Military Ranks and Pay Grades

[Tramp-Graphics]

Military Ranks and Pay Grades

OK, Now, Cyberpunk 2020 is probably one of the best games ever created, and it has some great supplements, which are all extremely useful. However, they're not perfect, and definitely got some things very, very wrong. Among these is how they handle Military rank structure, both for the US and other countries. In particular, but Home of the Brave and the Pacific Rim Sourcebook include military ranks, and both use the same overly simplified system Here's the problem with it In both books, you have one Non-com rank, followed by five officer ranks. This is flat out wrong. First, where are the ranks below non-com?As it stands, you basically go from buck Private recruit to Sergeant, straight away. This is wrong. Secondly, unless a n Enlisted soldier goes to OCS, he never becomes an Officer. He simply advanced up the Non-commissioned Officer ranks (of which there are several, not just one). Below are links to the military rank structures of different countries' Armed Forces from around the world. Though certainly not a complete list, it does include most of the major countries in Cyberpunk 2020[/i]. It should be noted, that while similar, each country does handle their Enlisted and Officer rank structure differently.

United States
Japan
United Kingdom
Canada
France: Army
France: Navy
Germany
Russian Army
Russian Navy
Russian Air Force
China

Now, here's where it gets interesting. Let's figure out how to go about actually applying real military rank and Pay Grade structure into the game.

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

Good job! Let me add one if only for a kind of patriotic feeling;

NATO (officers)
NATO (enlisted)

Now, here's where it gets interesting. Let's figure out how to go about actually applying real military rank and Pay Grade structure into the game.

It's the Dark Future, it has to be had in account the current state of each country within the Cyberpunk 2020 setting. Thought work for sure.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Good job! Let me add one if only for a kind of patriotic feeling;

NATO (officers)
NATO (enlisted)





It's the Dark Future, it has to be had in account the current state of each country within the Cyberpunk 2020 setting. Thought work for sure.

The current state of any given nation's economy wouldn't have any effect on how its military structures its ranks. That's one of the main issues I have, and the whole purpose of this thread: to fix it.

 

[Sardukhar]

and the whole purpose of this thread: to fix it.

Well, calm down. No need to go all bold on people.

Maybe they changed the rank structure by 2020...for..some reason? I can't imagine one, but I've been surprised a lot by military and political decisions.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canad...the-future-with-british-style-ranks-1.1328974

Canada did it a couple years ago.

""It is an announcement that is not substantive," he said from Toronto on Monday. "And I am not unmindful they would love to expunge anything Liberal out of Canadian history."

The unification of the military branches and common ranking system were introduced by the Liberals in 1968."

So..politics?

I can see some Corporates forcing the change because they want more officer designations than NCOs - it suits their vaunted sense of self-importance. Corporate boardroom politics do take strange turns.

As for getting promoted to Officer from enlisted, apparently you need some college credit first:

"Officer Candidate (or Training) School (OCS/OTS)
This program helps turn college graduates with no prior military training into military officers. It is also the way for an enlisted servicemember with over 90 hours of college credit to advance to commissioned officer."

I wouldn't say it's very very wrong, just in need of a minor adjustment, if it bothers you. Throw in Warrant Officer and a few other Sergeant grades, Corporal, whatever.

Or just assume the rank structure stands and enjoy the weirdness. Alternate world, after all. At least you don't have fusilliers. Silly name..

It's pretty minor - not like they detail the rank structure for MedTech, Corporate or Cop.

 

[Suhiira]

I've yet to see any game that models military rank structure accurately, and don't ever expect to for one primary reason ... job/rank responsibilities differ dramatically from nation to nation, what one nation considers a sergeants job another may require a captain for.

 

[Sardukhar]

I've yet to see any game that models military rank structure accurately, and don't ever expect to for one primary reason ... job/rank responsibilities differ dramatically from nation to nation, what one nation considers a sergeants job another may require a captain for.

Did you try Twilight 2000? Hey, Tramp, have you ever seen/played Twilight 2000? It was pretty good, iirc. You could maybe import it straight in?

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Well, calm down. No need to go all bold on people.

Maybe they changed the rank structure by 2020...for..some reason? I can't imagine one, but I've been surprised a lot by military and political decisions.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canad...the-future-with-british-style-ranks-1.1328974

Canada did it a couple years ago.

""It is an announcement that is not substantive," he said from Toronto on Monday. "And I am not unmindful they would love to expunge anything Liberal out of Canadian history."

The unification of the military branches and common ranking system were introduced by the Liberals in 1968."

So..politics?

I can see some Corporates forcing the change because they want more officer designations than NCOs - it suits their vaunted sense of self-importance. Corporate boardroom politics do take strange turns.

As for getting promoted to Officer from enlisted, apparently you need some college credit first:

"Officer Candidate (or Training) School (OCS/OTS)
This program helps turn college graduates with no prior military training into military officers. It is also the way for an enlisted servicemember with over 90 hours of college credit to advance to commissioned officer."

I wouldn't say it's very very wrong, just in need of a minor adjustment, if it bothers you. Throw in Warrant Officer and a few other Sergeant grades, Corporal, whatever.

Or just assume the rank structure stands and enjoy the weirdness. Alternate world, after all. At least you don't have fusilliers. Silly name..

It's pretty minor - not like they detail the rank structure for MedTech, Corporate or Cop.

Technically, the College program is ROTC (Reserve Officer Traininc Course). OCS (Officer Candidate School) is for enlisted men who want to become officers.

As for Canada, apparently, nothing has actually changed since that report, if you go by the sites I linked to above. Their ranks are still the same and they still use the Maple Leaf in their rank insignia.

The problem with the "Corporate" model, is it does not work in a military situation. The military structure relies upon Officers at each echelon having appropriately ranked NCOs as support. Thus, in the Army, for example, the team has the E-5 Sergeant, the Squad has an E-6 Staff Sergeant, the Platoon, lead by a 2nd Lieutenant is supported by his E-7 Sergeant First Class. The Company, lead by a Captain and 1st Lieutenant XO (Executive Officer), has the E-8 First Sergeant, The Battalion and above, lead by a Lt Colonel, Colonel, General, etc. respectively, are each supported by E-9 Command Sergeant Major. The Officers establish the strategy and policy, and the NCO implements it, works the tactical end, advises the Officer, and guides the troops. Without experienced NCOs at each level, the military structure breaks down, putting the troops at much greater risk in combat. That's why Militaries have had multiple NCO ranks within an NCO Support Chain parallel to the Commissioned Officer Chain of Command for as long as there have been militaries. Even the Ancient Romans had a complete NCO support chain.

Even corporate factories have Foremen at various levels between the Office management and workers.

 

[Suhiira]

Twilight wasn't bad ... I preferred my own personal variant of Marrow Project, with some elements from the Albedo combat system added.
OH !
You mean the games rank system?
Again it REALLY depends on the nation, and sometime the service you're modeling. In the US Army a Platoon Sergeant is an E7, in the USMC an E6. Same responsibilities, and the USMC E6 actually commands more people (since USMC platoons are larger).

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Did you try Twilight 2000? Hey, Tramp, have you ever seen/played Twilight 2000? It was pretty good, iirc. You could maybe import it straight in?

Nope. Never played it, never even heard of it.

 

[Suhiira]

That's why Militaries have had multiple NCO ranks within an NCO Support Chain parallel to the Commissioned Officer Chain of Command for as long as there have been militaries. Even the Ancient Romans had a complete NCO support chain.

Even corporate factories have Foremen at various levels between the Office management and workers.

In a nutshell NCOs are foremen, they're the ones that actually implement the plans and directives created by officers, i.e. corp executives.

 

[Sardukhar]

Even corporate factories have Foremen at various levels between the Office management and workers.

Well, of course. I don't think anyone is debating it. My explanation for the 2020 weridness is Corporate meddling - they aren't trying to make things better, just how they want to see them.

More officer ranks than NCO ranks is pretty dumb, so throw a couple in there. Hell, when it comes up in game, I just look up the unit you're from and go with that. Why not?

Twilight 2000 was a heavily military-based post WW3 game. Tried to be pretty realistic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_2000

I played it a bunch. Actually really fun, if you like that whole thing. They had pretty elabaorate rank structures, pulled from different organizations in the 80s, expanded with supplements iirc.

Edit: Oh, yeah, as to the Canuck thing, that could take years to have effect. If the Conservatives didn't back pedal. Who even knows. Point is, ranks change over time. Apparently, sometimes they go backwards?

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

In a nutshell NCOs are foremen, they're the ones that actually implement the plans and directives created by officers, i.e. corp executives.

Exactly. This issue is real important to me, because, aside from being a US Army veteran, my main character is a Delta Force Command Sergeant Major.

 

[Suhiira]

Ahhh yes I remember the puter Twilight 2000. Not bad for it's day.
If you like that sort of thing give Jagged Alliance a try.

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

The current state of any given nation's economy wouldn't have any effect on how its military structures its ranks. That's one of the main issues I have, and the whole purpose of this thread: to fix it.

Not in rank structure, but probably in Pay Grades.


There was a reissue of the Twilight rpg called Twilight 2013, the company that released the new version went out of business. Haven't tried the new edition but really enjoyed the old.

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Not in rank structure, but probably in Pay Grades.


There was a reissue of the Twilight rpg called Twilight 2013, the company that released the new version went out of business. Haven't tried the new edition but really enjoyed the old.

Not even then. The Pay grades are the same as the ranks, just the names of the ranks are different from branch to branch. And, if you look at the military Pay grades, there are almost equal numbers of Enlisted grades as there are Officer grades, with Officers having just one more.

 

[Suhiira]

Not even then. The Pay grades are the same as the ranks, just the names of the ranks are different from branch to branch.

Not entirely true (at least in the US military).
At the highest ranks in each category (E9, W4, and O8ish+) there is usually an extra Pay Grade for special cases.
Example, the Command Sgt Major of the entire US Army is technically an E9 just like the Sgt Major of any battalion, but they're at a special Pay Grade and sort of treated as an E10 unofficially.
Also within most Pay Grades there are "Time in Service" modifications. A major with 20 years in service is paid more then one with 10.

And as I pointed out earlier the actual responsibility any given rank wields may vary from service branch to branch and wildly from nation to nation. This was particularity true under the Soviet system where officers frequently performed duties that in the west were performed by NCOs.

 

[eraser7278]

there's no direct correlation between these charts and the one in HOB, but for most ranks the sweet spot seems to be 1/3-1/4 the listed value, but in EB rather than greenbacks. then again, I'm pretty sure wild side said the government still pays it's people in greenbacks, so if you go that route call it ~ 1/2 value in dead presidents (then fuck em over on currency conversion fees). as for why they condensed the rank structure in HOB... all a plot to cripple the E-4 mafia

E1-E5
http://www.militaryrates.com/military-pay-charts-e1_e5_2015

E6-E9
http://www.militaryrates.com/military-pay-charts-e6_e9_2015

O1-O5
http://www.militaryrates.com/military-pay-charts-o1_o5_2015

O6-O10
http://www.militaryrates.com/military-pay-charts-o6_o10_2015

 

[Tramp-Graphics]

Not entirely true (at least in the US military).
At the highest ranks in each category (E9, W4, and O8ish+) there is usually an extra Pay Grade for special cases.
Example, the Command Sgt Major of the entire US Army is technically an E9 just like the Sgt Major of any battalion, but they're at a special Pay Grade and sort of treated as an E10 unofficially.
Also within most Pay Grades there are "Time in Service" modifications. A major with 20 years in service is paid more then one with 10.

And as I pointed out earlier the actual responsibility any given rank wields may vary from service branch to branch and wildly from nation to nation. This was particularity true under the Soviet system where officers frequently performed duties that in the west were performed by NCOs.

I know all about that, I was in the Army for four years. I served in Desert Storm, the first Gulf War. However, while the CSM of the Army may get a pay bonus, he is still E-9, the Army does not have "special" pay grades for him. It's strictly a position that he can be transferred from after serving his time in that role, at which point, he goes back to regular E-9 pay, or he retires (usually the latter, I believe), at which point his retirement pay would be based upon the standard E-9 pay grade and his time in service. It's not a separate Pay Grade. The only "special" Pay grade that is an actual promotion in rank and pay grade in the Army is reserved for a Five Star General, a rank only awarded during war time that serves as commander of the entire US Army during said war. The last Five Star General we've had was General Omar Bradley in 1950 during the Korean War. The last Five Star Admiral, was William F. Halsey Jr in 1945 at the end of WWII. The Air Force's only Five Star General was Henry H. Arnold in 1944. And, yes, time in service does play into an individual's pay, but it's still just the nine Enlisted Pay grades, Five Warrant Officer pay grades, and ten Officer pay grades. Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't even include Warrant Officers in the HotB sourcebook. Here's the 2015 US Military Pay scale.

Ultimately, however, how do we go about translating this into game terms, effects, and stats to replace the screwed up versions in HotB and PAC? I'm not too concerned about the specific duties each branch doles out to a given pay grade (such as whether a platoon is lead by an E-6 (USMC) or E7 (USArmy), rather, I'm interested in replacing the rank and promotion tables and rules for Military characters from Home of the Brave and Pacific Rim with ones that reflect accurate Military rank and promotions. This includes what bonuses to skills such as Leadership and Tactics are gained at each rank from E-6-E-9, the five Warrant Officer ranks, as well as for the five missing Officer ranks excluded from the list in the book (2nd Lieutenant, Lt. Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, and Lt General). Simply put, let's come up with new promotion rules for the game that actually match the real military rank structure.

To start out, let's look at the Promotion rules from HotB, and what promotions give a character.

The rank test for NCOs is a Leadership roll against a Difficulty +10, for Officers it's vs +20. with NCO's never taking the NCO promotion test again, only being promoted to Officer (which normally does not happen in the real Military), and there is no Warrant Officer Promotion test.

My proposal, keep the Difficulties for the tests for NCO and Officer promotions the same, and add a Promotion test for Warrant Officers with a Leadership Difficulty of, say, +15. Does this sound about right?

Alternatively, should the difficulty for Promotion increase for each rank?

Secondly, we could keep the actual time intervals for promotion tests the same, as in the book (every two years for each NCO rank, every four years for each Officer rank). But what about Warrant Officers? That's one rank scale I don't really know how often they get promoted, given that there are only five WO ranks. Granted, they're typically already E-6 before becoming Warrant Officers, but still. Thus, should it be every 2 years, like NCO, every four years, like Officers, something in between, or an even longer interval than Officers?

Alternatively, should the time intervals allowed between testing for each promotion increase?

Third, Enlisted personnel only become Officers by going through OCS, not standard promotions testing. Instead, most Officers start their careers as such by having gone through RotC or a Military Academy (such as the Army's West Point). Therefore, we need to set up some basic rules for that. Any suggestions are welcome, whether adapted from the PAC's Student life path rules tables, or something else.

Now, on to the game effects of promotions.

HotB says that when a soldier passes his or her promotions test, For NCOs he gets a +1 to Leadership, and +1 to Tactics (type as appropriate) and goes up in rank, whereas an officer gains +1 to Handgun, +2 to Leadership, Expert Tactics (appropriate type)+1 and goes up in rank. it also states that an NCO never tests for NCO again, but instead for Officer.

My proposal, scrap the never testing for NCO again garbage. That's wrong. Enlisted personnel should test for each NCO rank from E-5 through E-9. unless he wants to try for Warrant Officer or specifically try for OCS to become an Officer. Thus, an E4 tests for E-5, an E-5 tests for E-6, E-6 for E-7, etc. up through E-9. and gains +1 to Leadership and +1 for tactics at each promotion (gained by attending NCO training courses, such as PLDC, B-Noc, A-Noc, etc.) . The benefits for passing the officer's tests too can follow the ones established in the book, for each of the ten Officer ranks from O-1 to O-10. with an Officer getting +1 each to Handgun and Tactics, as well as +2 to Leadership per rank. However, given that an officer needs to test for promotion nine times, as opposed to an Enlisted man testing only five times, it might be prudent to set a graduating interval for Officer promotions so that the lower Officer ranks (say O-1 through O-4) and below)promote a bit faster than senior officers (O-5 through O-10). We might also want to reduce the skill increase to Leadership to +1 for each rank, given the increase in Officer ranks, otherwise you'd potentially have a 4 star General (O-10) with a +20 in Leadership.

What are your thoughts on these proposals?

And what about Warrant Officers? What skill increases should they get out of a promotion? How often should they be allowed to test for promotion? What should the Difficulty be for Warrant Officer Testing?

Also, the book doesn't even deal with promotions from E-1 through E-4, the lower enlisted ranks (which aren't actually tested for). The standard is—barring any disciplinary action resulting in a loss of rank—after six months in service, an E-1 is promoted to E-2, after a full year in service, he's promoted to E-3, after two years in service, he's promoted to E-4. At least that's how it was when I was in, and from then on, he must pass the promotion board for each rank E-5 and above.

 

[weregeld]

Years ago I tried to redo the millitary lifepath for cyberpunk thinking along similar lines. I saw a guy using the rules in HOB make a "sniper" who could barely sneak could not hide and was average with a rifle He was an expert with heavy weapons and explosives. after that mess I started to rework things. long story short it turned into a massive 250 page project that was all lost when I upgraded to a new computer and the files came out unintelligible. ah well anyway..

Taking inspiration from twilight:2000 I split officers and enlisted into separate career paths entirely (officers are supposed to do less fighting more organizing that at one point I considered making them a corp variant rather than solo). your career path started at basic training for your service branch, than you chose your military occupational specialty infantry, armor ect, with tests for advanced careers, snipers,rangers getting into special forces,SEALS or delta was another test. as you advanced you gained career skills but lost pickup skills (you may be a badass in the machine but you ani't nobody the streets gato) I also added more enlisted ranks and modified the pay system, It wasn't great but in the cyberpunk world 3 hots and a cot is a massive sighing bonus in the US military.

most of what I came up with was made more with an eye at ex military PCs than serving ones also at balancing playability with just grinding paperwork. but i found it worked. they were great at a certain way of fighting but were hampered by a lack of street resources and flexibility other edgrunners had. it also illustrated why most ex military types went over to the PMC's like Millitec or Lazurus or Arasaka (who actively court them) rather than turn to freelancing, unless they have really good reason to (MORE ROLE PLAYING PATHOS MUAHAHAHA !!!)

sorry a little long winded and poorly typed.

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

In the world of Dark Future of CP, with the rise of corps like Militech, Lazarus and Arasaka in the post Collapse, I tend to see the regular armies through a darker prism loosing ground to the corps. That was my point, sorry if I deviated from the focus of your post.

If you haven't already I recommend you the get a look at the Twilight 2000 rpg if you don't mind all the Cold War stuff.