Skinweave ...

[eraser7278]

Skinweave is ONLY 12 SP! You can get a T-Shirt that does that! A T-Shirt! Or a bandanna with 10 SP! I'm serious, by the way. 10 SP. On a bandanna.

You can get a Tanaka topcoat with 16 SP - and look GOOD.

You can buy jeans - jeans - with 16 SP.

This is Cyberpunk, not Weeflerunnerpunk - there be mean weapons out there. Skinweave just isn't the be-all and end-all. Not even close.

but the thing that makes skinweave special is that sp12 doesn't count as a layer. so even with the layering rules you can strap on sp16 gear over your sp12 skinweave and achieve effectively sp21 all around. not saying that is bad or wrong, but it does have some major effects on how the game plays out. pistols smaller than 12mm are merely range toys for cubicle dwellers, cut down rifles in duffel bags become standard practice (the only big decision being do you ETE for extra penetration, or up the ROF and get drum mags for hosing down the block), and then people start scouring the rules for broken shit that will bypass SP all together...

come on sard, if you've played this game half as much as you claim you must be hip to the fact that skinweave punches well above what it's SP12 weight would seem to suggest

 

[Sardukhar]

come on sard, if you've played this game half as much as you claim you must be hip to the fact that skinweave punches well above what it's SP12 weight would seem to suggest

Sure it doesn't count as a layer, but what if it did? What's the REF pen on wearing that shirt plus that trench and getting that SP21 without SKW? -1 Ref. That's it. You can get SP 21 with that Tanaka and a custom-built SP 12 T-shirt, Ref Pen -1. Skinweave saves you the minus one is all.

Just not game-breaking in any way. A small edge for those that think ahead. Which is the idea in CP2020.


If you hit this guy in the chest with a cyberkick with myomar for 4D6 damage, +3 from Body and +6 for MA, he's going to take an average of 23-24 damage per hit, before BTM, and all three layers will be penned, per hit.

Defeated by AP rounds and weapons, too. That SP of 21 becomes 10 pretty quick. Add a spike heel to that kick and it's gaaame over.

And remember that serious edged weapons, as well as certain rounds, pen soft armours without halving damage.

Shoot him with, say, Nova .338 Citygun, (far, far from the best pistol for this task) loaded with AP and you'll average pen all three layers form the first hit from your RoF3, do +1 next hit, +2 third hit. Halving damage won't matter, it's minimum per hit anyway. Won't kill him/her, not this round, but you are now bleeding him with your .338 revolver. Pretty good against a guy with 21 SP. Bring a real gun, 4D6 or 6D6+2 for the bigger pistols, and then it gets messsssy fast. Or shoot him in the eye.

If you loaded API, one of my personal favs, or DPU rounds or (illegal as hell) Frag- flechette, well. You know the rest. Each of those API rounds is doing 1D6 armour-ignoring damage for the first round, then 1D6/2 the next. And you might set fire to his pretty clothes! God I love these things.


Or start going for unarmored sections with your jacked up accuracy from your COT sight and Low-Imp cables and cyber eye.

Although you make an excellent point, I think, about a simple fix to make SKW a non-issue for 90% of people - just make it an encumbering layer.

Honestly, though, there are so many ways and it's so easy to kill players in 2020, a -1 Ref penalty saving just isn't that exciting to bother with.

 

[eraser7278]

considering it's almost impossible (FBC, euro-bio, space tech not withstanding) in a by the book game of cp2020 to raise your ref, it's rare that an offensively oriented character will trade away ref in such a cavalier manner.

i will grant you that when armor degradation is used, this becomes less of an issue. it's been infrequently applied in my experience, but that's not the game's fault per se.

FF ammo is one of the only ways i've found to make pocket rocket "Back Up Guns" viable in most games. for the times that i'm not running a solo who builds their wardrobe around their load-out and just wants something they can pocket carry in case shit goes down. it just seems weird to me that the M&P shield 9mm that i'm waiting to take possession of (damn 10 day waiting period), which is quite popular as a carry gun today... is utterly useless unless you use highly illegal explosive rounds in the dark future. the people that EDC a weapon the size of a 12mm... you could probably count on one hand.

glad to see you share my love of API when i'm building on a budget, an AKMS, 75 round drum mags and API make for my favorite bargain basement street-sweeper.

 

[weregeld]

In most of my games its not too unbalancing, bioware is uncommon and only available in certain places in game that are all legal clinics (black market cyberclinics are rare and good ones are pricy.) few players can afford it starting out (most don't have the testicular fortitude to sell out) and getting it is a fun sidequest for nights I don't have a full crew

most low level threats nomads, street trash weefle solos city cops and such can't afford it or lack access to it.

moderate threats, boosters ,corp cops ,mid level solos may or may not . boosters are all about metal and most bioware isn't there style corp cops may or may not depending on if ther company springs for it (remember people are a commodity in cyberpunk) mid level solos and other edgerunners had BETTER have it.

High level threats, military troops senior boosters, high level edgrunners , full borgs your ONLY thinking about skinweave at this point .

mostly holdouts have to be concealable but still effective what became popular in my game were ETE revolvers, powerfull enough to be dangerious and with mods still farly accurate and most cops don't freak when they find them (in my game ETE isn't a noticeable mod unless you look close or pull the trigger. my latest solo carries a 45 auto and 2 clips as his dally carry gun and an ETE 357 with a speedloader as his backup.

 

[Sardukhar]

considering it's almost impossible (FBC, euro-bio, space tech not withstanding) in a by the book game of cp2020 to raise your ref, it's rare that an offensively oriented character will trade away ref in such a cavalier manner.

i will grant you that when armor degradation is used, this becomes less of an issue. it's been infrequently applied in my experience, but that's not the game's fault per se.
.

Yeah, it's frequently missed and a pain to book keep, but it's really important in terms of balance. When I forget, I just guess at the pen I missed and then apply it on the next hit - catastrophic failure.

It's not that ref isn't of tremendous value - it totally is, we've all struggled for that extra 1 or 2 points and I curse that Sandevistan is 1pt higher than Kerenzikov but has that cursed start time and duration - it's more that -1 becomes another penalty applied only under certain circumstances, kind of like moving targets or slippery surface or whatever.

I dunno. I used to dither back and forth on this one - is the SP worth the EV? Even excluding SKW, you still face that choice. I've won FNFF gunfights on only a point or two, so it can matter....then again, I've lost on just a few points of damage and gone down, too. Choices, urgh.

mostly holdouts have to be concealable but still effective what became popular in my game were ETE revolvers, powerfull enough to be dangerious and with mods still farly accurate and most cops don't freak when they find them (in my game ETE isn't a noticeable mod unless you look close or pull the trigger. my latest solo carries a 45 auto and 2 clips as his dally carry gun and an ETE 357 with a speedloader as his backup.

Yeah, a lot of these issues are kind of dependent on how much the Ref bears down. Is wearing an armoured T Shirt and Overcoat gauche? Does it make you a target? Is Skinweave the mark of a coward or a pro? How often do people get A/N checks to spot concealed weapons?

I think it depends on setting. In Cont. Europe and Japan, for example, a duffle bag with Eraser's AKMS and API would be a problem and quite possibly spotted if not well hidden. Same for the mutliple armoured layers. SKW and a .12mm pistol might be a much better call.

In Night City, though, the AKMS and Gibson plus Skinweave would only raise eyebrows in the Corp Center, and not even then if you have the right ID.

And some places in the world, you wear or even stack Metalgear with SKW and an armoured overcoat, even with the REF penalties, because it's that kind of place.

 

[weregeld]

skinweave kinda got a bad rap in my game because of an incident early on when a PC bought it because skinweave don"t help when the booster punches you in the skull with a sledgehammer ! But most of my calls as GM come as a push for roleplaying, scanways are common in affluent areas and large commercial areas like sports arenas and mallplexes more armor and large guns tends to get you hassled by everyone. I tend to reward sneaky bastards.

 

[Suhiira]

That's really the thing tho.
If your campaign allows characters to run around in SWAT/Bomb Squad level armor as their day-to-day street clothes I'd say you have bigger problems then their SP to worry about.
It's been made clear (several times) the authorities in my game take a very dim view of "normal" people walking the street with military grade hardware, thus an alley mugger with a 9mm, while perhaps not a serious threat, isn't lightly ignored.
You allow characters to walk around with high SP armor you create a campaign where everyone has to use high caliber AP ammo because anything less is pointless. Now you may will like a campaign where people walk the streets with assault rifles and grenades, and that's just fine. But don't assume everyone likes their campaigns that way, or that there's any reason it "has" to be that way.

 

[Sardukhar]

Now you may will like a campaign where people walk the streets with assault rifles and grenades, and that's just fine. But don't assume everyone likes their campaigns that way, or that there's any reason it "has" to be that way.

Wellll..again I have to point out I don't need assault grade weapons to kill people in Skinweave, or even SKW + armour. You just don't. Pick the right ammunition, use the right skills, drive the mean car, hit them in the right place, plant the right booby trap...

You in no way need assault weapons to stop someone who can generally survive 9mm. 9mm is a very, very old round and Cyberpunk is a cutting-edge kind of style-game. If your ancient sidearm is really that much of a threat on the mean streets of 2020, why did anyone bother to develop API rounds or monoblades or heavy flechette pistols or paintball guns of death or...

Also, if a Cyberpunk game isn't dangerous and deadly and chock full of near future weapons, it's less Cyberpunk, I would say, yes.

If you artificially limit what the corebooks create the world with, aren't you therefor reducing the Cyberpunk 2020 flavour of that world?

Plus, when Refs remove tech or skills or what-have-you from the game, it generally diminishes the game for me.

And, to reiterate, although a stock 9mm firing 1940s era tech shouldn't be a serious threat in 2020, no, it can still kill you really easily if you aren't prepped for it.

2D6 damage to the head means 7-8 damage on average. Before doubling. Which means most of the time, you're dead. To the chest, that's still enough to put you all the way or nearly all the way through Serious Wound state, badly hurt and bleeding out. Not counting BTM, of course.

 

[Suhiira]

Cyberpunk is about attitude not hardware.

And I don't recall saying anything about limiting the overall availability of armor/weapons ... just their day-to-day use as street clothes.

 

[cycoholic]

Cyberpunk is about attitude not hardware.

Not quite. While the 'punk' bit is indeed about the attitude (and style), the 'Cyber' bit does indeed indicate that hardware, preferably that grafter into your meat, is also desirable.

 

[atomowyturysta]

So if everyone wears skinweave and SP 10 T-shirts and bandanas why would the vast majority of law enforcement and security use weapons that have no chance of doing any harm to them.
Skinweave - experimental hitech hi gene damage risk stuff. 100k e$+ cost.
Armored tshirt - similar materials as above no risk to health but pricey. ~5k cost.
Armoured bandana. Try to wrap somebody's head with a kevlar vest and shot him with a 9mm. No penetration. Skull shattered brain damage probably the same if not more serious than without bandana.
I've been playing CP for 20ys now and only character I lost was the one whou used skinweave, kevlar t-shirt and panzer bandanas.
Play without some absurd things is really better. You players. How often do you encounter an opposing force with 9mm? Probably never. The fluff states that regular cop carries some 9mm or 10mm but every single cop you encounter carries .50 cal Why? Because skinweave
But of course everyone can play as he/she likes. With or without skinweave or kevlar t-shirt. Why not?

 

[jacqsynn]

So if everyone wears skinweave and SP 10 T-shirts and bandanas why would the vast majority of law enforcement and security use weapons that have no chance of doing any harm to them.
Skinweave - experimental hitech hi gene damage risk stuff. 100k e$+ cost.
Armored tshirt - similar materials as above no risk to health but pricey. ~5k cost.
Armoured bandana. Try to wrap somebody's head with a kevlar vest and shot him with a 9mm. No penetration. Skull shattered brain damage probably the same if not more serious than without bandana.
I've been playing CP for 20ys now and only character I lost was the one whou used skinweave, kevlar t-shirt and panzer bandanas.
Play without some absurd things is really better. You players. How often do you encounter an opposing force with 9mm? Probably never. The fluff states that regular cop carries some 9mm or 10mm but every single cop you encounter carries .50 cal Why? Because skinweave
But of course everyone can play as he/she likes. With or without skinweave or kevlar t-shirt. Why not?

Skinweave is why the cops in the police supplement carry 12mm, that is why like I said no skinweave in my games anymore. I also do not allow PC fullbody conversions or ACPA. Now never said I wouldn't throw that at a PC but I am mean that way.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah. Night City cops do NOT carry lightweight rounds. Standard issue is the Dual Purpose round, that is either armour piercing or regular for best damage depending what it hits. They have a wide variety of other muntions as well for their sidearms.

As for bigger threats, the Hurricane Assault Shotgun is one of the best in the game and just deadly. From Protect and Serve, the R.Tal Law Enforcement supplement.

This is not 1982 New York. It's Night City, circa 2020. Skinweave? Yeah, it's two grand to buy, costs you some of your humanity and is expensive to repair when penetrated, but might just save your life. Light armour jacket costs $150. Wear one of those, too.

What do the cops think about their job and odds? Here it is, in their own words:

View attachment 7900

 

[weregeld]

the Armored bandannas were always bs in my opinion to be any real protection they'd need padding to be effective and look like a leather beanie. jut shoot them in the face

citycops in my game carry 12mm handguns and shotguns with gellslugs and underslung microwavers (the shotguns let them pretend to try to capture suspects)
story wise skinweave is in the province of pros due to price and availability black market biotec is hard to come by if you haven't sold out to a corp.

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah I ignore the armored bandannas too, they're purely a piece of "game rules tech" with essentially zero basis in reality.

 

[eraser7278]

i think you underestimate the amount of R&D going into making armor stronger, lighter and easier to wear. synthetic spider silk, graphene, and others developments have the potential to give us the sp10 bandana in the next decade or so. by modern standards, sure it seems silly. i've got a pair of old level 2 police vests lying around and there's no way in hell i would want anything that hot and bulky strapped to my head... it's cumbersome enough to wear that shit on my torso. but we're not talking modern kevlar, we're talking future aramids from an era when other fanciful leaps of technology have likewise taken place (direct man/machine neural interface, the birth of AI, human cloning, a sustainable colony on the moon...)


you know, thinking about how hot my old kevlar is just reminded me of one way a sadistic GM chose to deal with skinweave. instead of saying no, he said are you sure... at the time that phrase didn't sound the same alarm bells it now does, but i digress. so he let those that wanted it get their skinweave on, and the higher level stuff from chrome 2 even. then he casually pointed out that the game was set in California, and that climate change had made their already steamy summers even worse. but screw all that exposition bullshit, we were immune to anything less than a heavy caliber pistol. then came the summer... you see, the way modern soft bodyarmor works is multiple layers of VERY tightly woven fibers that catch the projectile and then spread that kinetic energy over a larger area. by the reasoning of this GM, and i can't really fault his logic, anything sufficiently tight enough to stop the ingress of a bullet would also be tight enough to inhibit the outflow of perspiration and further serve to hold more heat inside the body. so after a few days of ice baths and sprinting from one air-conditioned habitat to the next, we decided to ditch our skinweave... and the GM asked us "are you sure?"

 

[Sardukhar]

. so after a few days of ice baths and sprinting from one air-conditioned habitat to the next, we decided to ditch our skinweave... and the GM asked us "are you sure?"

Heh heh heh heh heh. Genius.

Now, this, THIS is how you demonstrate consequences in-game, while illustrating the 2020 ethos, "damned if you do, damned if you don't. Just damned."

 

[blank_redge]

the Armored bandannas were always bs in my opinion to be any real protection they'd need padding to be effective

Yeah I ignore the armored bandannas too, they're purely a piece of "game rules tech" with essentially zero basis in reality.

...heh.

I'm picturing a triangular swatch of a Threat Level II vest cut out, with a bandana sewn around it. Picturing an inch-thick "bandana" tied around someone's head.

"Nope, nope; nothing to see here. Just an ordinary bandana." ;-)

---------- Updated at 02:37 PM ----------

you see, the way modern soft bodyarmor works is multiple layers of VERY tightly woven fibers that catch the projectile and then spread that kinetic energy over a larger area. by the reasoning of this GM, and i can't really fault his logic, anything sufficiently tight enough to stop the ingress of a bullet would also be tight enough to inhibit the outflow of perspiration and further serve to hold more heat inside the body. so after a few days of ice baths and sprinting from one air-conditioned habitat to the next, we decided to ditch our skinweave... and the GM asked us "are you sure?"

Ha.

To be fair, the Central Coast of California (where Night City is supposed to be) isn't as bad in the summer as Los Angeles or San Diego, but it *does* still get up into the high 90s - low 100s (Farenheit) during the worst parts of summer.

Clever Ref.

(Though, the counter to that would've been to have a Techie cannibalize a mini-fridge, and work the cooling unit into a leather jacket with a portable power source.)

 

[Suhiira]

i think you underestimate the amount of R&D going into making armor stronger, lighter and easier to wear. synthetic spider silk, graphene, and others developments have the potential to give us the sp10 bandana in the next decade or so. by modern standards, sure it seems silly. i've got a pair of old level 2 police vests lying around and there's no way in hell i would want anything that hot and bulky strapped to my head... it's cumbersome enough to wear that shit on my torso.

The problem is soft body armors (Kevlar) spread the impact over an area, thus while a bullet to the chest may not penetrate you WILL get an impressive and large bruise.
Now let's put that soft body armor on your head ... bullet hits ... body armor spreads the impact over an area ... unlike your chest your skull can't flex ... broken skull, brain trauma, probable brain hemorrhage. OK, this IS better then a bullet in the brain but not by much.

 

[atomowyturysta]

Well. If skinweave tech was valid and as cheap as prepak as it is in rules the regular armor would use the same tech and a typical military grade vest would be of some 40-60 SP And tank armor would get virtually inpervious to anything short of shaped charge nuke