2019 DEMO was telling the truth, you just didn't listen.

[exxxed]

So than does this disable the Alcado ending choice in the end?

Um... yeah .

I can understand where people are coming from though, but I really don't think it would have been realistic to expect such systems out of a narrative heavy game like Cyberpunk, technologically it's just not there, it never was.

Even in The Witcher 3, which vastly surpasses Cyberpunk in the consequence aspect, it's merely a facade change, the only impact it has is how many npcs will be available at specific story junctions, that more or less ultimately play out the same (sure Eskel can die at Kaer Morhen, but his story arc is completed anyway it's not like he appears afterwards).

But it still doesn't invalidate what Cyberpunk already does.

Would have been really nice though to have different branching narratives based on your chosen life path, and I wish CDPR would have been more succinct with the voice-over narrative in the trailers.

 

[ralfetas]

Not all RPGs are built on a dialogue choice based system, but there are consequences in Cyberpunk.
I understand what you're trying to say, have more choices with immediate and clear cut effects, like swapping out NPCs and lines of dialogue, which is pretty much the extend of the result in those games you mentioned, except for The Witcher 2 of course.
Well Cyberpunk has different types of consequences presented through world building, like clearing out an area brings in regular people and opening up shops, news bulletins, radio, NPC chatter, shards and dialogue lines.
I understand you might prefer the other method, but I can see them both for what they are, and I'm completely fine with it because it serves the purpose of telling a cohesive narrative that's rather fluid in the middle arc and branching in the latter arcs.
It's different and there are few traditional choices and consequences and I would have liked to have more, or more distinctive ones or at least have the world be more reactive (like NPCs towards V).
That's conjecture, there are similar scenarios in all of the acts that lead to specific story beats that need to stay consistent.
As for the rushed part, clearly it was.
But besides the bugs we don't know what else was affected maybe this was always the finished state they had in mind they just couldn't optimize the engine in time for release on seven different platforms.
The point is we don't know, it seems coherent to me so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt regarding the narrative in the game.
You develop your character, if approaching stealthily you gain stealth xp which boosts your attribute to unlock the special perk at the end.
If you don't play your build consistently you will never level up your attributes fast enough for them to become effective.
As for the rest, depending on the job specifications there are different outcomes, if the job requires stealth you get a bonus at the end, if the job is an assassination there are different ways to get to your target, one of them being dialogue, you can convince the target to leave the city as well in some scenarios.
You can fail main quest lines if you don't do them properly, if you take your time Saul dies, if you tell on Panam to Saul she erases you from her phone, depending on how you talk to Johnny you can lock yourself out of Rogue's missions, if you don't investigate properly you can botch River's quest, same with finding out what happened to the previous Mayor.
Yes the long lasting implications are too subtle sometimes I agree.

CP2077 is all dialogue... Will bring ME again, just as reference, there you need to plan your course of action or you will lose the timing to make a mission and lost it forever, in CP2077 the only thing you can do is to say "no i will not do that mission", just see the memes about Goro waiting in Toms Dinner, but this is W3 too.

For the areas that change, indeed i see this in some places, but is just cosmetic, in W3 for example, you clean settlements, and with that you gain new vendors and fast travel point, so is good to clear areas, in CP is like you said, just comestic, not saying that should have vendor or fast travel point, but something should happen.

My first play was dividing all perks, i was everything and nothing the same time, and the game was easy, could go stealth, rambo, whatever... the balance is terrible, again W3 demands that you follow a line, or go potions or go attack or signs etc...

If you convince the target to leave the city, nothing happens, the target go away, if you kill him, the same, there is the illusion of choice, but they don´t matter... I can think many things for this outcome, if you don´t kill him, the guy could leave the city yes, or he could go for revenge after sometime, or he could fail to leave the city and you get the mission to finish the job, if you kill him, someone could go after you, you could lose a contact, i could go on... This happens in someway when you go to the scav basement and found yourself in the ripperdoc, you can kill him and don´t gain nothing, or let him leave and have the store open.

For the main missions, never manage to get Saul killed, don´t know how to do this, i go save him after i made all the 3 main missions and all was fine, he was there sitting and waiting

For river, my first play i had intelligence 10, could not get the IP, in my second play i had 20 intelligence, could get the IP, what change? Nothing, everything runs the same, and when we get to the farm, i start to disable the mines to get XP, i leave the scene many times, what do i get? A text message from River asking me to come back and help him "please", i literary go away and he was there texting me for help!!!

The mayor, no matter what you do, find or not, you go to second part of the mission... again, don´t see how to fail on that one.

But to be honest, don´t know why i am thinking about this, the twitter page already changed description to action adventure game, no more RPG.

 

[Garrison72]

It's one vague video among dozens that featured straight up lies about the game. Now we know why they were so reluctant to show any extended gameplay. I'm sorry, but they deserve no slack on this front. Especially since they pulled the same stunt with TW3.

 

[hulkman2456]

I really don't think it would have been realistic to expect such systems out of a narrative heavy game like Cyberpunk, technologically it's just not there, it never was.

There's no technology involve. It's called writing. You need the time or money. And they had both. They just chose reduce the game down after act one. But than in their marketing, pretended the whole game was like act 1. Act one is what people expected, for the branching type of story. You tell the truth in the marketing. I would have been FINE with a standard liner story. Nothing is wrong with this. But I will not accept characters used only as plot devices. Or lack any good story development. All these things add up, get people mad, and on top of the bugs and other game mechanic problems. CP was a perfect storm of failing.

 

[exxxed]

There's no technology involve. It's called writing. You need the time or money. And they had both. They just chose reduce the game down after act one. But than in their marketing, pretended the whole game was like act 1.

I'm talking about the Red Engine it seems to me that they were struggling with it, writing or not, if more than two thirds of your production is you wrestling the tech then there's nothing much one can do.

It seemed to me that they ultimately decided to tell a somewhat linear cohesive story that flowed well rather than creating more bifurcations that would lead to a myriad more things to fix.

It's not an excuse but an observation, and like I've mentioned before I would have loved more options.

 

[hulkman2456]

I'm talking about the Red Engine it seems to me that they were struggling with it, writing or not, if more than two thirds of your production is you wrestling the tech then there's nothing much one can do.

It seemed to me that they ultimately decided to tell a somewhat linear cohesive story that flowed well rather than creating more bifurcations that would lead to a myriad more things to fix.

It's not an excuse but an observation, and like I've mentioned before I would have loved more options.

But branching was totally fine in TW3? Maybe they should hire people who understand their own engines and say: We can't do this work in it. let's use something like UE4.

 

[ralfetas]

I'm talking about the Red Engine it seems to me that they were struggling with it, writing or not, if more than two thirds of your production is you wrestling the tech then there's nothing much one can do.

It seemed to me that they ultimately decided to tell a somewhat linear cohesive story that flowed well rather than creating more bifurcations that would lead to a myriad more things to fix.

It's not an excuse but an observation, and like I've mentioned before I would have loved more options.

Agreed, i notice this in many ways, considering that is a engine that works very nice with W3, don´t think they create the special modules needed for CP.
We can see this the way the cars handle, is the same thing as the horses in W3, you can notice this more if you use any mod to improve the driving.
Another point is the basic NPC´s, in W3 they are mostly fix in their place, here we can see they just spawn, is a very cheap way to make it, almost like particles effects, that´s why is extreme CPU heavy.
This happens a lot in the industry, seeing FO4 as example, if you mod the game, you will see that the vertibirds use the same dragon structure from skyrim, that´s why they are terrible...

 

[exxxed]

-snip-

Yeah sure so what changes in Mass Effect when you decide to help Dr. Michel, or Rita's sister, or Jahleed or scanning the Keepers etc. there's a lot of examples.

Heck in Dragon Age Origins most side quests end there and then with nothing extra but gold - items and xp.

Let's be real here, it's fine to point out inconsistencies in the game design but we need to be fair.

I agree there's a lack of major consequences, but let's not pretend they don't exist at all, likewise with the choices.

With Saul, if you decide to ride in your own car after the mission starts and 24 hours passes with you not showing up, Saul dies, or if you drive the van randomly Panam eventually throws you out of the car and you have 24 hours to get to the Rafen Shiv camp or Saul dies.

With River you can chose the wrong farm, or again if you leave prematurely he can die (this is from the guide) and the quest will fail.

If you check out areas you've previously cleared there are different outcomes, police investigating the killings, people returning to live there, the markets bustling with life and new vendors opening etc.

Like I said let's not jump the gun with statements that are incorrect, I'd love more options and better consequences but let's not inflate the issue.

Post automatically merged: Feb 10, 2021

But branching was totally fine in TW3? Maybe they should hire people who understand their own engines and say: We can't do this work in it. let's use something like UE4.

The engine was rewritten to accommodate the new systems, clearly things haven't panned out the way they expected it.

I mean look at Star Citizen, they've rewritten Cryengine with the help of Crytek engineers and it still takes a very long time to adapt it according to their plans.

It's not a simple cut and dry issue, one thing might have worked fine in a fantasy setting (like braindead AI) which doesn't translate well into this neo-futurism setting.

It's their first time doing traffic AI, driving, shooting, first person, dynamic cutscenes, incredibly detailed city scape etc.

 

[batouyukinawa]

By god when I shoot that NPC I wanna see a ripple effect through the very fabric of
space and time! This game is utter trash! lol.

All seriousness though, hear complaints about bad AI and I just don't see it. NPC's do pretty good at flanking me, retreating if I begin sniping them, not sure if this is a CPU thing or what but I find them to be pretty decent. Maybe it's a difficulty setting? I'm on hard.

 

[Fuse_00]

you kill her or spare her based what you feel like your character would do.

This way, every shooter provides roleplaying experience. Serious Sam can shoot anyone or just run through the mobs without touching them, roleplaying the pacifist

 

[Rensarvik]

"Didn't listen"? Fine, lets listen some stuff from that Deep Dive:
4:12: (about Pacifica) "... taking a casual stroll here would not be a good idea, a fast motorbike or armoured plated car would be a safer option ..." - Makes you really think this is some exceptionally nasty region, where one can easily get ambushed, right? No need to worry! It is no different from every other part of Night City, feel free to casually stroll all day! That said, this is not such a huge issue in my opinion, unlike the next one.

13:13: "... and that was just a glimpse how complex the branching storyline in cyberpunk 2077 can get. Every decision you make will have consequences, your choices will shape how the world reacts to you, and affect your relationships with those around you ..." - There is no "complex branching storyline", most of your decisions have no consequences, and the whole world "reacting" to you based on your choices was at the very best just ... meh.

13:45: (about Johnny) "you will decide if he will be your ally, or your enemy" - Nope! Completely wrong. Johnny will always act as your friend. Even if you do your best to completely reject and oppose him, he will never become your "enemy", at worst he will be somewhat sad and disappointed friend.

Obviously one can play an internet lawyer and claim that wording in those statements is sufficiently vague to argue that technically CDPR did not really lie. But as I am not trying to sue them, I don't really care about legal technicalities. The narrator delivered a message about the game they were developing, and that message didn't accurately reflect the final product in some fairly crucial parts.

 

[batouyukinawa]

"Didn't listen"? Fine, lets listen some stuff from that Deep Dive:
4:12: (about Pacifica) "... taking a casual stroll here would not be a good idea, a fast motorbike or armoured plated car would be a safer option ..." - Makes you really think this is some exceptionally nasty region, where one can easily get ambushed, right? No need to worry! It is no different from every other part of Night City, feel free to casually stroll all day! That said, this is not such a huge issue in my opinion, unlike the next one.

13:13: "... and that was just a glimpse how complex the branching storyline in cyberpunk 2077 can get. Every decision you make will have consequences, your choices will shape how the world reacts to you, and affect your relationships with those around you ..." - There is no "complex branching storyline", most of your decisions have no consequences, and the whole world "reacting" to you based on your choices was at the very best just ... meh.

13:45: (about Johnny) "you will decide if he will be your ally, or your enemy" - Nope! Completely wrong. Johnny will always act as your friend. Even if you do your best to completely reject and oppose him, he will never become your "enemy", at worst he will be somewhat sad and disappointed friend.

Obviously one can play an internet lawyer and claim that wording in those statements is sufficiently vague to argue that technically CDPR did not really lie. But as I am not trying to sue them, I don't really care about legal technicalities. The narrator delivered a message about the game they were developing, and that message didn't accurately reflect the final product in some fairly crucial parts.

This is a design issue not the omitting of truth on the narrators part.
Pacifica would be a terribly dangerous area for an under leveled V.
However, most will have reached Pacifica way over leveled making
the oppressive nature of this region almost completely non existent.
This has always been an issue with RPG's other than perhaps Divinity II.
Because you're able to grind out XP, and most people will do exactly that,
and the designers intentions can be lost altogether in contrast to
how overpowered the character has become.

The stories do branch. Saul can die, you can piss off Panam to the point she deletes your
number etc. Judy has this failure state as well. Certain opportunities aren't even available to
you if you screw up in certain situations. Like I never got Johnny's car because I was RP'ing a
cold no nonsense Corpo character. Whoops, I'd say the narrator wasn't lying. My choices did effect
things completely outside that mission.

He's probably referring to Johnny's relationship with V being friendly or aggro (not the spoil it)
which does effect the ending and an entire questline with Rogue which is a really cool moment between those
two characters. I also think Chipping in never happens if you're always a dick to Johnny. Basically, yeah, the narrator
was again telling the truth lol.

 

[zqfmgb123]

They promised me an RPG and i got mediocre Borderlands with a Cyberpunk aesthetic applied to it instead.

 

[batouyukinawa]

They promised me an RPG and i got mediocre Borderlands with a Cyberpunk aesthetic applied to it instead.
View attachment 11173418

Yup all true to varying degrees.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

This way, every shooter provides roleplaying experience. Serious Sam can shoot anyone or just run through the mobs without touching them, roleplaying the pacifist

yeah, you might have a point if that was the only thing in game, and most shooters don't give you an option to defeat a boss without killing them. The context was the announcer saying, kill her? or don't kill her, your cyberpunk, your choice. This is showing you can choose the values of your character.

for example, when you defeat Adam smasher, you can choose to kill him, or let him live. This is a reflection of what type of character you are RPing. Many of the choices here at RP choices. Thats a part of an RPG. You don't care about RP choices, you only care about changing the major plot, but thats only one factor of RP, and generally not even the major test of RP. What you want is closer to a "choose your own adventure" rather than an RPgame.

Choose Your Own Adventure, or Secret Path Books is a series of children's gamebooks where each story is written from a second-person point of view, with the reader assuming the role of the protagonist and making choices that determine the main character's actions and the plot's outcome

there is overlap, but there is a difference.

RPGs a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]

there is overlap, but there is a difference. RPG focus on acting out the character, which is why many of these options are in game.

 

[ralfetas]

This is a design issue not the omitting of truth on the narrators part.
Pacifica would be a terribly dangerous area for an under leveled V.
However, most will have reached Pacifica way over leveled making
the oppressive nature of this region almost completely non existent.

Sorry, i think we are playing different games, in my first play i was level 5 or 6 when i finish act1, first thing i do was to steal a nice car and explore the world, see stores etc... i go to pacifica, look the ocean, do all that, took a good look in the voodoo boys, and nothing happens, if i got to close i got a warning they spot me, besides that, nothing, you really don´t need a armored car to travel there or anywhere... if you have patience you could even travel on foot all the map and nothing would happen to you.

 

[batouyukinawa]

Well yeah. Why would everyone suddenly drop what they are doing and try to blow up your car?
That wouldn't make much sense. However, if you start fighting gangs in that area under leveled, you're gonna have a bad
time.

 

[Rensarvik]

This is a design issue not the omitting of truth on the narrators part.
Pacifica would be a terribly dangerous area for an under leveled V.
However, most will have reached Pacifica way over leveled making
the oppressive nature of this region almost completely non existent.
This has always been an issue with RPG's other than perhaps Divinity II.
Because you're able to grind out XP, and most people will do exactly that,
and the designers intentions can be lost altogether in contrast to
how overpowered the character has become.

Narrator clearly implies that Pacifica is especially dangerous area even by Night City standards and "casual stroll" is bad idea. In practice, a casual stroll in Pacifica is in no way more dangerous than in other districts. Additionally, regarding enemy levels, if you rank 7 main regions per enemy levels from highest (City Center) to lowest (Watson), then it turns out that Pacifica is ranked only 5th, making it objectively one of the less dangerous parts of Night City.

The stories do branch. Saul can die, you can piss off Panam to the point she deletes your
number etc. Judy has this failure state as well. Certain opportunities aren't even available to
you if you screw up in certain situations. Like I never got Johnny's car because I was RP'ing a
cold no nonsense Corpo character. Whoops, I'd say the narrator wasn't lying. My choices did effect
things completely outside that mission.

Yeah, you can reject, or sometimes if you try really hard even fail some optional quests. So player can opt out from some content, very complex, much branching.

He's probably referring to Johnny's relationship with V being friendly or aggro (not the spoil it)
which does effect the ending and an entire questline with Rogue which is a really cool moment between those
two characters. I also think Chipping in never happens if you're always a dick to Johnny. Basically, yeah, the narrator
was again telling the truth lol.

"He's probably referring..."Riiight. Lets listen it again: "he will be your ally, or your enemy". Pretty clear stuff. No matter how nasty you are towards him, he will never act as your enemy. Sure you can opt out from his optional questline ("complex branching!"), but that doesn't make him your enemy. Funny thing is, the game actually does show what an "enemy" Johnny could look like. His first appearance when he tries to get you commit suicide is pretty chilling. But afterwards he will quickly warm up to you regardless of your choices, and the absolutely very worst you can achieve is only making him sad by choosing Arasaka ending.

But you can keep bending over backwards trying to cover up for them, not much point continuing this discussion further.

 

[Avanglion]

you don't feel connected with anything in Night City, just progressing from one mission to the next while the in between is disconnected from the story

Totally agree with the first part of your post. You, meaning V, are not very connected with anything in Night City. It's supposed to be that way, though. Either you are an outsider, physically, or you never found your place in NC's society despite growing up there. You are a checkered sheep in a city of goats. That's what the origin missions imply.
But side missions being disconnected from the story is just plain false. Again, back to OP's point - you people are not paying attention. Most of the side gigs have some piece of lore lying around (data shards, laptop messages) and/or NPC dialogue that is 100% connected to the current state of affairs, the events that you trigger during main missions. That's one of the interesting things about the game - you are not the most important figure in this world. An honest mayor, a corrupt mayor, crime lords tearing the districts apart, a sick slavedriver and torturer, a white khight of a cop without a badge, a mind-controlled politician - they all have weight and are related to one another.
The story of a nomad started with a data shard found in Northside is later continued with a side mission in Rancho Coronado - a body, a broken promise, a vengeful sibling that is going to set things right the only way possible. If you paid enough attention you would notice names repeating, story lines converging. Well, you would also notice some of the lines being switched around or having the wrong character mentioned but that's due to the person writing them being so damn tired because of the crunch.
But you don't care about any of that, right? Screw the data shards, screw the dialogue, just blast inside that building guns blazing and rush for the ending. The way you are "progressing" matters.

 

[batouyukinawa]

I agree, uninstall the game. The game is trash, they lied. They're absolute bastards for lying about everything.
Is that what you wanna hear? Do you feel vindicated now?

I'd rather focus on the positive. Complaining about what it isn't is pointless. It'll never change the game we have
currently. But constructive criticism and positivity might help the devs moral and encourage them to fix the bloody game.