Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[Rawls]

But how would that work in terms of the player's progression system? Do you just get guns and equipment that do +X amount of damage?

Well if it's skill based progression system you would get skill points and the improvement in skills would be your progression. Also addition financial resources / spoils of questing would lead to better gear. I hope gear is not level capped or locked or anything like that.

 

[Snowflakez]

Well if it's skill based progression system you would get skill points and the improvement in skills would be your progression. Also addition financial resources / spoils of questing would lead to better gear. I hope gear is not level capped or locked or anything like that.

Right, I'm just not sure that that would ever result in you "Steamrolling" over anyone. Which is fine by me, just saying. You may be able to take down street-level thugs easier (since they probably don't have many/any cybernetics or bulletproof vests) later on, but I feel that with a skill-based progression system, there's always an element of risk.

 

[SigilFey]

But how would that work in terms of the player's progression system? Do you just get guns and equipment that do +X amount of damage? What determines how easy/hard it is to steamroll enemies of any level?

That's a hard answer. It would depend on the mechanics. In M&M, it was special abilities, number of attacks per character each turn, familiarity with enemy weaknesses, etc. In something like Skyrim / Fallout, it'as all about the skills and numbers (taking less damage and dishing out more). For something like Dark Souls it's mostly gear and familiarity with the levels and enemy attack patterns.

For CP, I'm hoping it would be something like special maneuvers, ability to utilize the environment, and familiarity with enemy tactics. So the first time I walk down that alley, I get jumped by six enemies from "Joju's Gang" and have to sloppily fend them off. I'm leaning against the wall and bleeding at the end. Later, in a similar area, after numerous such attacks, Joju himself brings some of his best boys; I manage to take two of them out before they can get to me, then wipe out the rest of them in hand to hand using my new kung fu and take Joju out by hammering his head with a garbage can lid. Later on, I realize I'm in the gang's territory before anything happens; I grab a garbage can lid and offhandedly hammer the wall a few times, calling, "Sorry about Joju!" Shadowy forms stumble over each other as they sprint away from me down the alley.

 

[Sardukhar]

For CP, I'm hoping it would be something like special maneuvers, ability to utilize the environment, and familiarity with enemy tactics. So the first time I walk down that alley, I get jumped by six enemies from "Joju's Gang" and have to sloppily fend them off. I'm leaning against the wall and bleeding at the end. .

Probably you're dead, unless they were just messing with you and/or you're heavily borged.

Knife does 3 damage average, halves armour, keeps full damage. Plus strength bonus. So a single knife hit will do 5-6 damage from a ganger who isn't heavily borged. Much more from one who is borged or who is on combat drugs.

5 damage fills your Light damage track and puts you one into Serious. You are now at negatives to do anything and have to make a stun shock check. Also bleeding.

That's one hit and not a vitals hit, which doubles damage. There are six of them and they can go multiple times in 3 seconds, just like you. Stab, block, counter-attack, stab stab dead.

This doesn't take into effect a good BTM or good armour..but there is no guarantee you have those. Whereas they almost certainly have at least knives..and probably better.

This is PnP rules, but that's the gritty nasty nature of Cpunk combat. Multiple opponents vs one of you? You aren't set up and/or borged/geared to hell? You're done.

This illustrates what I'd rather not see in CP2077 - the video-gamey nature of fights.

Still, neat example and very "movie-cool". I liked the part at the end with the intimidation, too.

 

[Snowflakez]

Probably you're dead, unless they were just messing with you and/or you're heavily borged.

Knife does 3 damage average, halves armour, keeps full damage. Plus strength bonus. So a single knife hit will do 5-6 damage from a ganger who isn't heavily borged. Much more from one who is borged or who is on combat drugs.

5 damage fills your Light damage track and puts you one into Serious. You are now at negatives to do anything and have to make a stun shock check. Also bleeding.

That's one hit and not a vitals hit, which doubles damage. There are six of them and they can go multiple times in 3 seconds, just like you. Stab, block, counter-attack, stab stab dead.

This doesn't take into effect a good BTM or good armour..but there is no guarantee you have those. Whereas they almost certainly have at least knives..and probably better.

This is PnP rules, but that's the gritty nasty nature of Cpunk combat. Multiple opponents vs one of you? You aren't set up and/or borged/geared to hell? You're done.

This illustrates what I'd rather not see in CP2077 - the video-gamey nature of fights.

Still, neat example and very "movie-cool". I liked the part at the end with the intimidation, too.

Yes, so much this. I know CP2077 isn't going to be a perfect 1-to-1 translation of the PnP, but if there's one thing I desperately hope they include, it's some element of the FnFF system. It's such a core part of the experience that it would be a huge mistake not to take advantage of it in some way. I want to feel outgunned and outmatched - I want to use my wits to overcome my enemies early on, taking advantage of ambushes to get the drop on my enemies and even out 2v1 situations.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if their E3 trailer looks super fancy and badass - they need to get people hyped, after all. Shadow of War was a pretty difficult game, but all their pre-release gameplay had you one-shotting orcs with infinite finishers, even though that wasn't at all what the game was like.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yes, so much this. I know CP2077 isn't going to be a perfect 1-to-1 translation of the PnP, but if there's one thing I desperately hope they include, it's some element of the FnFF system...I wouldn't be surprised if their E3 trailer looks super fancy and badass

Oh I don't expect a 1 to 1 translation. The FNFF system itself is trying to render the nastiness of combat. I've -done- multiple attacker scenarios vs knife in Krav and they suuuuck. As well, IRL I've been jacked by an arsehole with a knife and that sucked.

The FNFF system does a good job of creating that dangerous atmosphere of being in a place you really don't want to.

I'd also like to see some flashy combat, but, you know, grounded in brutal reality. Lots of examples of that in media. Batman Begins. John Wick. The Duel. Etc.

It also doesn't have to be a difficult game - if you are aware,if you plan ahead, if you build your character for it, etc.

 

[SigilFey]

Probably you're dead, unless they were just messing with you and/or you're heavily borged.

Knife does 3 damage average, halves armour, keeps full damage. Plus strength bonus. So a single knife hit will do 5-6 damage from a ganger who isn't heavily borged. Much more from one who is borged or who is on combat drugs.

5 damage fills your Light damage track and puts you one into Serious. You are now at negatives to do anything and have to make a stun shock check. Also bleeding.

That's one hit and not a vitals hit, which doubles damage. There are six of them and they can go multiple times in 3 seconds, just like you. Stab, block, counter-attack, stab stab dead.

This doesn't take into effect a good BTM or good armour..but there is no guarantee you have those. Whereas they almost certainly have at least knives..and probably better.

This is PnP rules, but that's the gritty nasty nature of Cpunk combat. Multiple opponents vs one of you? You aren't set up and/or borged/geared to hell? You're done.

This illustrates what I'd rather not see in CP2077 - the video-gamey nature of fights.

Still, neat example and very "movie-cool". I liked the part at the end with the intimidation, too.

Easy. I just lean over to the DM and make a strong argument for my character's survival. It would go something like this:

"Come on. Come ooon..."

 

[Snowflakez]

Easy. I just lean over to the DM and make a strong argument for my character's survival. It would go something like this:

"Come on. Come ooon..."

In the context of D&D, it goes like this for me: "Okay, guess I'm rolling up a flamboyant Half-Orc bard with a penchant for croissants and crossdres- Oh my character didn't die after all? It was all a dream? AND I'm getting a magical staff? Excellent!"

 

[Suhiira]

Except that not having area limited by levels is an open world gameplay exploration issue.

That is more a problem with how enemy levels are implemented <clip>

The problem is everyone seems to expect some sort of level based gameplay system.

There are no "levels" in CP2020.

Yes, your character can (and should) improve with better skills and equipment as you progress. This is actually very very easy to implement when it comes to NPC encounters. Just assign a "score" to the characters current stats/skills/armor/weapons and give opponents a comparable one. There are no "increasing hit points" in CP2020 as you improve your character, there's only higher skills and better equipment. Give the exact same NPC you met at the beginning of the game higher skills and better gear and walla ... challenge.

Can NPCs die in one hit?
Of course.
So can your character.
Welcome to Cyberpunk!

I hear the bandits with glass armor from Oblivion calling again.... The point of character progression is that you get better. This is shown by earlier enemies becoming easier.

Yes, this was, is, a significant problem.

Fortunately unlike Oblivion CP2077 should not be gear centric (unless the shooter fans get their wish). So this isn't an issue. A medium caliber handgun is the same at the beginning of the game as it is at the end. No gear inflation problem. Skills matter more then equipment ... what a novel concept.

 

[Snowflakez]

Fortunately unlike Oblivion CP2077 should not be gear centric (unless the shooter fans get their wish). So this isn't an issue. A medium caliber handgun is the same at the beginning of the game as it is at the end. No gear inflation problem. Skills matter more then equipment ... what a novel concept.

Curious, would you play the game if it was gear centric? I'm thinking I probably still would, but I'd be pretty disappointed.

I figure the temptation to do it that way must be very real from a mass market appeal standpoint, but CDPR has never really been one to go with the grain. And then I remember what Mike Pondsmith said about being approached by a ton of other developers before who just didn't "get" it until he met CDPR. CDPR said, a while back, "we had communism and cyberpunk", and that really struck a chord with me. It makes me feel like a lot of my fears are probably unfounded.

These guys are fans. They care about the source material, and Mike signed off on it with them. If he has faith in them, I feel like I should too, but there's always that lingering doubt... Time will tell if it turns out to be accurate or not.

 

[Sardukhar]

In the context of D&D, it goes like this for me: "Okay, guess I'm rolling up a flamboyant Half-Orc bard with a penchant for croissants and crossdres- Oh my character didn't die after all? It was all a dream? AND I'm getting a magical staff? Excellent!"

Ye-ah...and your Half Orc just caught fire. And died. Sad. Oh well. Although honestly, that sounds like a COOL character concept. I would totally bonus you XP for it. Especially as the bard diverted the party on some "absolutely essential" side quest across town..the the finest pastry shop in Waterdeep. HIL arious.

Or in CPunk,

"Egads. Well, Trauma Team had to land their (stealthed) AV-4 SOMEwhere, didn't they? Why were you walking there?"


Suhiira
Cyberpunk 2020 absolutely has gear inflation. It's just that all the gear is available at the start...only you can't a) afford it or b) find it yet. You know this.

But yeah, a COT-rigged, accurized, re-ported medium handgun firing DPU or Frag Flechettes kicks -ass- over a bog-standard 10mm not doing those things.

Total gear bloat. It's GREAT! If managed properly.

 

[Snowflakez]

Ye-ah...and your Half Orc just caught fire. And died. Sad. Oh well. Although honestly, that sounds like a COOL character concept. I would totally bonus you XP for it. Especially as the bard diverted the party on some "absolutely essential" side quest across town..the the finest pastry shop in Waterdeep. HIL arious.

Or in CPunk,

"Egads. Well, Trauma Team had to land their (stealthed) AV-4 SOMEwhere, didn't they? Why were you walking there?"

Do you do any DMing?

But yeah, a COT-rigged, accurized, re-ported medium handgun firing DPU or Frag Flechettes kicks -ass- over a bog-standard 10mm not doing those things.

Also, I only know what about half of these words mean.

 

[Sardukhar]

Do you do any DMing?

Sadly for my players, YES! More recently now I'm back in the city. I run SLA Industries - sort of horror cyberpunk on speed - and of course Cyberpunk 2020. Although I'm going to reboot that campaign as the Team picked a premise to annoy one of the players and I'm not really into running a Spanish Counterterror team.

Also, I only know what about half of these words mean.

Oh, sorry. I can't always track who does and doesn't play. I forgets!

COT is a very-accurate smartgun link so you can see what your gun sees - my favourite trick is to fire it remotely. Accurized and re-ported is from Solo of Fortune and it means the weapon is yet more accurate and reliable. DPU is Depleted Uranium Rounds, which do varying effects depending on what supplement your Ref likes but all are nasty. Frag Flechette are very illegal rounds from Orbit that penetrate soft armours and then explode, halving soft armour protection like an AP round but retaining full damage.

All-in-all a serious problem for 90% of people being shot at by someone using this upgraded medium handgun. They will fire very accurately at small targets at high rates of fire, easily penetrating the most common armour out there and even if the target is in hard armour, a shot to the face or any exposed area will still shred the Skinweave that most people rely on.

 

[eraser7278]

Ye-ah...and your Half Orc just caught fire. And died. Sad. Oh well. Although honestly, that sounds like a COOL character concept. I would totally bonus you XP for it. Especially as the bard diverted the party on some "absolutely essential" side quest across town..the the finest pastry shop in Waterdeep. HIL arious.

Or in CPunk,

"Egads. Well, Trauma Team had to land their (stealthed) AV-4 SOMEwhere, didn't they? Why were you walking there?"


Suhiira
Cyberpunk 2020 absolutely has gear inflation. It's just that all the gear is available at the start...only you can't a) afford it or b) find it yet. You know this.

But yeah, a COT-rigged, accurized, re-ported medium handgun firing DPU or Frag Flechettes kicks -ass- over a bog-standard 10mm not doing those things.

Total gear bloat. It's GREAT! If managed properly.

then again, adding all that stuff to a 10mm pistol still doesn't make it as effective as a rifle. sure the accuracy mod might not be stellar, but a 200eb AKMS still had a long range of 200m and thus a short range of 50m... meaning a person with a rifle is making diff 15 checks to hit you at 50m while you make diff 25 checks to return fire with your pistola. when it comes to firefights, you gotta run what you brung and hope you brung enough

 

[Sardukhar]

then again, adding all that stuff to a 10mm pistol still doesn't make it as effective as a rifle. [/video]

So true. You can pretty it up and snazz the hell out of it, but it's still a 10mm autopistol. That guy with the Militech Ronin will do you at 200 yards and go home. If you want to win, prepare for the game.

Although, eraser, you see the stats on some of the higher calibre pistols? The .454. and .50?

Here are the 5.56 ballistics with the SS109, standard for US Army:

62 gr (4 g) 0SS109 FMJBT

945 m/s (3,100 ft/s)

1,767 J (1,303 ft⋅lbf)

And the .454 Casull:

240 gr (16 g) XTP JHP Hornady

580 m/s (1,900 ft/s)

2,607 J

and that's the -lightest bullet, the 240 grain. The bigger 300 grain plus has even more tissue damage, admittedly moving even slower.

So, yeah, beyond 100m, rifle for sure, but up to that or even 200m if you are a great pistol shot and that .454 hits harder than the 5.56. Most non-warfare firefights are at, what, 10m or less?

Of course, then you have the 7.62 x51 or .308..

175 gr (11 g) M118 Long Range BTHP

2,580 ft/s (790 m/s)

2,586 ft⋅lbf (3,506 J)

Boy I do love this round. You can take nearly any North American game with it. Really any NA game I think.

Anyway, yeah, big pistols always surprise me how punch they pack.

 

[eraser7278]

idk how flat those big bore pistols shoot, but from my own experience shooting 9mm from a longslide glock 34, at a steel IPSC target and no noticeable wind... it still took me half a mag to "walk" my rounds on target by watching the impacts in the dirt. Sure there's always "that guy" who can pull it off and make the rest of us look bad... his name is Jerry Miculek, his name is Jerry Miculek, his name is Jerry Miculek. Saint Browning be praised!

 

[Snowflakez]

Sadly for my players, YES! More recently now I'm back in the city. I run SLA Industries - sort of horror cyberpunk on speed - and of course Cyberpunk 2020. Although I'm going to reboot that campaign as the Team picked a premise to annoy one of the players and I'm not really into running a Spanish Counterterror team.

Oh, sorry. I can't always track who does and doesn't play. I forgets!

COT is a very-accurate smartgun link so you can see what your gun sees - my favourite trick is to fire it remotely. Accurized and re-ported is from Solo of Fortune and it means the weapon is yet more accurate and reliable. DPU is Depleted Uranium Rounds, which do varying effects depending on what supplement your Ref likes but all are nasty. Frag Flechette are very illegal rounds from Orbit that penetrate soft armours and then explode, halving soft armour protection like an AP round but retaining full damage.

All-in-all a serious problem for 90% of people being shot at by someone using this upgraded medium handgun. They will fire very accurately at small targets at high rates of fire, easily penetrating the most common armour out there and even if the target is in hard armour, a shot to the face or any exposed area will still shred the Skinweave that most people rely on.

Ever considered running an online campaign? I need to get some 2020 in my life. It sounds like a blast. And thanks for the explanation, makes a lot more sense now.

 

[Suhiira]

Curious, would you play the game if it was gear centric? I'm thinking I probably still would, but I'd be pretty disappointed.

Probably, W3 was and I played that.
But like you, I wouldn't be happy about it.

Suhiira Cyberpunk 2020 absolutely has gear inflation. It's just that all the gear is available at the start...only you can't a) afford it or b) find it yet. You know this.

But yeah, a COT-rigged, accurized, re-ported medium handgun firing DPU or Frag Flechettes kicks -ass- over a bog-standard 10mm not doing those things.

Total gear bloat. It's GREAT! If managed properly.

There's a dramatic difference between different gear with different properties and gear being given new or improved properties.

A black power musket and an AK are both rifles ... but vastly different in terms of capabilities. You don't add a laser sight, foregrip, and recoil compensating stock to the musket and it suddenly starts performing as well as, or better then, the AK.

idk how flat those big bore pistols shoot <clip>

Well ...
My personal handgun is a stainless steel (because it's EASY to clean, doesn't rust, and is almost immune to corrosion) Ruger Security Six .357 with a 6in barrel. I have it sighted in at 100m. Can I hit a man sized target at 100m firing from anything but a bench rest? Only if I'm very lucky. But trajectory wise it's pretty much flat out to that distance. I hit just a little high at realistic handgun ranges (5-25m) but not enough to matter as I'm not shooting competition.

 

[Sardukhar]

idk how flat those big bore pistols shoot, but from my own experience shooting 9mm from a longslide glock 34, at a steel IPSC target and no noticeable wind... it still took me half a mag to "walk" my rounds on target by watching the impacts in the dirt. Sure there's always "that guy" who can pull it off and make the rest of us look bad... his name is Jerry Miculek, his name is Jerry Miculek, his name is Jerry Miculek. Saint Browning be praised!
]

Yeah, you have to know what you're doing for sure. Although my pistol marksman brother in law put 9/10 center of target from my .357 aaalll the time. Me? 3. Or 4. Unless I'd been to the range a lot recently. Then maybe 6. *&^%$ Derrick.

Ever considered running an online campaign? I need to get some 2020 in my life. It sounds like a blast. And thanks for the explanation, makes a lot more sense now.

I'd love to and did for awhile. Then time. The Real Life one(s) I run are very irregular. Su has one up and running in the forums, though!

A black power musket and an AK are both rifles ... but vastly different in terms of capabilities. You don't add a laser sight, foregrip, and recoil compensating stock to the musket and it suddenly starts performing as well as, or better then, the AK.

I dunno. The BP people might argue the point because BOY HOWDY are they a determined lot. I haven't fired one though.

I don't think your comparison is that fair, since a musket isn't necessarily rifled. One of those older rifles, though...free-floating barrel, modern stock, good bipod...might start to chase Rem 700 results?

I hit just a little high at realistic handgun ranges (5-25m) but not enough to matter as I'm not shooting competition.

Yeah, the .357 Sig Glock I fire is pretty flat. Not a rifle, though, as eraser notes. Rifles rock hard for accuracy and still if I wasn't sure what I'd be facing in 2077, I'd take my RFB for sure.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't think your comparison is that fair, since a musket isn't necessarily rifled. One of those older rifles, though...free-floating barrel, modern stock, good bipod...might start to chase Rem 700 results?

True.

But the weapon that was most favored by the Confederates, and the best sniper rifle of the war, was the British-made Whitworth. Designed in 1850, the Whitworth was a unique solution to a problem that plagued all rifled guns of the time: as the bullet went down the barrel, the rifling grooves cut into the lead, imparting its spin but also measurably slowing the bullet down and reducing its range. Whitworth therefore designed his rifle with a barrel that was hexagonal in cross section--then designed his own special .45-caliber bullet that was also hexagonal and nestled snugly inside the barrel. This ingenious arrangement allowed him to add tighter rifling of one full turn every twenty inches, giving the bullet a greater spin than other barrels of the same length, and at greater speed. The Whitworth rifle was unmatched by any other gun in the world for accuracy and range. With iron sights it was accurate to at least 800 yards; with telescopic sights it was deadly at ranges of over a mile.

But I used the smooth bore on purpose.

While the example above is almost every bit as good as a modern sniper rifle in terms of range it undoubtedly compares rather poorly in terms of rate of fire, probably "pin point" accuracy, maintainability, and you'd have to make your own ammo and powder (put modern smokeless powder in it and it would probably explode).