How Project Orion Should Handle Third Person Perspective

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[There are currently no realistic animated 3d models of V in Cyberpunk. The only ones that exist right now are the movement we see in character creator, menu, shadows and mirrors. This is why they are mostly stationary and the shadow movement is weird. Photomode shows V with realistic proportions and poses, but is NOT useable as a basis for TPP, it is a mannequin. This model cannot be easily animated by modders which is why the existing TPP mod for Cyberpunk has taken years to create and still lacks the refinement only a professional studio can produce. Creating a stationary 3D model is much easier than animating a 3D model and putting it in the game world.]

So, for many reasons CDPR chose to scrap TPP and that carried at least four consequences:

-No reflections of V anywhere. Those still require most of the work needed for TPP anyway (I believe “futuristic” mirrors that require activation were used as a work-around).

-Strange and unrealistic animations of V's shadow.

-Never seeing your melee animations in a cinematic way and never seeing your highly customized character in anything apart from the menu or photo-mode.

-Alienated part of the overall player base resulting in decreased sales.

FPP as the decided approach has its advantages. It heightens immersion, allows the player to experience detailed interiors more clearly and leverages the FPS player base and increases the combat intensity of gun battles.


Changing Orion to be fully oriented around TPP would be a mistake. CDPR knows this and I think most Cyberpunk players agree.

Having TPP in Orion only for exploring and stealth while excluding TPP from combat and cutscenes is an option, but not the best one in my opinion.

The best approach would be to fully implement polished TPP on the back end. That means a complete 3D player model with correct proportions and animations for all in-game movement, combat, and interactions including eating, swimming and sitting.

This would all be invisible to the player as the game would still be entirely in FPP (apart from maintaining the option for TPP driving).


The Cyberpunk video game IP would retain its distinctive identity that sets it apart from The Witcher games and deliver on the type of look and experience fans of 2077 expect and that most desire.

This would solve two of the aforementioned issues.

The player would see their reflection in windows, puddles, and mirrors in addition to proper movement and animations of their shadows.

This is more immersive for FPP and as a side benefit TPP mods could be more easily created for PC players that want it because professional 3d models and animations would already exist in the game files. All that would be needed is a functioning camera.

Thoughts?
 
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Ok, I saw you played Starfield in another thread, which offer a proper and playable third person view, so maybe you could guess what I'm about to say.
Does offering a third person view fix the issues you mentionned in first person in Cyberpunk?
Sadly, the answer is no.
You don't have a body in first person (just arms), you don't cast shadow at all in first person (quite weird when your companion near you does^^) and your character don't have any reflexion either (mirrors are "blurry" anyway^^).

I won't make a generality with Starfield, but still it's a good example anyway :)

And about "alienated" players...
I think (I could be wrong), but does The Witcher 3 "alienated" players because it only offer third person view? I don't think so... I mean it's all matter of artistic choice by devs, you have to live with it or don't play :)
 
True, TPP by default doesn't add shadows, only the devs can do that (or not). I figured since V has shadows in Cyberpunk they would add them again in Orion.

Don't get me started on Starfield lol. Never disliked so many aspects of a game I spent 150 hours playing before.
 
True, TPP by default doesn't add shadows, only the devs can do that (or not). I figured since V has shadows in Cyberpunk they would add them again in Orion.

Don't get me started on Starfield lol. Never disliked so many aspects of a game I spent 150 hours playing before.
To be honest, I hope CDPR will try to improve the first person view in Orion by adding a better character shadow and character reflexions. A first person view which is already quite awesome in Cyberpunk in my opinion. If adding a third person view help, it's fine. Even playable, as long as it does not come at the expense of the first person view, it's fine to me too.

About Starfield, I enjoyed it (and still enjoy it, I(m playing it right now^^). Cool and enjoyable game as long as you aware it have the Bethesda "flavors". Nice word to say Bethesda usual "flaws & issues". A rather "junky" first person view is one of these flavors :D
 
It could be nice to mix these two and add cutscenes.
I liked them in the 48min demo :)

Imagine Sandevistan in TPP - like Ciri's multistrike teleport ability.
Or move in a crowd in TPP - adds a feeling of being part of it.
Crafting, jumping, sword combat, taking cover, and some cutscenes or dialogues could be in TPP,...

But I grew to like FPP in CP77, it's amazingly well done :)
 
1. Devs are happy with FPP in CP2077.

2. They are aware that players would like to see V more.

3. Reflections on surfaces, mirrors etc. are highly demanding for computer power at the moment - hopefully in couple years it will not be such a problem.
 
3. Reflections on surfaces, mirrors etc. are highly demanding for computer power at the moment - hopefully in couple years it will not be such a problem.
With RT its not really. Everything except for V is already reflected so the hit to performance is very small. Its harder they way they are doing it now in mirros, you get a small load spike since the game has to load another ingame model. Games have hade reflections in mirrors for a very long time before RT even so its just because the way they implemented FPP that its not in the game.

I find the FPP to be odd at times due to them doing it in a way thats not common in FPS for example. Seeing Vs body is nice and all but it has its flaws too since you get very limited viewfield when playing on a screen. Modders made this in skyrim to btw so its not like its impossible to get working with 1/3 person. I get what they were trying to do but it also does add issues like the model and thus the reflections and shadows.
 

"HOW PROJECT ORION SHOULD HANDLE THIRD PERSON PERSPECTIVE"

As much I would want it, am 100% certain the sequel of Cyberpunk will be 1st person perspective only. It just inadvertently solves quite a lot of issues for any game dev team.
 
The way I imagine it being implemented is with a cyberware, for example "Out of Body Experience", which you can add if you choose to.
I didn't consider that. They would still need to do all the work for TPP and have it hidden on the back end as per my suggestion. Very clever in-game and lore friendly way of doing it!
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No TPP please.

CP2077 works really well with FPP combat and talking to NPCs.
I don't want game to constantly switch between TPP and FPP.

CDPR really made cool cinematics that worked well with FPP mode, especially in PL.
I am suggesting the entire game would stay in FPP...

No files at all for TPP is the reason V has no natural reflections and weird shadow. Not ideal for FPP immersion.

TPP data (3d models, animations) in the games files would allow modders to make a good TPP mod.

Vanilla game would be the same it is now except V has reflections and realistic shadow.
 
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1. So the recommendation is for them to spend almost equal resources to create TPP for a niche audience?

2. Fans of CP2077 have already shown they are fine with FPP so what do you mean by "Deliver on the kind of look and experience fans of 2077 expect"?

3. Your suggestion in no way improves immersion. No implementation of TPP improves immersion. The moment the camera pans out you are introducing several issues. The main one being combat because Night City is compact. The camera would be wonky unless they make every room and open environment larger so in effect you are asking them to redesign Night City. Secondly, I think ppl play games to ....well, play the game not look at themselves in mirrors and reflections.

4. I think this has been said many times before especially when ppl keep using Skyrim as an example. Skyrim uses swords...melee combat. In a game like CP2077 where enemies and you are moving at super speed and using ranged weapons this does not translate well to TPP. Combat in Skyrim is MUCH slower than CP 2077. Combat in Witcher 3 is MUCH slower as well. The thing both have in common is combat is done in open areas not a condensed city so the camera is less of an issue. For the GTA crowd, not much needs to be said here. Combat in GTA TPP is also slow and wonky and it requires focus on cover mechanics to not die. That is not the style of play prevalent in CP2077.
In order for TPP to work in CP2077 they would have to slow down combat, instead of a condensed Night City the combat would have to be mostly in wide open areas which isn't the design philosophy they are going for with Night City. It's supposed to feel cramped and suffocating.

What you are asking for isn't just a perspective change but changing the entire DNA of the game
 
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I am suggesting the entire game would stay in FPP...

No files at all for TPP is the reason V has no natural reflections and weird shadow. Not ideal for FPP immersion.

TPP data (3d models, animations) in the games files would allow modders to make a good TPP mod.

Vanilla game would be the same it is now except V has reflections and realistic shadow.

So this is an oversimplification.

FPP is not the reason for the lack of reflections. In fact, we've had plenty of games in the past that were in FPP, had zero body model at all but had reflections. That's because until ray-tracing, mirrors were not actually reflecting anything. Developers were using various trick to simulate mirrors. There is a reason so many games avoid true reflections. This is were ray tracing truly comes into effect. It's actual reflections instead of the various tricks that have been used through the decades.

But it's also very demanding and many people are not able to make use of RT.

You can definitely have reflections, natural reflections, with FPP. It's a choice CDPR made.

With that said, what you're suggesting is a lot more work. A lot. These 3d models and animation have to be created, animated and tested thoroughly under many scenarios. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work added on top of a lot of work. What this would likely result in would be resources being split between FPP and TPP and neither would come close to what they could have been had they focused on a single one.

But let's say CDPR took the time to create all of this. Animate it and polish it. Why wouldn't they implement it at that point? Why would they just leave it in the backend for modders to implement and take the credit for? You've done 90% of the work by now, might as well finish.

I would rather they focus solely on FPP. They've proven they can make it work and make it work well. They should improve it, there are issues for sure, but it works very well.
 
The best approach would be to fully implement polished TPP on the back end. That means a complete 3D player model with correct proportions and animations for all in-game movement, combat, and interactions including eating, swimming and sitting.
I agree. With Unreal, we'll see what is and isn't doable.

In retrospect, I feel TPP and FPP should have both been in. I play FPP whenever possible, but the pushback with no TPP, given the host of other issues...not worth it, I think.

And we got...a lot of pushback. A lot.

A more Deus Ex option, where you have a functional TPP option, viewable at certain times (I like finishers, for example) and in reflective surfaces, would be the best compromise at this point. Encouraging modders is also a nice side benefit.

I don't think it would be that much of a change to the feel of the game - we all saw ourselves on bikes and inventory pretty steadily. Hell, I took so many action Photomode shots (well over 1000) half the time I see NC, I see myself in third person anyway, or a memory of -that- shot.

I am 100% certain this conversation is being had/has been had at HQ. What they decided, I don't know. I hope it's FPP and TPP though. I also feel that would buy a few extra percentage points from reviewers and users, just because of the current TPP prejudice. A useful boost to company morale, going from, say, 88% to 92%. Or whatever. That also matters to me - the devs took it in the face after Release.

So if at least Third Person was an option, well, yeah. That would be good on multiple fronts.
 
I agree. With Unreal, we'll see what is and isn't doable.

In retrospect, I feel TPP and FPP should have both been in. I play FPP whenever possible, but the pushback with no TPP, given the host of other issues...not worth it, I think.

And we got...a lot of pushback. A lot.
Yea i remember launch.. Im all for sticking with a FPP approch but i wanna see my V ingame. A fixed model and reflections would do for me. Its kinda counterproductive to have clothes and style and not seeing it in anything except menus and while driving, the bike with Vs hair not affected by air at all. :D yea i cant believe that has not been fixed yet -.-
 
"But it's also very demanding and many people are not able to make use of RT...

With that said, what you're suggesting is a lot more work. A lot. These 3d models and animation have to be created, animated and tested thoroughly under many scenarios. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work added on top of a lot of work. What this would likely result in would be resources being split between FPP and TPP and neither would come close to what they could have been had they focused on a single one."


Yes, it would be a lot of work. Whether it's worth it or not I don't know, just an option they could pursue that would satisfy different issues in addition to showing off their use of RT tech similar to current 2077 and PL. Orion is anywhere from 5-8ish years away and with the amount of people that will have upgraded to RT capable cards plus other advancements in DLSS it may not be such a terrible prospect.

"But let's say CDPR took the time to create all of this. Animate it and polish it. Why wouldn't they implement it at that point? Why would they just leave it in the backend for modders to implement and take the credit for?"

I think CDPR is less concerned with modders getting credit and more concerned with sales which an approach like this could potentially increase. I don't know how expensive it would be to implement this approach vs how much potential additional revenue they could make by doing it.

"I would rather they focus solely on FPP. They've proven they can make it work and make it work well. They should improve it, there are issues for sure, but it works very well."

It does work well and is the most pragmatic point making it the most likely thing they will do.
 
There is no point in putting game in FPP and then just adding files for TPP for modders to bring it out.
This will never happen.


UE5 models might help CDPR to make better FPP models which has TPP models but that's a long shot.
CDPR preferred FPP and TPP sucks in cp2077 to improve the look of FPP which is priority.
 
I don't see a reason to include TPP as an option. Why spend time making two camera perspectives (and everything required for them to work properly) for the entirety of a game when that same time would be better spent on developing the game itself? The former would only benefit at most 50% of future players, whereas the latter would benefit at least 90% of future players.

So many people are so very impatient today that the shorter development time that would result from not including TPP would be a win-win.


I always find FPP more immersive, and therefore the best option for RPGs.

If the game is going to have a customizable player character, then I absolutely don't see why there should be TPP. I don't play games to stare at characters or parts of them, and it has never bothered me that I can't see my V all the time.

I don't see myself in real life except in the mirror and photographs, so why should I see a character I've created to play as? No reason.
 
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