Chrome - Developing a rules-lite cyberpunk RPG

[retrocyberpunk]

Chrome - Developing a rules-lite cyberpunk RPG

Greetings to the Cyberpunk 2077 Community!

I wanted to introduce myself and start a thread on a project I've been thinking about for quite a while now. I'll admit I'm not too familiar with CP2020 as it's own game. My experience in the genre was primarily playing some old 1E/2E Shadowrun and being a fan of the Gibson books. The vast majority of my time gaming (30 years now) has been in D&D - or more specifically old-school D&D. I've stuck to the "Classic" version from the old box sets of the 80's.

What I'm interested in doing is putting together a very rules-light cyberpunk game, based more on the rule set used in old D&D - classes based on genre archetypes, fast and loose combat and play. No long skill lists to build a character from. This, in essence, is the challenge for me - to try to build some classes and rules that allow for cyberpunk style gaming, converted over from a game system that is skill-based.

It's my belief that the old style D&D rules can be used in a generic style to emulate virtually any genre, and it's been done for generic sci-fi, Star Trek, Chthulu and various flavors of fantasy. I want to see if I can pull it off for cyberpunk.

I don't expect to find much interest here, to be honest, but I can see the members here being a great resource as I work through this. Maybe in the end, it will garner some interest!

 

[retrocyberpunk]

Ported over from a thread I started in the Fan Art forum:

You should look into D20 Modern, OGL Cybernet, Terminal Identity, Netspace, ...
Better yet, just go to DriveThru RPG and search from Cyberpunk.

Thanks for the pointers, cybersmiley. I have looked at a fair amount of the D20 Modern stuff, and have copies of OGL Cybernet and also Digital Burn. To be honest, they are far, far , FAR too rules heavy for my use, though I hope to cull bits and pieces from them. My base here is to be the original '74 version of D&D, and building up to the 80's "B/X" edition, as opposed to the super heavy D20 version. That's why I'm doing my own thing!

I have no idea what Terminal Identity or Netspace are, so those I'll have to go looking for though, so thanks!

Just curious Retro, but have you heard of Interlock Unlimited?

It is a re-write of the Cyberpunk rules system to make it a universal system capable of playing any genre or setting.

Magic and Arcana rules ad-ons have already been completed, and a friend is working on a fantasy race and bestiary supplement...

any interest in teaming up?

Thanks for jumping in, Wisdom. Actually, I have been on your Datafortress site and have D/L'd quite a bit of your IU system to look through. It's a very in-depth reworking of the game - very impressive. As I mentioned above, my goal is to work up CP rules using D&D as a basis, rather than learn a new system to play the game. I've had some interest on other forums, and there are plenty of people like me who know D&D inside and out and would like to see how to make this genre work within a ruleset we already know.

The biggest hassle will be netrunning, of course. Any game I've ever seen makes it so complex it's almost too much of a pain to use. If I recall, you have some variants that make it much quicker and easier to run, so I might look to those for inspiration. If I have questions, I know where to find you!

 

[videopete]

Cyberpunk is pretty rules light, and almost classless. If you want incantation explain it.

 

[retrocyberpunk]

Thanks for the offer, but 'm not looking to be converted to a new game system. I want archetypal classes, and not skills to have to choose from. Skills are a bad thing. The original 2013 box set is a pretty light ruleset, yes. It's why I'm using it for inspiration.

 

[wisdom000]

Thanks for jumping in, Wisdom. Actually, I have been on your Datafortress site and have D/L'd quite a bit of your IU system to look through. It's a very in-depth reworking of the game - very impressive. As I mentioned above, my goal is to work up CP rules using D&D as a basis, rather than learn a new system to play the game. I've had some interest on other forums, and there are plenty of people like me who know D&D inside and out and would like to see how to make this genre work within a ruleset we already know.

The biggest hassle will be netrunning, of course. Any game I've ever seen makes it so complex it's almost too much of a pain to use. If I recall, you have some variants that make it much quicker and easier to run, so I might look to those for inspiration. If I have questions, I know where to find you!

Ah, I see... we are moving in the same direction towards opposite goals.... no worries.

Although, for me, one of the best things about the Cyberpunk rules system is that it is pretty much as far removed from the DnD rules as its possible to get without foregoing dice and character sheets altogether. But everyone has their favorite rules system, and they want to use it to run any games that come along, because its familiar for them. Nothing at all wrong with that. Hell basic is the only version of DnD I would really even consider playing these days.

 

[Don_Carnage]

Yeah, CP2020 is about the most rules-light system there is.

My other gaming poison is 1st Edition D&D (with a small dose of 2nd). To run D&D you need ah PHB and DMG as a bare minimum. After that there's a whole world of add-ons. Cyberpunk 2020 can be played with 1 book.
My favorite part of the Interlock system is that combat is fast and cinematic and I don't have 'hit points' anymore.
My current game is a fantasy game (very D&D) but using Wisdom000's Interlock Unlimited system as the foundation.

Now... If I were to convert it to D&D I'd start by comparing the classes in the easiest way that makes sense.
Solo - Fighter
Fixer - Thief
Med Tech - Healer
Rockerboy - Bard
Techie - (maybe a thief/fighter combo)
Cop - Paladin
Netrunner - Wizard
Corp - (I got nothin)
Nomad - Ranger

figure out in D&D terms do each of these classes do. They don't need to match D&D perfect, but close enough that they feel comfortable.
After that I'd look at combat (probably remove damage locations and use hit points instead), then cyber.
The cyberpunk2020 Netrunning system will probably suit you fine, it was very D&D with spells your character has to know.

 

[retrocyberpunk]

AD&D is a strong system, but yes, still lots of rules. OD&D on the other hand, is much less detailed.

The retroclone "Swords & Wizardry: WhiteBox" is a free PDF which allows for legal publications under the Open Gaming License. That's what I'm writing for.

Right now, I'm still torn on how many individual classes to use. It seems like Corps, Cops, Fixers and maybe even Nomads all have variations on the same ability - access to resources whether money or people.

I'm thinking something like this:
Solo - Fighter
Netruner - actually more cleric than wizard. Using a Turning mechanic for hacking skills. Programs & gear gives bonuses
Tech - thief with scrounge/jury rig skills
Professional - Cops/Corps - thief with money/resource connections
Fixers/Medias/nomads - thief with people connections
Rockerboy - Bard

Still very much in the works...

 

[doomblade403x]

Thanks for the offer, but 'm not looking to be converted to a new game system. I want archetypal classes, and not skills to have to choose from. Skills are a bad thing. The original 2013 box set is a pretty light ruleset, yes. It's why I'm using it for inspiration.

How exactly are skills a bad thing. In reality when you think about yourself you center around the things you know how to do. WE all have a wide and varied skillset...and those sets make up whom we are. One of the good things about DF2020 is the skills aren't locked into careers. You could be a fixer with heavy weapons, or a solo with stock market. Cyberpunk from the onset is at the core a skills based system. The 3.0 and 3.5 incantations of d&d are also essentially dressed up skills based systems.

 

[retrocyberpunk]

Hi Doomblade,
Thanks for popping in. Let me try to explain more clearly just WHY I want to tackle this project and pretty much eliminate skills in favor of a class-based approach.

Why D&D?
It's the game I've both played and run FAR more than any other. The mechanics are so instilled in my mind that trying to learn another game, especially given the time I have available to invest, is hardly wroth the bother. The cyberpunk GENRE is something I want to do more with, so for me, the best solution is to convert over to a D&D-based system.

Rules-light? Have you SEEN 3.5?
I prefer to run an extremely rules-light game. D&D has grown and evolved over the years. 3.5 (now Pathfinder) is a loooong way from the version of the game I grew up playing, and still play today. Yes, at it's core 3.5 is still the same game, with all those skills, feats and such piled onto it. But that is most definitely NOT the D&D I play. 70's Original D&D and 80's "Basic" D&D are what I'm talking about when I say "D&D" and if you know those editions, then you'll recognize that they simply don't have the skills base you're pointing to. Are they bad games? Of course not, but I'm playing much more loose and free-form than that.

Skills vs. Classes
CP2020 offers the core "Roles" as starting points for character development, then the desired skills are chosen from a list (which got bigger and bigger over time) to further customize your character. That's essentially what D&D 3.5 became. A core class, but further specialized by skills, feasts, prestige classes and multi-classing. It all got very convoluted and IMO the rules-mastery needed to create a decent character made it too hard to just sit down and play for fun, especially with less-experienced players. In comparison to that play style, older editions of D&D don't use those skill lists. Classes are meant to stand on their own. They have a defined niche in the gameworld. Fighters handle combat, no matter what the style, they're best with any weapon. No rangers or paladins or barbarians. They are all fighters and the fluff is just equipment choice and roleplay. Clerics are support - healing and buffing. Mages... use magic. Thieves are best at sneaking, cracking locks, finding traps. In their case, other classes can try to do that stuff, but the thief specializes at it.

The Thief introduces skills to the mix, and that does open a window to develop a limited list of skills tied specifically to their classes. There are also a couple of "retroclone" games that have introduced a simplified skill system into the older rules. I'm not ruling that out. My point is mostly that, even if I end up needing to implement a very simplified skill system to my game, it will NOT be a thing that people can choose from a la carte. I firmly believe in niche-protection for the various "roles".

Essentially, your Fixer will be able to use most weapons, probably up through SMG type stuff, but probably not really heavy arms - those take the more focused skills of a Solo. That same Solo might have a connection in the financial field, but the Fixer has more, and better ones. Anyone can use the Net, but only the Netrunner can jack in full VR and LIVE it.

Does that make more sense?

 

[wisdom000]

Its your game, do it the way you want...

But I doubt you will get all that much support for your project here, as to most fans of Cyberpunk, one of the main selling points of the rules is that its nothing like DnD. No hit points, no level based progression, and few limitations on character direction due to classes.

With interlock unlimited, the limitations on who or what your character can be are even further removed, to the point of triviality really.

And to be honest, you keep talking about DnD being a rules lite system... when that's really not true either... The Rules Cyclopedia for 1st edition/Basic is a pretty hefty book, certainly larger in page count than the rules sections of Cyberpunk 2020, or even Interlock Unlimited, which is nothing but the rules, is 76 pages. Even with all the add-ons for IU, it doesn't come anywhere close to even half of the 300+ page Rules Cyclopedia for ODnD.

It may be a simpler system, in that it doesn't bother with things like hit locations, damage effects, character freedom, or anything approaching realism... but it is not rules lite.

If your are talking about just basic, as in jkust the rules that came in the red box (or the original/white box edition) you may have a point, but those rules are hardly comprehensive, and IIRC correctly have a pretty strict level cap for the classes... a pretty low one at that. But I could be misremembering.

 

[retrocyberpunk]

Well, n all honesty, I didn't come to these forums looking for support, so to speak. I realize the posters here play CP2020 and most likely aren't interested in a D&D-ized version. My original post was in the Fan Art section, mentioning I was working on a game and asking if anyone would allow me to use their artwork. After a couple of question about the game were posted, I started this thread to explain what I was trying to do in more detail, and I've just tried to clarify my vision as more questions were asked and suggestions offered.

I DO appreciate the feedback. I think it has gotten me to realize I will need at least a rudimentary skill system in place, if nothing else.

Regarding "rules-light" and OD&D, it comes down to what you define as OD&D. The Rules Cyclopedia came out in '91 - compiling the 3rd version of "Basic" D&D - 36 full levels of play, adding skills and a lot of rules crunch that isn't needed. In contrast, Original D&D (via the "clone" I linked above) is a 120 digest-sized page book. Just 10 levels, it includes all the spells, monsters, magic items - everything. The core rules are about 25 digest pages. That's what I mean by light - rolling back 15 more years of development from the Rules Cyclopedia era..

No offense meant, no hard feelings here. We're just looking at two very different ways to approach the genre. It's all good as long as you have fun once you sit down and play, I think.

Peace.

 

[wisdom000]

Heyo.... good luck to you man... I wish you the best of fortune with your endeavor....

 

[quartermaim]

I once played in a Cyberpunk game at Pacificon many years ago.

Referee had a really fast way to deal with combat every character do maximum damage. It really speed up combat up.

Also I had my friend who is a wiz and modifying sheets set up all the skills so what you put your skill score first then next to it you have your total. This also speeds up things since players just roll and look at the total instead of trying to add everything up.

You do these things and the game should pretty much run quickly in my not so humble opinion.

 

[Sjakal]

I've been toying around with the idea of adopting Fate Core into a Cyberpunk setting myself.

Fate Core (as far as I understand) IS skill selection based, but you can choose to create template character types for your setting that recommend certain skills if you like. From what I could understand when looking at character 'aspects' and 'stress', Fate Core is definitely going to be rules light and character heavy, and is so generic that you can adopt it to pretty much any setting.

The Dresden Files RPG should be a good example of this, and there's also a Strands of Fate book you can use as a toolbox with a lot of inspiration for creating your own worlds, settings, characters, and whatnot. So far I've only been tampering with the basic setting information (alternate timeline, brief description of society's upper and lower classes, some technology, and such) but hopefully in time I will have the setting fleshed out enough to start adopting its mechanics into Fate Core when it is launched sometime in april.

I'm still not sure if it's going to be strict Cyberpunk. I'm definitely aiming for a hard sci-fi feel and a lot of cyberpunk tech and the noir feel. How dystopic the setting is going to be remains to be seen, but it's definitely one where the recent financial crisis has the upper class doing whatever they can to keep their power over the 'lesser' citizens.

 

[retrocyberpunk]

I've never played any FATE, but I'm always curious to see what people put out there. Definitely share once you get something worked up!

 

[1b1z4]

Chrome - Developing a rules-lite cyberpunk RPG

Greetings to the Cyberpunk 2077 Community!

I wanted to introduce myself and start a thread on a project I've been thinking about for quite a while now. I'll admit I'm not too familiar with CP2020 as it's own game. My experience in the genre was primarily playing some old 1E/2E Shadowrun and being a fan of the Gibson books. The vast majority of my time gaming (30 years now) has been in D&D - or more specifically old-school D&D. I've stuck to the "Classic" version from the old box sets of the 80's.

What I'm interested in doing is putting together a very rules-light cyberpunk game, based more on the rule set used in old D&D - classes based on genre archetypes, fast and loose combat and play. No long skill lists to build a character from. This, in essence, is the challenge for me - to try to build some classes and rules that allow for cyberpunk style gaming, converted over from a game system that is skill-based.

It's my belief that the old style D&D rules can be used in a generic style to emulate virtually any genre, and it's been done for generic sci-fi, Star Trek, Chthulu and various flavors of fantasy. I want to see if I can pull it off for cyberpunk.

I don't expect to find much interest here, to be honest, but I can see the members here being a great resource as I work through this. Maybe in the end, it will garner some interest!

You're probably familiar with the Old School Renaissance community, right? Have you ever tried The Black Hack? It's a fair rules-lite medieval fantasy game based in old school DnD, there's a Cyberpunk hack for it named Mirrorshades, with clear inspiration in Cyberpunk 2020. I don't like some stuff in it, but it's easy to make balanced house rules for it. If you can read in spanish, you should also take a look into Vieja Escuela Cyberpunk by Grapas Mapas, a fair d20 rules-lite with old school inspiration game. You may have heard about the Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells and it's following science fantasy game, Solar Blades & Cosmic Spells, I've been thinking about using some rules of Solar Blades for a cyberpunk game, so you'd probably like to take a look in it aswell.