The Purpose of CA Spies: Cantarella, Frightener, Thaler, Udalryk and Yaevinn

[Khreygond]

I know that one valid usecase is, if I win the first round with equal cards, in second round I can start with the spy and go on till the opponent's last card and then either win the round if I can or pass so that in third round I have a card advantage.

Also, I know that NR can use the spy to lose with more than 20 points and when the opponent passes the Dun Banners come and with a single card they can win R1. Similar thing Brouver does with the Cleaver thingy.

These two are specific to a faction/leader/deck. But apart from this, how to use a Spy. More specifically, in which scenario is a CA Spy useful in R1, R2, R3 in general? And in which scenario should I Mulligan the Spy if I have drawn one.

I have read in one post that the OP recommended using ADC to tutor the Spy, which is like giving 15 points to the opponent which didn't make sense to me. I am currently playing without CA Spy since I don't find them useful other than in R2 if I have won R1 which is too conditional.

Spies are crucial in this meta, because having the final say often decides everything. If you play your spy and your opponent does not, or if you play it at the right time, you end up being the last person to play a card. That opens a whole lot of possibilities, like Geralt: Igni, Mandrake-ing the highest unit (if your opponent is holding onto it and he plays after you, you will have to mandrake a less suitable target), Ciri: Nova without being afraid of the Scorch, etc.

that's why ADC is crucial. I've lost matches for the simple reason that I did not draw my spy. Like you said, win first round a card down, play a spy on round 2 and exhaust your opponent. This has happened to me many times because I did not draw my spy or the tutor. And I've lost. As to how to mitigate the value you give your opponent, I'll give you a few more ways:

Aside from NR and ST like you said, there's Frightener into Hazard decks. it makes a hazard tick more and it lengthens the round.

With Nilfgaard, you can use Imperas or Venendal to reduce the spy's value. Impera Enforcers and Brigades will be triggered when you play it so effectively you give fewer points to your opponent. Also you can reveal it in your hand and use a venendal elite as a 13 point unit that turns the spy into a STR 1 Card Advantage play

With Skellige, it's a bit less obvious case. If you are playing axemen, it lengthens the round and you can place it on a row with hazards. Though the skellige spy's value is more about discarding something, and drawing something else, effectively making the discarded unit available for revival.

Spy tutors are crucial. If you play a spy on an empty board, that's 13 points, or 15 if you use ADC. With Rainfarn however, it's 8. With Hym it's 10. And since the nominal bronze value is 11, you can then catch up with just 1 card if timed right.

In short, there is NOTHING more useful than a card advantage spy in the current meta. I've tried my spell'tael deck which is old school and doesn't run Yaevinn and it is lackluster partly because of that.

Also, you should use ADC in 2 cases 1) when you can make up for the increased value you give your opponent with 1 or 2 cards. That's most often the case with Reveal early on. It doesn't mind giving 15 points to the opponent when Vattier into 2 Fire Scorpions and 2 golems is like, 27, more with Roach and Mangonels.

2) When that will end up giving you extra value. Thaler in NR decks triggers the dun banner like you said. The 2 extra points are 2 more points in assisting with that.

You want to mulligan the spy in a short round 3 though. It's highly unlikely that it will draw you something good enough that without setup, is more than 13 or 15 points.

 

[rrc]

Spies are crucial in this meta, because having the final say often decides everything. If you play your spy and your opponent does not, or if you play it at the right time, you end up being the last person to play a card. That opens a whole lot of possibilities, like Geralt: Igni, Mandrake-ing the highest unit (if your opponent is holding onto it and he plays after you, you will have to mandrake a less suitable target), Ciri: Nova without being afraid of the Scorch, etc.

that's why ADC is crucial. I've lost matches for the simple reason that I did not draw my spy. Like you said, win first round a card down, play a spy on round 2 and exhaust your opponent. This has happened to me many times because I did not draw my spy or the tutor. And I've lost. As to how to mitigate the value you give your opponent, I'll give you a few more ways:

Aside from NR and ST like you said, there's Frightener into Hazard decks. it makes a hazard tick more and it lengthens the round.

With Nilfgaard, you can use Imperas or Venendal to reduce the spy's value. Impera Enforcers and Brigades will be triggered when you play it so effectively you give fewer points to your opponent. Also you can reveal it in your hand and use a venendal elite as a 13 point unit that turns the spy into a STR 1 Card Advantage play

With Skellige, it's a bit less obvious case. If you are playing axemen, it lengthens the round and you can place it on a row with hazards. Though the skellige spy's value is more about discarding something, and drawing something else, effectively making the discarded unit available for revival.

Spy tutors are crucial. If you play a spy on an empty board, that's 13 points, or 15 if you use ADC. With Rainfarn however, it's 8. With Hym it's 10. And since the nominal bronze value is 11, you can then catch up with just 1 card if timed right.

In short, there is NOTHING more useful than a card advantage spy in the current meta. I've tried my spell'tael deck which is old school and doesn't run Yaevinn and it is lackluster partly because of that.

Also, you should use ADC in 2 cases 1) when you can make up for the increased value you give your opponent with 1 or 2 cards. That's most often the case with Reveal early on. It doesn't mind giving 15 points to the opponent when Vattier into 2 Fire Scorpions and 2 golems is like, 27, more with Roach and Mangonels.

2) When that will end up giving you extra value. Thaler in NR decks triggers the dun banner like you said. The 2 extra points are 2 more points in assisting with that.

You want to mulligan the spy in a short round 3 though. It's highly unlikely that it will draw you something good enough that without setup, is more than 13 or 15 points.

Thanks ser2440! Makes a lot of sense. Seems like NR, NG, and SK has much better way to tutor the Spy and better usefulness.

 

[Khreygond]

Thanks ser2440! Makes a lot of sense. Seems like NR, NG, and SK has much better way to tutor the Spy and better usefulness.

ST has their leader (Brouver). And because it's a leader, you will always have him available, a huge advantage. Monsters not only have the worst spy, they also have no real way to tutor it, aside from Ge'els, which is random but at least it draws a guaranteed gold.

 

[4RM3D]

ST has their leader (Brouver). And because it's a leader, you will always have him available, a huge advantage. Monsters not only have the worst spy, they also have no real way to tutor it, aside from Ge'els, which is random but at least it draws a guaranteed gold.

Skellige's spy is worse than the Monster one in certain aspects, depending on the type of deck you play. Anyhow, another advantage of Yaevinn is that he can tutor gold spells, which can be guaranteed when you don't use bronze/silver spells, making it a good target for Royal Decree.

 

[rrc]

Skellige's spy is worse than the Monster one in certain aspects, depending on the type of deck you play. Anyhow, another advantage of Yaevinn is that he can tutor gold spells, which can be guaranteed when you don't use bronze/silver spells, making it a good target for Royal Decree.

That is an awesome perspective 4RM3D! But having no special card, is that even a viable deck? Is there any deck which has no special cards other than Royal Decree for SC?

 

[Khreygond]

That is an awesome perspective 4RM3D! But having no special card, is that even a viable deck? Is there any deck which has no special cards other than Royal Decree for SC?

There is the brouver shupe deck that has no bronze special card. Also, there's always using Yaevinn after you've played your bronze special cards via Elven Merc and the like to draw what you want

 

[Void_Singer]

There are really only 3 general use cases, and some specialty modifiers for using CA spies...
Case 1: you want to inflate an opponents row
this is good for following up with cards like Igni, Dudu, or Letho/Regis, Pop Dunn Banners for additional thinning... it can occasionally be used to match another creature for a higher value scorch, or even to block one if all your units are below the spy's strength. works well in any round that you have a follow up.

Case 2: You are either ahead by enough that it doesn't matter, or you want to bait your opponent into playing more cards
pretty self explanatory, in the first case you are thinning by one card, and in the second you're sacrificing your lead for thinning to draw out more opponent cards. this is usually a R1 or late R2 play, but the first half can work in R3 if you're searching for your win condition (AKA hail Mary Pass looking for the case 1 condition).

Case 3: changing the card advantage
this is actually the more dangerous of use cases if you aren't doing the above or below actions... you are betting that thinning will either give you a card more valuable than the points your opponent gets from it, or that it'll let you push out the rounds play order so you have final control with the last card. In R1 or R2 it's often a sacrifice play, you're throwing the round to gain thinning and change the play order. In R3 it usually protective, you are either trying to guarantee you play last (so your finisher card cannot be answered by your opponent), or trying to guarantee that your finisher can affect any/all cards your opponent has in play

specialty modifiers:
things can get weird here, and it's generally about abusing some mechanic of the spy, but boil down to either using the cards unique effect (row stack onto weather for Frightener, discard For Udalryk, pulling specials with Yaevin), Auto removal after (sometimes before) thinning (Canterella/Venedal-or-other-spy-killer, Yaevin/Cleaver, Frightener/Grofessional), Or bricking your Opponents draws (R1/2 usually via Milva, or Assire). they can also serve as buff sources in hand for Vrihead Vanguards, Wyverrn Shields, and Alghouls, oh I also forgot Stephan Skellan for a guaranteed tutor with buff.

Best scenario is to combine uses... the more you can get out of it, the better. I personally don't use them in a deck unless I can near guarantee at least 2 and preferably 3 benefits from including it.

PS
it's actually a bad use to dump it in R2 and pass after winning R1. A dry pass would give you the same CA, and you could have literally any other card that thins to replace it. It's not great for R2 bleeding either since any other card would be a more effective bleed on your opponent.

 

[rrc]

There are really only 3 general use cases, and some specialty modifiers for using CA spies...
...
PS
it's actually a bad use to dump it in R2 and pass after winning R1. A dry pass would give you the same CA, and you could have literally any other card that thins to replace it. It's not great for R2 bleeding either since any other card would be a more effective bleed on your opponent.
...

Thanks Void_Singer. It was very helpful. While I agree almost everything you mentioned, I disagree your last point. Lets say I have won the first round and I have the Spy. Instead of dry-passing, I start the round with the spy and continue on till the end. If the opponent doesn't have Spy, the opponent will have to play the last card while I still have one card left. Now, at this point, if I can win, I will deploy my last card or I pass. Now, in R3, the opponent has 1 card and has to go first and I will have 2 cards in hand. How is this not game-winning? Of all the use cases of CA spy, R2 bleeding is the best, isn't it? (or does R2 bleeding means something else? )

 

[Void_Singer]

if you continue R2 with the intention of bleeding, the opponent only has to keep playing until they believe you can't beat them with what you have left... which is made more difficult by giving them points. now if you're going for a win, it's the R3 scenario where you have a win condition that requires CA to guarantee. but that's the difference between a bleed and win attempt.