Lessons from Witcher 3

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dont make your sequels too standalone

To this end I've posited the idea that CP shouldn't consist of sequels at all, but stand alone stories with separate characters. Sort of an episodic approach of events in NC. None of the Witcher games are great sequels actually, in the sense of carrying over plot threads and characters. Video games in general don't do it well because teams don't know if their creations will get the funding for sequels, and lead writers are juggled around. Mass Effect series is the perfect example - ME4 is a fresh start in a new galaxy. When Bioware abandoned the idea in DA I, that's when the series got better.

Edit- I might do a poll on this down the road, to get a sense if fans around here would be open to a non-sequel approach.
 
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1) No level scaling items.
2) Quest design should be less linear, more branched.
3) They really need to create different UI for PC and consoles.
4) Don't use quest markers and icons for everything, really, it's Ubisoft style and it's bad.
5) More dialogues options and more dialogue outcomes.
 
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great graphics and effects, beautiful landscapes and environments, interesting characters, good game mecanics, awesom cinematics and fights, different outcoms for different choices,
-add fov slider, camera adjustment,
-better level of detail
-no fog of field hiding the landscape
 
That's simply incorrect - builds affect how you play in a pretty noticeable way, within reason, given the character and his class.

This is not true in my experience. I have pretty constantly had to ponder where should I throw my skillpoints because nearly everything appears equally worthless and lacking impact.

Out of context quotes are out of context - they meant that in a "if you're skilled enough, you can defeat a monster that an unskilled player, relying solely on stats, could not".

That is the thing I worry about. That the stats are shoved so far in the marginal and/or left so loose that they can be overcome without breaking much of a sweat. What's the point at that point anymore?
 
Because it makes me wonder how much is CDPR just taking inspiration, versus how much it's trying to imitate CP20. Even if the source of inspiration is a PnP game, CP77 is still a video game. It's not wrong for it to take liberties where needed to make the experience more enjoyable to the many people who don't like PnP, but can like the setting and atmosphere and CDPR's writing. CP20 is one thing, CP77 another.

Well, we do know the creator of the PnP game has waited years and years before selling the rights to the PnP to anyone precisely because he didn't want to see Cyberpunk used as inspiration for a shooter video game. We also know the folks at CDPR have played the PnP extensively before contacting the creator. We know they plan to make CP2077 an RPG first and foremost. So draw your own conclusions.

Turning a PnP game into a video game can be done well (Bloodlines, Torment), it can (and usually is) done horribly.
 
My impression of Witcher 3 was that although your skill choices absolutely mattered on Death March, IF you didn't like to die, they were more flavour choices at lower levels. And even on DM, once you hit 25 or so, you only died if you were watching TV at the same time.

Cyberpunk 2020 is, in it's PnP form, much, MUCH more focussed on skill and gear choices. You don't have any fancy powers as you level those skills up, or perks, ( although I wouldn't mind some minor, believable ones like faster reload times or longer sprint distance, just nothing silly like "I heal when I hit people with my sword"), but the repertoire of character choices and skillsets is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge. With extra u.

The play for a Rockerboy is so dramatically different than a Solo like Geralt. Sure, skills aren't Role-limited, but there is just no way said Rockerboy is going to win a violent face-off with four berserk Max-Tac agents. The solo might. The Rockerboy might get someone else to win the fight for him or have one of the Max Tac agents swap sides rather than fight his musical idol.

So yeah, 2077 and 2020 aren't the same game. Right now, 2020 is a really good game in it's genre, I think. 2077 should be trying to cleave closely to the 2020 model, not swap it for some video-game styled concessions.

We already have a very cool RPG-lite cyberpunk series, Deus Ex. If CDPR learns from Witcher 3, I hope it's , "That was really great. But it won't work for Cyberpunk. Let's do it so people really feel like they can play anyone and get things done anyway."




*Also levels and neat-o powers as you level up aren't a CRPG thing. It's a hoary old PnP tradition, mostly from DnD. So when you see that mechanism inuse, realize it's originally from Pen and Paper Role playing. And still kind of silly. "I'm a level 10..Carpenter!" What?
 
The strongest point of TW3 is arguably its characters & relationships. Creating believable interpersonal dynamics requires some kind of prehistory for the MC, whether it's predetermined by the writer, or chosen by the player as a character background is of secondary importance. Therefore I'd strongly oppose a classical blank-slate approach. Tabula rasa cannot loose anything, can't be bothered by obligations and so on.
In an ideal world, one could of course sculpt his avatar through enough choices allowing to create a developed fully fleshed character, but this would require tremendous amount of effort, far beyond what is financially and technically justifiable for any game (all of these choices need to be pre-programmed after all). So what we receive instead are cartoony, shallow archetypes - "bad", "good" & so on - broad strokes only, the dialog - main tool in the department of characterisation - mirrors the depth of the MC. It creates a paradox where allowing for the initial freedom of choice narrows the amount of actual, believable expressions of that very choice.
I'd rather see several predetermined options with carefully woven character interactions then your typical "amnesiac" - not everything should be the result of player's agency, as it hurts the storytelling and emotional involvement which is what makes a story an enjoyable experience - at least to me.
 
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oh also , dont show what you cant deviler now you have expierence working with 3 platforms so dont make the same mistakes
 
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Agreed.
For a game to have "depth" the character needs to have a background in, and knowledge of, the world in which they live. Yes, this means the players can't create any character they wish. But as @iz.podpolja pointed out the designers/writers can create multiple backstories, Dragon Age: Origins, the player can choose from.
 
Agreed.
For a game to have "depth" the character needs to have a background in, and knowledge of, the world in which they live. Yes, this means the players can't create any character they wish. But as @iz.podpolja pointed out the designers/writers can create multiple backstories, Dragon Age: Origins, the player can choose from.

Yeah I totally agree.

Sure I can't be whoever I want, but it doesn't mean ALL my creative RPG freedoms have to be locked.
 
That should be in Cyberpunk, cause is smog.
no,
one thing is that blue artificial fog hiding the beautiful landscape, and other different thing is actual realistic smog in the citiy, in the part of the citiy that there is smog, smoke+fog= smog, and don't hiding the cyberpunk citiy landscape ;)
 
Agreed.
For a game to have "depth" the character needs to have a background in, and knowledge of, the world in which they live. Yes, this means the players can't create any character they wish. But as @iz.podpolja pointed out the designers/writers can create multiple backstories, Dragon Age: Origins, the player can choose from.

Agree 100%. Fully blank slate characters are boring as fuck.
 
no,
one thing is that blue artificial fog hiding the beautiful landscape, )


Yeah, I live in a big city. We get a lot of days where your line of sight is crapola. Fog, rain, light diffusion. In a polluted city, ( and I've been to a few: Mexico City, Los Angeles, Cleveland, Shanghai.) your line of sight is crap.

Night City is a polluted city. Its landscape is beautiful in a tech-sense, not a nature-sense. There's smog nearly everywhere.

They'll probably have to run something to hide distant texture issues for people with lower end systems. How it goes. Hopefully we can turn it off.

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Agree 100%. Fully blank slate characters are boring as fuck.
We-ellll...you can create a backstory, like you would in actual Cyberpunk PnP.

Lifepath does this!

http://www.moosh.net/cp2020/lifepath-form.html
 
Good idea for a thread.

Here are some of my own points:

1) I really like W3. The main quests, side-quests and contracts were stellar. A++. However I felt that the scavenger hunts and random map markers were very "video-game-y". The main quest, side-quests and contracts made me feel like I was Geralt, but the scavenger hunts and random map markers made me feel like I was playing a video-game where the objective was to go to point a, get object b and get result c. I know it's a matter of man power and there are only so many hours in the day, but when every scavenger hunt is the same chest and every map marker is either a guarded treasure, bandits or a lost chest it really gets old after a while. It makes it feel like a video game and not an RPG, it break the immersion. In fact I would even prefer that there were MUCH fewer random map markers in W3 if they couldn't be made more individual and original.

2) I didn't particularly care for the mutagen and slot system in W3. It felt like you were always short on slots and instead of feeling like a bad ass with all those cool powers you unlock it felt like I was barely keeping pace with the game world and enemies. It felt like the system was handicapping your build rather than helping you out, if I had 6 free slots it felt very inefficient to combine 2 red and 4 blue powers. The best done leveling systems make you look at it and go "hell yea, I'm going to kick some ass". W3 mutagen and slot system always made me look at in and go "it's a mess, where shall I put that yellow power, I really wanted that delusion sign skill but it won't fit, sigh I guess it will have to do". I'm also not sure that being able to change your build so easily adds to the game, on the one hand you can change your build. On the other hand trying, and committing to, another kind of build is one of the best reasons there are for a second and third playthrough.

3) Which brings me to my third point. At higher difficulty levels, and in NG+ in particular, Witcher 3 is severely unbalanced, bordering on broken. I have always liked sign builds, in W1 you could kick ass through the entire game with a sign build. In W2 you could kick ass the entire game long with a sign build. In W3 I started out with a sign build and finished the main story with it, even though the last two boss fights were pretty difficult. Then I tried HoS with my sign build and hooolllleeee heeelll was it frustrating. There are some bosses in HoS which are pretty much immune to all signs, regenerate health and require sword damage to beat. Sure, this might be in keeping with the witcher lore and so forth. But if you give players the option to do a sign build I think you should be consequent and make that a viable playstyle the entire game through. In DM NG+ there is only one build that really works in my experience and that is lots of red combined with green synergy, decotions and quen. Everything else is bordering on masochistic. This is bad game design IMHO. Different builds and strategies should be viable even as the game progresses and the player reaches higher level. It's a bit like if you played through the entire Baldur's Gate 2 and then in the expansion you discover that the only build that really works is a fighter-mage hybrid class.

4) The world beyond the trodden path. The world in W3 is amazing, the mountains, the forests, the rivers.... the small bridge across the lake, the ruins in the forest, the ice on the lake.... I could go on forever. You have some very talented world designers on your team. However, it all feels pretty empty as long as you move outside the scope of a quest. In Skyrim you can wander off and get sidetracked for hours and hours, finding interesting ruins, people, books, lairs and weapons and armor as you go. In W3 when you wander off the beaten path the game feels pretty empty, the feeling you get is "damn, this setting is great they should have done something with it. How about a gwent playing troll under the bridge or SOMETHING". Some of my fondest memories from Skyrim were when I discovered a completely new and previously unknown dungeon or quest simply by exploring. I rarely got that in W3, and when I did the payoff was rarely that great. Don't be afraid to make big side quest and hide them from us. We will find them, we will play them, we will experience them, we will go crazy on the internet over them and we will love you for them. Don't try to make everything so streamlined, every player doesn't need to find or see everything on their first playthrough, it's ok.

5) Anything else than the custom armors and weapons in W3 felt pretty underwhelming. Not once did I find a set of armor, or a sword, which I wanted to replace my Griffin set with. After about 2/3 of the game I didn't even look at the stats anymore, I just kept the expensive ones and sold them. This was made worse by the fact that you are handed these supposedly legendary weapons in the story, like the swords you get from Hattori or Crach. Garbage both of them, sold within 5 minutes. Well - I kept Winter's Blade in my chest because it was a family heirloom and a gift, but you get the idea. Please don't do this. Having loot and supposedly epic weapons be so underwhelming can be pretty immersion breaking. The best designed weapons and armor in other RPGs have unique traits that force you to make trade-offs based on your playstyle and other gear. And no - having a different crit change doesn't count as unique, sorry. Look at all the weapons in Baldur's Gate 2 for instance, like the "flail of ages" or "spider's bane". Those are unique weapons with unique traits that really makes the player care.

I'm sure I could come up with more but I think those are some of my biggest points right now.
 
Yeah, but that backstory is useless and a worthless effort if the quest design and dialogue trees don't aknowledge that allowing you to play that role (and it's impossible to do, is the biggest limitation of a videogame over a PnP)

I..guess? I mean, yes, sure...but those values help me determine how I make my in-game choices, not whether some NPC goes, "Hey, you're the guy whose family was wiped out by Nomads!".

That's cool when it happens, but in PnP, that doesn't happen too often...or at all, in many games. A GM just has too much to do.

It's more of a guide for you to create a personality and past for your character, not to put it on others to create a world that responds to the past of special old you.

Especially not in Cyberpunk, where you are a low-life in a big world.
 
I..guess? I mean, yes, sure...but those values help me determine how I make my in-game choices, not whether some NPC goes, "Hey, you're the guy whose family was wiped out by Nomads!".

That's cool when it happens, but in PnP, that doesn't happen too often...or at all, in many games. A GM just has too much to do.

It's more of a guide for you to create a personality and past for your character, not to put it on others to create a world that responds to the past of special old you.

Especially not in Cyberpunk, where you are a low-life in a big world.
Yet ignoring the character's traits, past and present even, makes for a much more shallow narrative experience. You cannot have Yen vs Geralt kind of relationship (or even Yen vs Triss dilemma) if it's only an afterthought. You cannot have an asshole abusive husband, or loose your home due to gambling debts which leads to your wife leaving you and taking children with her, you cannot be a brilliant young black guy who struggles to find a job allowing to show his abilities, who reflects on this sitting on a cheap public bus with not even a fleck of white skin to be seen around.
To have lifelike relation with the world, you need the game to believably acknowledge these kinds of backstories, "personal facets" - if you like (not saying that they all apply to CP77), otherwise the role-playing aspect of the game boils down to sandboxy messing with game mechanics (usually involving factions) which is fun, but extremely meh in terms of interpersonal dynamics, because it's something very difficult for a game to accommodate the whole spectrum of possible personality traits in one (or even several to be honest) narrative in a such way that NPC reactions are even remotely believable.
However if the game knew beforehand what are the possible types ("Geralts" - if you will), it would make for a much better experience in this regard with more tightly woven story and this unique kind of satisfaction when your avatar says exactly what it would. In this way one can in fact get more customised narrative with several vastly different types of personalities represented well.
As I mentioned in my previous post, characters & relationships are what CDPR does extremely well; and IMO inserting a total blank-slate on one side of the relationship's equation would be for CDPR akin to Bethesda trying to get rid of theexploration aspect of their games.
 
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