Why is Johnny against sex workers?

[tavellone]

One thing that keeps bugging me is why during the interactions with Clouds and further with Judy's questline is why Johnny keeps having some inexplicable dislike for the dolls at clouds. I get why he would hate the place itself, he says he thinks the best thing would be to put a torch to it, fine, but Johnny is supposed to be an anticapitalist anti corporate anti government voice of the downtrodden. He hung around in squats and with people on the sidelines. He even gives you a big rant about how much he hates corporations for controlling people's lives and taking everything from them. He hung around with and is friends with people who are most likely to be sex workers and yet he's going around saying 'Why are we helping a bunch of whores' and calling them pathetic and braindead? I get that Johnny is an abrasive guy but I don't think that includes being judgemental or discriminatory to individuals, particularly those he'd be around and claims to speak for. Besides, I find it hard to believe Johnny hasn't hired prostitutes before, the guy will fuck anything, you can even make him say he wish he'd fucked Kerry for god's sake.

I understand that he doesn't particularly like Evelyn or Judy, but he goes on rants about Joytoys even regardless of that. This seems out of character to me and a kind of weakly written way to show that Johnny is a cool guy asshole who don't give a shit.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

From my point of view, Johnny rants on joytoys in generally (it's not pointed to anyone in particular) because he think if they have a "bad life", it's their fault and so, they're dumb/stupid. You point out sex worker, but it's the pretty much same when he say to his groupies, who are Samurai fans, that they're wasting their life following them like dogs...

It's a part of his general attitude. I guess, "pushing down" others make him feel "superior" and smarter... Beside you'd hardly find anyone in the world that Johnny doesn't find stupid/dumb, at least until the end of the game thanks to V.

 

[tavellone]

From my point of view, Johnny rants on joytoys in generally (it's not pointed to anyone in particular) because he think if they have a "bad life", it's their fault and so, they're dumb/stupid. You point out sex worker, but it's the pretty much same when he say to his groupies, who are Samurai fans, that they're wasting their life following them like dogs...

It's a part of his general attitude. I guess, "pushing down" others make him feel "superior" and smarter... Beside you'd hardly find anyone in the world that Johnny doesn't find stupid/dumb, at least until the end of the game thanks to V.

I don't think Johnny thinks people have a bad life because it's their fault and they deserve it, in fact his whole shtick is that people's lives suck because of corporations and in literally every other quest that involves fighting against or coming into confrontation with government or corporations he makes some comment about how the people involved are doing the right thing and fighting against authority, yet when a bunch of people literally try to do that exact thing and enact the exact sort of system change that he promotes, he goes 'what are we wasting our time helping whores for?' To me it doesn't make much sense. The only thing I see that would even make him say anything remotely like this is because he does not like Judy and even then he softens on her and gives her '6/10', but it wouldn't make sense to me that he'd just insult a bunch of dolls because he doesn't like one woman who isn't even a doll.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

yet when a bunch of people literally try to do that exact thing and enact the exact sort of system change that he promotes, he goes 'what are we wasting our time helping whores for?' To me it doesn't make much sense.

In theory, he's not wrong... If you're a bit pragmatic, V have more important things to do than helping Judy and clouds sex workers.

But again, you point out sex workers, but all along the game, he keep pushing down people whatever who they are. It's just the way he is, the way he think. For example at the end of "The Ballad of Buck Ravers", I summarize, but he say "people" (so it include pretty everyone) are stupid because they still eat corpo shits. Or when Panam call the guy to sell the stuff during "Ghost Town", he say that she should have a hole in place of a brain...

Edit : On a side note, it's maybe even reinforced against dolls, because as far as I know, dolls intentionally decided to work at Clouds. And above all, dolls intentionally installed (again as far as I know, no one forced them) an implant which allow them become someone else (a bit like Arasaka do and it's something which particularely disgust Johnny).

 

[Boonatron]

Johnny is so many "-ist" things, why do you expect him to be balanced and objective about anything?

There is no evidence he has more contempt for any one group over another. He doesn't care that people are just trying to survive however they can. He didn't even care if he himself survived when he was alive.

The only time he shows respect is for people with talent or principle.

 

[ShinAkira00]

Because there are in fact ppl who choose to be joytoys because it's easy and he believes they only contribute to the problem. Not everyone is a victim. Some people end up in sex work because they have no choice but there are those who do it because it's low effort, high reward. I disagree with him on a lot but he makes a valid argument there. As someone pointed out, he makes similar comments about the groupies that follow his band around just getting high and drunk. The poor typically enter sex work as a last resort, not the first. The ones who do it without trying to better themselves or even contribute to society in some positive way, I don't have a lot of sympathy for.

It's not at all out of character. He's not just anti-establishment, he's also anti- people who give power to those establishments and are too lazy to try and change things. He expresses this several times throughout the game, not just with Joy Toys. V was basically a merch for higher, killing people for money. Taking Gigs from corpo's and government officials alike and that's why Johnny straight up hated you at first. Your life was wasting away. If you're not changing, then you are just another cog in the machine contributing to the problem and that's how places like Night City thrive.

 

[DjSpyder]

I don't think it's about Joy toys, but specifically the "Dolls" at clouds, He even makes a comment on Jig-Jig Street that its more to his liking because it's honest.

It seems to me his issue with Clouds is 1, they sell a fantasy a lie, something pretending to be more than it is. and 2. The "Dolls" brains literally turn off and the chip does all the work, so they don't have any memory of what is going on in those rooms, which sort of takes the last bit of humanity from a transactional relationship and removes it. That type of work is already very impersonal and transactional but to have a chip do everything turn them, into just a body. Hell, the chip can take over to the point where it makes them skilled killers with the flip of a switch.

At least this has been my interpretation of it. He doesn't have an issue with sex workers, he has an issue with what clouds is selling, and the people who choose clouds over "More Honest" work.

 

[ShinAkira00]

I don't think it's about Joy toys, but specifically the "Dolls" at clouds, He even makes a comment on Jig-Jig Street that its more to his liking because it's honest.

It seems to me his issue with Clouds is 1, they sell a fantasy a lie, something pretending to be more than it is. and 2. The "Dolls" brains literally turn off and the chip does all the work, so they don't have any memory of what is going on in those rooms, which sort of takes the last bit of humanity from a transactional relationship and removes it. That type of work is already very impersonal and transactional but to have a chip do everything turn them, into just a body. Hell, the chip can take over to the point where it makes them skilled killers with the flip of a switch.

At least this has been my interpretation of it. He doesn't have an issue with sex workers, he has an issue with what clouds is selling, and the people who choose clouds over "More Honest" work.

Plus if you allow him to take over to find Adam Smasher, he has a wild night out with a sex worker. So his problem isn't with sex work, but certain kinds of sex workers.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Plus if you allow him to take over to find Adam Smasher, he has a wild night out with a sex worker. So his problem isn't with sex work, but certain kinds of sex workers.

Well, Johnny just want some infos from her about Grayson, so he doesn't have any intention to have sex with Ruby. And they have an accident before anything happen

 

[DjSpyder]

Well, Johnny just want some infos from her about Grayson, so he doesn't have any intention to have sex with Ruby. And they have an accident before anything happen

They actually have the accident while something is happening, probably what causes the accident, Shes a bit distracted by what Johnny is doing.

I'd say if the accident didn't happen, he absolutely would have "Hooked Up" with her, sure info was the main goal, but I doubt johnny was against having some fun to get that info.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

They actually have the accident while something is happening, probably what causes the accident, Shes a bit distracted by what Johnny is doing.

I'd say if the accident didn't happen, he absolutely would have "Hooked Up" with her, sure info was the main goal, but I doubt johnny was against having some fun to get that info.

Yeah, possible

 

[koalahugs]

I don't think it's about Joy toys, but specifically the "Dolls" at clouds, He even makes a comment on Jig-Jig Street that its more to his liking because it's honest.

It seems to me his issue with Clouds is 1, they sell a fantasy a lie, something pretending to be more than it is. and 2. The "Dolls" brains literally turn off and the chip does all the work, so they don't have any memory of what is going on in those rooms, which sort of takes the last bit of humanity from a transactional relationship and removes it. That type of work is already very impersonal and transactional but to have a chip do everything turn them, into just a body. Hell, the chip can take over to the point where it makes them skilled killers with the flip of a switch.

At least this has been my interpretation of it. He doesn't have an issue with sex workers, he has an issue with what clouds is selling, and the people who choose clouds over "More Honest" work.

Yeah, the doll chip is especially nasty as it essentially renders the sex act non-consensual, them being unconscious and all. It's no wonder Johnny hates doll houses. As for his contempt towards people who choose that line of work - well, one, he's not exactly a paragon of empathy and understanding and, two, I think that just fits his general attitude towards anyone (not just dolls) he views as failing to stand up for themselves and "selling out".

Like he says to V: "CLINK". He tends to lose respect for people who choose to be shackled.

It is a bit surprising though (given his recognition that corpos ruling the world is what pushes people to extremes) that he isn't more understanding of people resorting to extreme work. But I think he's so driven by the conviction that people need to stop being afraid and fight back, that he sometimes forgets to see the nuance. I mean, Evelyn was very clearly fighting back and trying to escape the system, so how that didn't earn his respect I don't know. Johnny's not the most consistent person though, he's a bit of an asshole, and tends to view things in very black and white terms. He rarely gives time for the grey IMO. I think that's a credit to the writing though.

 

[AlienSpaceBats]

I think it's mostly dolls? Sex workers who give up their autonomy - probably something he's really against especially after being trapped in Mikoshi for decades.

 

[DjSpyder]

It is a bit surprising though (given his recognition that corpos ruling the world is what pushes people to extremes) that he isn't more understanding of people resorting to extreme work. But I think he's so driven by the conviction that people need to stop being afraid and fight back, that he sometimes forgets to see the nuance. I mean, Evelyn was very clearly fighting back and trying to escape the system, so how that didn't earn his respect I don't know. Johnny's not the most consistent person though, he's a bit of an asshole, and tends to view things in very black and white terms. He rarely gives time for the grey IMO. I think that's a credit to the writing though.

The thing is he does begrudgingly give credit, and then sort of pull back from it, He is impressed, she put together the whole heist when everyone thought she was just a dumb doll.... but also thinks she was stupid for going back to clouds like that would somehow be safe. Even with the other side characters, he sort of likes Judy, but then seems not to at some points, River he starts out strongly hating, just for being a cop, but then also is happy we saved the kids later on. Panam and the Aldecaldos are the only ones I don't remember him really having this conflict with and that's because he respects nomads for living outside of the corpo world, and even with them, I think If he had more dialogue during the quest, he'd have strong opinions about Saul and BIotechnica, would definitely be on Panam's side with that.

I think johnny as a whole is written with sort of these contradictions. Where he can see the why and the how of it, and can even empathize a little, but then is torn back to his angry F%^K corpo self and the hater in him comes out. He's sort of a man of contradictions, plus as a construct on a chip in someone else's head, he's not 100% just johnny, he's definitely been changed by whatever happened in Mikoshi, plus his time with V.

 

[koalahugs]

The thing is he does begrudgingly give credit, and then sort of pull back from it, He is impressed, she put together the whole heist when everyone thought she was just a dumb doll.... but also thinks she was stupid for going back to clouds like that would somehow be safe. Even with the other side characters, he sort of likes Judy, but then seems not to at some points, River he starts out strongly hating, just for being a cop, but then also is happy we saved the kids later on. Panam and the Aldecaldos are the only ones I don't remember him really having this conflict with and that's because he respects nomads for living outside of the corpo world, and even with them, I think If he had more dialogue during the quest, he'd have strong opinions about Saul and BIotechnica, would definitely be on Panam's side with that.

I think johnny as a whole is written with sort of these contradictions. Where he can see the why and the how of it, and can even empathize a little, but then is torn back to his angry F%^K corpo self and the hater in him comes out. He's sort of a man of contradictions, plus as a construct on a chip in someone else's head, he's not 100% just johnny, he's definitely been changed by whatever happened in Mikoshi, plus his time with V.

Ahh, does he? I'll have to keep an eye out next time. Completely agreed about him being contradictory - I do like that he's written that way. Feels more realistic and believable that way.

 

[ShinAkira00]

It is a bit surprising though (given his recognition that corpos ruling the world is what pushes people to extremes) that he isn't more understanding of people resorting to extreme work. But I think he's so driven by the conviction that people need to stop being afraid and fight back, that he sometimes forgets to see the nuance. I mean, Evelyn was very clearly fighting back and trying to escape the system, so how that didn't earn his respect I don't know. Johnny's not the most consistent person though, he's a bit of an asshole, and tends to view things in very black and white terms. He rarely gives time for the grey IMO. I think that's a credit to the writing though.

The dialogue you reference is before we learn Evelyns reason for doing the heist, so Johnny wouldn't know that at the time and neither he nor V knew Evelyn that well. In hindsight we can sympathize with her. Aside from that, you don't need a major heist to leave that life, compared to the Mox girls she was doing far better. Her aim wasn't to leave the life, it was to score big. There's a difference. The first thing she does is offer to cut out Dex and split the money two ways. That's the difference between trying to escape sex work and trying to make a life out of it.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Well, Johnny just want some infos from her about Grayson, so he doesn't have any intention to have sex with Ruby. And they have an accident before anything happen

Uhm „I tell you what I heard about you and you show me if it’s true“ sounds like a pretty clear intention to me tho

 

[koalahugs]

The dialogue you reference is before we learn Evelyns reason for doing the heist, so Johnny wouldn't know that at the time and neither he nor V knew Evelyn that well. In hindsight we can sympathize with her.

Dialogue I referenced? Not sure what you mean, sorry. I didn't reference any - more the opposite, funnily enough: @DjSpyder claims there's dialogue I've overlooked, which maybe makes me somewhat mistaken re: Johnny's attitude toward Evelyn, though I'm not sure what it is. (@DjSpyder, do you have a quote handy, maybe?)

In any case, I wasn't referencing anything specific being said vis-à-vis Johnny on Evelyn - more making a general observation about Johnny's tendency towards judgement and cynicism of others before fully understanding/getting to know them first.

Aside from that, you don't need a major heist to leave that life, compared to the Mox girls she was doing far better. Her aim wasn't to leave the life, it was to score big. There's a difference. The first thing she does is offer to cut out Dex and split the money two ways. That's the difference between trying to escape sex work and trying to make a life out of it.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive though and I think her aim was both. Part of her plan was to get out of NC with Judy. Thing is, money is the thing that gives you access to freedom.

 

[DjSpyder]

Off the top of my head no direct quotes.

But general attitude towards characters, things like Talking crap about reiver being a cop, on a few occasions especially if Female V hooks up with him, some of his side comments during the investigation sequences.

I think there is a bit of dialogue about Evie, after watching the "Recovered Damaged Braindances." I know Judy and V have a conversation about her putting the whole thing together, I think If I'm remembering correctly during the follow up with Johnny, he makes a comment about her there as well.

Depending on who you call at the end of the game Johnny has reactions like if you call Judy, he says something like "Yeah She's really grown on me too." Obviously, he wasn't thrilled at helping her, and after helping her, he is very cautious about going diving with her, but then in that dialogue he clearly does like her in some way OR at least understands why V does and is choosing to be kind to V.

But back to the Joy Toy Vs Doll debate, He very directly mentions liking the toys on Jig-Jig Street over the Dolls in clouds, I forget the direct quote but it's something like "At least it's honest you know what you're getting here" and to be clear, As I said in my original comment, This is my interpretation of his behavior and comments, Johnny rarely gives a black or white answer, Like with the Peralez quest line, he clearly doesn't like the Idea of a mind controlled corpo puppet mayor.... but he also knows telling him the truth is also going to be a tough decision and is basically like "he's screwed either way".... Point is Johnny tends to live in the grey area making it feel that his intentions and his true feelings aren't always clear, unless of course it's "Burn Corpo Shit" which is his default setting when in doubt.

Edit: I could be wrong, and he may just hate the dolls because he judges them harshly.... Johnny doesn't respect anyone really if they're not standing against corpo BS, he kinda hates everyone even himself, so him judging "Groupies" and "Whores" isn't a huge stretch. I just personally see it as bluster, not true feelings like it's the outer shell, but under it you see moments of self-reflection where he understands people, before reverting to his default angry rocker boy attitude.

 

[koalahugs]

Off the top of my head no direct quotes.

But general attitude towards characters, things like Talking crap about reiver being a cop, on a few occasions especially if Female V hooks up with him, some of his side comments during the investigation sequences.

I think there is a bit of dialogue about Evie, after watching the "Recovered Damaged Braindances." I know Judy and V have a conversation about her putting the whole thing together, I think If I'm remembering correctly during the follow up with Johnny, he makes a comment about her there as well.

Depending on who you call at the end of the game Johnny has reactions like if you call Judy, he says something like "Yeah She's really grown on me too." Obviously, he wasn't thrilled at helping her, and after helping her, he is very cautious about going diving with her, but then in that dialogue he clearly does like her in some way OR at least understands why V does and is choosing to be kind to V.

But back to the Joy Toy Vs Doll debate, He very directly mentions liking the toys on Jig-Jig Street over the Dolls in clouds, I forget the direct quote but it's something like "At least it's honest you know what you're getting here" and to be clear, As I said in my original comment, This is my interpretation of his behavior and comments, Johnny rarely gives a black or white answer, Like with the Peralez quest line, he clearly doesn't like the Idea of a mind controlled corpo puppet mayor.... but he also knows telling him the truth is also going to be a tough decision and is basically like "he's screwed either way".... Point is Johnny tends to live in the grey area making it feel that his intentions and his true feelings aren't always clear, unless of course it's "Burn Corpo Shit" which is his default setting when in doubt.

Edit: I could be wrong, and he may just hate the dolls because he judges them harshly.... Johnny doesn't respect anyone really if they're not standing against corpo BS, he kinda hates everyone even himself, so him judging "Groupies" and "Whores" isn't a huge stretch. I just personally see it as bluster, not true feelings like it's the outer shell, but under it you see moments of self-reflection where he understands people, before reverting to his default angry rocker boy attitude.

I think what you were saying earlier, about him being a walking contradiction is about right, honestly. He has his moments of leaning into the grey, like with Peralez at the end, or Corporal Hare, for instance. Although I'm not sure he's "rarely" black and white because boy can he be a hardline absolutist at times and go into his "angry F%^K corpo self" mode as you say (I consider those his "black and white" moments) e.g. his attitude towards Nele Springer, or his belief that the ends justify the means, etc. I could be wrong though; I haven't, like, tallied the number of times he's one way or the other.

Re: Evelyn - Right after Judy and V watch Evie's braindances, I don't think Johnny said anything about Evelyn. V just asks Johnny if he knows how to find the Voodoo Boys and what they could want with Alt. Fast forward to "Both Side Now", when they walk into Judy's bathroom, Johnny makes a horrendously insensitive comment like, "offs herself to express her undying gratitude for saving her life." I can't for the life of me remember a single instance of him saying anything positive about her. Which maybe makes sense if he believes Evelyn chose to have a doll-chip installed... But then surely he's mindful of the fact that it's probably not always voluntary - Tyger Claws literally engage in human trafficking after all.

...Orrr maybe it's not contempt but just bluster like you said.

Re: general attitude towards characters - yeah, no disputing he can warm up to people in the end, like Judy. I think that's just the way he is - just takes a while.

Back to the OP: Just a wee thought to add to all this really, but I suppose a more prosaic reason Johnny has a shitty attitude during "Talkin' 'Bout a Revolution" might be because he simply thinks liberating Clouds is a distraction when they should be focussing on Mikoshi/Arasaka/Saving V.