Big missing piece in the story (Humanity)

[ottffss1]

I'll just say it this way: the CP77 (main story with the relic) feels more like a pulpy space opera at the moment rather than a gritty noirish crime mystery investigation into the horrors of inhumanity. And I do believe that the later would be more condusive to nail down any themes of a dystopian future where as you point out "humanity" is valued less and less.

 

[Proto2149]

It's supposed to work that way: Creator himself said following: "Cyberpunk Was a Warning, Not an Aspiration"

You mentioned that have seen movie Blade Runner, yes that's cyberpunk film. If you read cyberpunk literature, you may notice quite clear trend about these worlds being dystopias. It explorers many themes, humanity being one, not magical humanity, but what we actually are and what kind of messed up things our desires may lead us.

But I have some good news for you. You are not messed up. Even creator of the settings agree with you, you gotta be an idiot to desire future like this.

Post automatically merged: Jan 16, 2021

I don't think Gibson's later works, at least Pattern Recognition actually have any chrome or body modification at all.

Gibson writes Neuromancer in 1984, for many the pinnacle, the cyberpunk reference , quoting wikipedia "Neuromancer would help solidify cyberpunk as a genre". The genre is exploited in all forms and sort of falls into oblivion.
20 years later would you be expecting Gibson to still be exploring the same genre? It could be, but for all I know the Pattern Recognition you mentioned, I didn't read, could be a steampunk book, a much more trendy genre in 2003, the year the book was released according to wiki.
I don't want to get into any argument, I just think it's preposterous to consider the fictional reality of cyberpunk without body modification.

 

[ottffss1]

Gibson writes Neuromancer in 1984, for many the pinnacle, the cyberpunk reference , quoting wikipedia "Neuromancer would help solidify cyberpunk as a genre". The genre is exploited in all forms and sort of falls into oblivion.
20 years later would you be expecting Gibson to still be exploring the same genre? It could be, but for all I know the Pattern Recognition you mentioned, I didn't read, could be a steampunk book, a much more trendy genre in 2003, the year the book was released according to wiki.
I don't want to get into any argument, I just think it's preposterous to consider the fictional reality of cyberpunk without body modification.

Yeah that film is awesome, basically the horror of turning into a cyberpsycho. But is an example where this cyberpunk genre intersects more closely with horror - more specifically body horror. Other examples of that are in early Cronenberg. Whereas Blade Runner is more the murder/ mystery or even future noir crime genre and The Fifth Element "space opera pop".

 

[Guest 4519094]

The humanity score in games like cyberpunk or vtm is mainly a mechanic preventing players from
becoming overpowered too quickly, it can offer avenues of live roleplay.

Very glad CDPR had the foresight to offer us a much deeper reflection on the topic of humanity
.... rather than a score.

 

[CS554]

Gibson writes Neuromancer in 1984, for many the pinnacle, the cyberpunk reference , quoting wikipedia "Neuromancer would help solidify cyberpunk as a genre". The genre is exploited in all forms and sort of falls into oblivion.
20 years later would you be expecting Gibson to still be exploring the same genre? It could be, but for all I know the Pattern Recognition you mentioned, I didn't read, could be a steampunk book, a much more trendy genre in 2003, the year the book was released according to wiki.

I don't want to get into any argument, I just think it's preposterous to consider the fictional reality of cyberpunk without body modification.

I don't know what Wiki you read about Pattern Recognition but mine reads: "The novel's central theme involves the examination of the human desire to detect patterns or meaning and the risks of finding patterns in meaningless data. Other themes include methods of interpretation of history, cultural familiarity with brand names, and tensions between art and commercialization." It is sort of fork though.

Regardless novel behind Blade Runner by Philip K. Dick author of Do Androids Sleep of Electric Sleep was written in 1968. He got inspiration from watching documentaries about Nazi war criminals, and how he perceived them, acting like human but like replicating human behavior.

Hardwired (1986) in 30th anniversary edition by Walter John Williams, in foreword author explains in very casual way certain things. How back in the early 80's (he started writing it in '83) they had idea about something like neural interface, but technology at the time left them guessing, how that would work out. Same goes for Gibson's early work, when I read Neuromancer in the early 90's it was technically hopelessly outdated.

Later works, say Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, which is sort cyberbook novel and parody of genre at the same time, it doesn't really get into body modification. Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan is much about problems of immortality and sleeves are there to make that possible.

None of those is exploitation of genre by any means, but are considered examples of the genre.

Focusing to gadget aspect of things, the problem is that is sort of dead end. A bit like saying something like: guitar is music.

 

[nadsh]

my problem with this kind of modification is subjective after all, but do you really not see any problem with removing your natural eyes and replacing them with manufactured ones, to have extra functions? nothing wrong or not advisable about that? I can get that you like the concept, but is it worth it to you to renounce something unique to you with something manufactured in industry? that's why I say it's subjective, I have a strong connection with my body and just the thought is horrifying to me, and extremely dumb, the kind of thing that you would forever regret, it may be different for you

Nope, outside of not trusting the manufacturer. I feel like my organic body has already failed me a couple of times so I have no issues "fixing" it. I do have a connection with my face though and wouldn't change it without a good reason, so I get what you mean.

As for the soldier example, it depends. It's an awfully invasive requirement and mandatory cyberware would give companies/countries a worrying amount of control over people's bodies. I'd say my attitude here is close to Johnny's take on Mikoshi in the story.

 

[sullyman83]

I did find myself thinking a cyberware free option would be cool but scanning is integral to the game so cyberware free is impossible.
It does not however mean that because you have been forced to accept two mods that you then might as well fill every other slot, the choice about those other slots is yours to make and the consequences are yours to discover.
The game will be a lot harder without cyberware and would likely force you to approach every situation differently, affecting your path dramaticly.
So my question Giamotto is, did you finish the game with all those mod slots free?
If not maybe it's worth a try.
The humanity is in how you play the game.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Cyberware free is possible.

Scanning can be done with wearable devices, integrated into contact lens or glasses.
communications would be with a phone.

There would be no jacking in, but all hacking done with portable computers.

It would also break the story as jacking in is required for everything.

 

[Proto2149]

I don't know what Wiki you read about Pattern Recognition but mine reads: "The novel's central theme involves the examination of the human desire to detect patterns or meaning and the risks of finding patterns in meaningless data.

Isn't that what maths can be used for, find, predict patterns?
I did not read the wiki article, I have just consulted the Pattern Recognition page to check the release date.
Again I don't want to get onto fights and I'm definitely not one to rely on regarding cyberpunk literature but since you mentioned Gibson and Neuromancer and his later works then let me talk about Ridley Scott, who, according to probably at least half the world population, managed to direct Blade Runner in the most beautiful and fantastic way yadyada.. and 20 years later look what he was doing. I like Ridely Scotts work a lot but I cannot say Gladiator's a scifi flick because he did Blade Runner.
My first reply to this thread was to give props to @giammotto for the cool ideas but Cyberpunk2077 is cyberpunk, the moment you start to ditch fundamental ideas that make the genre, it stops being cyberpunk, would you not agree? Cyberpunk2077 is cyberpunk and isn't called NEO-Cyberpunk2077... or should it?
That was rhetoric but please feel to comment if you like.

 

[CS554]

Isn't that what maths can be used for, find, predict patterns?
I did not read the wiki article, I have just consulted the Pattern Recognition page to check the release date.
Again I don't want to get onto fights and I'm definitely not one to rely on regarding cyberpunk literature but since you mentioned Gibson and Neuromancer and his later works then let me talk about Ridley Scott, who, according to probably at least half the world population, managed to direct Blade Runner in the most beautiful and fantastic way yadyada.. and 20 years later look what he was doing. I like Ridely Scotts work a lot but I cannot say Gladiator's a scifi flick because he did Blade Runner.
My first reply to this thread was to give props to @giammotto for the cool ideas but Cyberpunk2077 is cyberpunk, the moment you start to ditch fundamental ideas that make the genre, it stops being cyberpunk, would you not agree? Cyberpunk2077 is cyberpunk and isn't called NEO-Cyberpunk2077... or should it?
That was rhetoric but please feel to comment if you like.

What Gibson does is up to Gibson, how the hell I'm supposed to know. Happened to like the novel though.

You ignored the whole rest of my earlier reply covering several works considered as cornerstones in cyberpunk genre. Body modification has no value itself. Back in the day authors wrote about people connecting to systems via plugging wires in their body, because the whole concept for neural interface was new, the term itself didn't even existed.

There are films, other works too that overlap with cyberpunk but like I said, they are not the cyberpunk. Guitar isn't music, most of classical music doesn't have a guitar, we can have music without guitar. We can have a guitar piece and arrange it to piano.

 

[Proto2149]

Apologies I didn't address your previous references, the beginning of my previous post I was just responding to what you addressed directly to me

I don't know what Wiki you read about Pattern Recognition