RPG & unjustified expectations?

[SaulTuk]

random encounters might be entertaining, but they aren't that realistic. in a big city people are generally following their own personal script and very rarely do things like random encounters happen.

What is some type of random encounter you would expect to happen in a real world big city?

That said, its not a real world, its videogame, and I see why unexpected things happening might be more entertaining to you, but generally the price to be paid is a less logical/consistent gameworld, and it requires a different type of developer skill set/engine.

this may change as technology increases.

Well, we have an excellent example of an open world with strong plot and narrative - RDR2.
For example, i rode a horse to the skirts of Blackwater, then suddenly i heard a desperate cry for help. Then i saw the woman being robbed, and just before i aimed my gun the robber stabbed the poor woman, so the only thing i could do was to avenge her death and shoot the robber. But that was not the end! Then her husband came, crying and lamenting, took her body and went away. And i absolutely sure that if only i could shoot first, the woman would live and, with her husband, thank me for help. Random encounter with branching as its finest.
That little story, unmarked on map or in journal, affected me more than half of all side quests in CP77. And that was just one of many random encounters in RDR2.

So, the technology is already here, devs should just try harder and learn from the best)

Post automatically merged: Aug 12, 2021

Given Delamain is a character from beyond the Black Wall, you could actually just have V run a cab service in Night city in that ending.

Not half bad way to retire. After all, the Kaine himself run a cab in VtM: Bloodlines)

 

[LeKill3rFou]

That little story, unmarked on map or in journal, affected me more than half of all side quests in CP77. And that was just one of many random encounters in RDR2.

Radom encounter maybe, but if you replay it, they happen at the same place, same order and with same enemies/NPCs. Like the blind wanderer who appears in the path near Arthur until you talk to him. Like if you see him in St Denis (you ignore him), he reappears in Valentine (by magic, he's faster than a horse...). The dude simply follow you.
(it's the same for the guys who want to open a safe,....)
So "random" is a "big" word for those type of encounter in RDR2, in my opinion.

 

[SaulTuk]

Radom encounter maybe, but if you replay it, they happen at the same place, same order and with same enemies/NPCs. Like the blind wanderer who appears in the path near Arthur until you talk to him. Like if you see him in St Denis (you ignore him), he reappears in Valentine (by magic, he's faster than a horse...). The dude simply follow you.
(it's the same for the guys who want to open a safe,....)
So "random" is a "big" word for those type of encounter in RDR2, in my opinion.

Well, CP77 hasn't got even that much, the city is dead, inert and unresponsive to player's actions. Side jobs and gigs are scripted and, except for The Pickup, haven't even got the branching outcomes. As a linear looter-shooter CP77 is way worse than Borderlands)

 

[lyin321]

Well, CP77 hasn't got even that much, the city is dead, inert and unresponsive to player's actions. Side jobs and gigs are scripted and, except for The Pickup, haven't even got the branching outcomes. As a linear looter-shooter CP77 is way worse than Borderlands)

....that is funny thing to say

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Well, CP77 hasn't got even that much, the city is dead, inert and unresponsive to player's actions. Side jobs and gigs are scripted and, except for The Pickup, haven't even got the branching outcomes. As a linear looter-shooter CP77 is way worse than Borderlands)

Matter of taste, in CP there are many ways for doing the same "job", than Borderlands there is only one, shoot in the pile in HP bags (and the same in RDR2 where all the quests are scripted, same enemies at same places at the same time)
Don't get me wrong, I like BD a lot (same for RDR2), but CP is way more "subtil" in my opinion

 

[SaulTuk]

....that is funny thing to say

And as cyberpunk-themed action-rpg with strong narrative and meaningful choices Deus Ex Mankind Divided is better, although lacks massive PR-campaign).

CP77 open world is way worse than in GTA V and slightly worse than even in the ancient San Andreas)

Post automatically merged: Aug 12, 2021

Yes, you can open some doors and hatches with proper attributes, but that's minor thing. Missions with really different ways are scarcely few, like The Pickup.
Stealth and non-lethal style lacks any sense, it doesn't reward player in any way, including endings. I thought that non-lethal style will help V keep his humanity and all that, but no.

 

[lyin321]

And as cyberpunk-themed action-rpg with strong narrative and meaningful choices Deus Ex Mankind Divided is better, although lacks massive PR-campaign).

CP77 open world is way worse than in GTA V and slightly worse than even in the ancient San Andreas)

...ok? To be honest, I haven't (nor am I interested in) played the GTA games so you might be right.
The mankind divided I tried to play, but quit it after the first mission. I got bored with it, but that very well might have been my bias against games with no CC. It probably is not a boring game

 

[SaulTuk]

...ok? To be honest, I haven't (nor am I interested in) played the GTA games so you might be right, who knows.
The mankind divided I tried to play, but quit it after the first mission. I got bored with it, but that very well might have been my bias against games with no CC. It probably is not a boring game

And i prefer CC in real life, in historical re-enactment).
In videogames i prefer stealthy and tactical approach.
Which would fit CP77 excellently, if we remembered that plot-wise V is a fugitive and wanted man, needing shelter and avoiding any fuss and noise. But noo, after chip job V walks the city openly, and Arasaka pursuers act passively even in the main plot right until the very end.

 

[CS554]

...ok? To be honest, I haven't (nor am I interested in) played the GTA games so you might be right.
The mankind divided I tried to play, but quit it after the first mission. I got bored with it, but that very well might have been my bias against games with no CC. It probably is not a boring game

I did. The first Deus Ex is probably my most played story driven game, went it trough three times. I played the sequels, even finished and SaulTuk appears to have had very different kind of experience there. I really liked GTA: Vice City and San Andreas, I think I went through those twice. For San Andreas I can say that area is huge with three major locations but it's quite obvious that while buildings are there, developers didn't had time to finish with it. In game stand in for Las Vegas looks pretty but that's about that.

GTA: IV then, there was smaller map but in theory more stuff to do, like go to bowling but maybe once I did, and story but I noticed that I just liked driving, it has best driving physics and feel of entire series, though bit of a learning curve. Anyway, I read they made driving simple again in GTA: V and I never even tried that, I guess it may be in Xbox gamepass, have seen it in sale for many times but formula just ain't for me anymore.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Well, we have an excellent example of an open world with strong plot and narrative - RDR2.
For example, i rode a horse to the skirts of Blackwater, then suddenly i heard a desperate cry for help. Then i saw the woman being robbed, and just before i aimed my gun the robber stabbed the poor woman, so the only thing i could do was to avenge her death and shoot the robber. But that was not the end! Then her husband came, crying and lamenting, took her body and went away. And i absolutely sure that if only i could shoot first, the woman would live and, with her husband, thank me for help. Random encounter with branching as its finest.
That little story, unmarked on map or in journal, affected me more than half of all side quests in CP77. And that was just one of many random encounters in RDR2.

So, the technology is already here, devs should just try harder and learn from the best)

Post automatically merged: Aug 12, 2021

Not half bad way to retire. After all, the Kaine himself run a cab in VtM: Bloodlines)

that type of stuff happened in cyberpunk. there's two dudes arguing in a back alley, if you leave them alone one kills the other guy. However you
can intervene, and change fate.

however I more meant random people telling you their problems and expecting you to solve them, or witnessing some huge drama you can get involved in. Even if you overheard people talking about their problems in NYC, if you jump in their convo, they will probably look at you funny, ignore you, or otherwise disengage.

rdr is a different type of setting with a different purpose of the story, they are going to present an open world differently. In a frontier world, every person is possible friend or enemy. In a future imperfect city, the vast majority of people you will have no meaningful interactions with.

 

[Dexhii]

But noo, after chip job V walks the city openly, and Arasaka pursuers act passively even in the main plot right until the very end.

There's actually quite a few story reasons for this. Huge spoilers below obviously

Spoiler: Arasaka Spoilers

1. Yorinobu Arasaka didn't actually care much for the chip. He only stole it from Saburo because he knew the chip granted immortality. The last thing he wanted for his father Saburo to live on forever.
2. Yorinobu hated Arasaka. He wanted to lead over Arasaka to destroy it from within. Once he committed patricide, control over the corporation was guaranteed and immortality for his father all but over.
3. The whole things with the chip also involved the assassination of Saburo. Yorinobu blamed the assassination on Takemura (happens in game). Thus, V was out of the picture. You can also figure that if Arasaka actually investigated they would've known it wasn't a simple poisoning.

This also coincides with Takemura and Hanako actually being the ones to chase you. Hanako especially represented an entire different "faction" within Arasaka and was one of the few who was willing to save the corporation. And Takemura wanted to save his honour.

Yorinobu spends the entire game "consolidating" the corporation by closing a whole bunch of offices.

And probably a lesser reason, but it might have contributed "lore" wise as opposed to story wise...

• Arasaka in some ways was curious to what was gonna happen with V. The Relic 2.0 chip wasn't proven to work. If anything, it didn't work. It even mentions "until an unplanned undertaking of the process by a living individual.". That was V.
• The single-mindedness of Arasaka also contributes. Once Yorinobu took over the other factions bent the knee, and he dictated policy. If he didn't want to know who "assassinated" his father -- Arasaka wasn't going to spend any significant resources investigating.

And that's why only in the end do you truly feel the full might of Arasaka. Especially on the DFTR ending. And ironically, in every other ending except for the Devil one, he gets what he wants and Arasaka is effectively done for.

The initial "hunt" was nothing more than a script. Arasaka was required to respond and when they lost sight of you, they stopped caring. This is all explained throughout the game btw.

And to say it in a non-spoiler way.. Arasaka was simply too busy.

EDIT: loooore

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

It also depend of the type of weapon that you use... With "Problem Solver", "Fenrir", Omaha (Lizzie) or a simple Lexington, you simply aim the lower part of them, and you hit the leg for sure. With an Overture or Overwatch, that's not as easy

Hah, funny that. I frequently used either Prototype or DWS and just held the trigger (or repeatedly tapped in Prototype's case
I'm sure limbs were hit.
The one thing I however never seen happen, and I presume it can't, is that you can cripple them.

Post automatically merged: Aug 13, 2021

And to say it in a non-spoiler way.. Arasaka was simply too busy.

I wish Militech /Arasaka fights would burst out more frequently with some lore drops that would explain that Militech want to try and capitaiize on the theft. expose Arasaka's weakness or whatever have you.
I would love it if sometimes Arasaka is trying to hunt you or any merc for that matter as if they want to pressure the streets, but Militech sometimes prevents it, creates these funny triangle situations that explain, it would maybe to a long way too.

I'm thinking that some assault in progress thingies may have been aimed to try and explain it, but becasue they dont really feel like an "in progress"
act it may not get that message across.

 

[Dexhii]

I wish Militech /Arasaka fights would burst out more frequently with some lore drops that would explain that Militech want to try and capitaiize on the theft. expose Arasaka's weakness or whatever have you.
I would love it if sometimes Arasaka is trying to hunt you or any merc for that matter as if they want to pressure the streets, but Militech sometimes prevents it, creates these funny triangle situations that explain, it would maybe to a long way too.

I'm thinking that some assault in progress thingies may have been aimed to try and explain it, but becasue they dont really feel like an "in progress"
act it may not get that message across.

I think the stealing of the chip was small fry. I doubt even many people outside the ones involved even knew. Many of them dead before they could even spread the information around. At worst, it could've been seen as someone wanting to make a construct. They already sold it to billionaires. Militech probably didn't even know it was a special prototype. Had they have known, they definitely would've acted as they were supposedly the ones that supplied the nuke that blasted Arasaka in the first place, and Johnny's construct might've acted as a witness.

I remember one gig specifically that involved Arasaka blaming an attack on Militech through disguised valentino gang members. Padre even mentions Militech not wanting war "Militech will delay, prepare and prepare some more" and closes with "Not my board, not my game".


So I think that it's definitely in the game, but except for the small gigs and like you said the assaults there's not any real public action. Again, Militech probably saw ...

Spoiler: More story spoilers

Yorinobu taking over as the perfect end to Arasaka. They probably didn't want another full out war, and with master saboteur Yori at the helm they only needed to sit back and watch the corporation implode. Their intelligence network would've at least known of Yorinobu's "consolidations" or worse his involvement in the war and his sabotage of Arasaka back then.

They never needed to directly intervene. I hope DLC's go more into the relation and conflict between the megacorps. There's just too much stuff to explore!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

There's just too much stuff to explore!

A little bit sad, knowing CDPR will probably release "only" two "big" DLCs...

 

[CS554]

I remember one gig specifically that involved Arasaka blaming an attack on Militech through disguised valentino gang members. Padre even mentions Militech not wanting war "Militech will delay, prepare and prepare some more" and closes with "Not my board, not my game".

Spoiler: spoiler

My take on that was that Militech was not ready for war. I can't pin it down where exactly, but I recall some mission, might have been NCDP stuff where it became pretty clear that Militech is playing similar game with 6th Street as Arasaka with Tyger Claws. It's also interesting that while gig you mention, would have been huge victory for Arasaka to spin public opinion to throw Militech out of the city, Arasaka gaining more influence over Valentino's would work as very effective pincher move, cornering 6th Street.

The whole background for scenario isn't explored in game. I learned this via Mike Pondsmith interview on the MadQueen show. Militech isn't what it looks like either and behind the scenes it's mirror image of Saburo's way of thinking, old people holding grudges that they can't let go. Both corporations also present corporate fascism. It's imo sort of nice touch as it can seen as variation of the horseshoe theory.

Your scenario about Militech and Yorinobu is IMO spot on.

 

[Dexhii]

A little bit sad, knowing CDPR will probably release "only" two "big" DLCs...

You can chart that up to "unjustified expectations". I just hope that the DLC at least expands on what we already have because it is so barebones.

Every single time I play through the game I keep going "all this potential...." and I wouldn't say "wasted" but it comes close. Mike Pondsmith has effectively made new lore specifically for this game in close collaboration with CDPR. I mean, he's even in talks right now for the DLC doing .. probably the same thing.


It sucks because there's just so much interesting stuff. And they don't explore it. The further you get into the game the more apparent that becomes. I expected just that little bit more. Even if it's two big DLC's it might not even be enough.

The city itself, the romance options, the corps, the gangs, the nomads, the mercs at the afterlife, Lizzy Wizzy / the 0.1% and their opulence The braindances.. etc etc etc. All of it is there. And some of it is explored, but so much of it is left alone or only skimmed through. And that's so sad. Everything they do focus on is amazing. "Sinnerman" is... something else. They can do it.

Mike made so much Cyberpunk, and allowed no-one to make a game about it until now. There is just too much Cyberpunk to fit in Cyberpunk 2077. Even with DLC I doubt they'll be able to do it justice.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

It sucks because there's just so much interesting stuff. And they don't explore it. The further you get into the game the more apparent that becomes. I expected just that little bit more. Even if it's two big DLC's it might not even be enough.

The city itself, the romance options, the corps, the gangs, the nomads, the mercs at the afterlife, Lizzy Wizzy / the 0.1% and their opulence The braindances.. etc etc etc. All of it is there. And some of it is explored, but so much of it is left alone or only skimmed through. And that's so sad. Everything they do focus on is amazing. "Sinnerman" is... something else. They can do it.

Mike made so much Cyberpunk, and allowed no-one to make a game about it until now. There is just too much Cyberpunk to fit in Cyberpunk 2077. Even with DLC I doubt they'll be able to do it justice.

Yeah, impossible to fit all in one game (even with DLCs)
I see CP2077 as an introduction to the Cyberpunk world, but because of that it can't explore anything in depth...

 

[CS554]

You can chart that up to "unjustified expectations". I just hope that the DLC at least expands on what we already have because it is so barebones.

Every single time I play through the game I keep going "all this potential...." and I wouldn't say "wasted" but it comes close. Mike Pondsmith has effectively made new lore specifically for this game in close collaboration with CDPR. I mean, he's even in talks right now for the DLC doing .. probably the same thing.


It sucks because there's just so much interesting stuff. And they don't explore it. The further you get into the game the more apparent that becomes. I expected just that little bit more. Even if it's two big DLC's it might not even be enough.

The city itself, the romance options, the corps, the gangs, the nomads, the mercs at the afterlife, Lizzy Wizzy / the 0.1% and their opulence The braindances.. etc etc etc. All of it is there. And some of it is explored, but so much of it is left alone or only skimmed through. And that's so sad. Everything they do focus on is amazing. "Sinnerman" is... something else. They can do it.

Mike made so much Cyberpunk, and allowed no-one to make a game about it until now. There is just too much Cyberpunk to fit in Cyberpunk 2077. Even with DLC I doubt they'll be able to do it justice.

I see it like William Gibson haven't didn't allowed Hollywood to adapt Neuromancer. The cyberpunk is very complex genre, while for Hollywood sees that as a problem and want to be able to cash with whatever is popular. That's the nature of business but then results can be utter bastardizations with nothing to say.

That said CP 2077 is very complex game, and there are tradeoffs. But it definitely is relevant work in cyberpunk genre and that doesn't happen often. Gaming is sort of weird cultural bubble where it has tried to associate itself with serious themes, but in the end it's all judged by some arbitrary video game standards and CP 2077 changes things here. Mike Pondsmith is very well read in economics, including social economic theories, political philosophy, history... Say Aldecaldos and what context players place them, it's actually mainly John Stuart Mill and his work on modern liberalism studied there. For players who can accept the premise, like this ain't GTA, this ain't about being big hero, that it is actually cyberpunk, that quite a bit of it is based on real ideas, I think that contributes a lot to experience regardless if players are aware of those ideas already.

Easy to think that video game, it's audio-visual, like a movie and problem would be: so how would that look? Instead I get quite the vibe that in CP 2077 production they went like: so how would it work?

Executing these ideas, it can't work unless characters are believable and there's ton of motion captioning done, attention to body language and voice acting has to match all that. Realistically product has to ship at some point and I think game does justice to not only Mike Pondsmith work but also entire genre. There are intriguing opportunities, no doubt about that.

Yeah, impossible to fit all in one game (even with DLCs)
I see CP2077 as an introduction to the Cyberpunk world, but because of that it can't explore anything in depth...

It would be strange from them to not aim for sequel or even entire franchise. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if sequel would be quite different. COVID situation will pass and I for one, I don't know if I will have time to ever play that. One can hope though that they are willing to keep up with what they created in this game. But I don't see them necessarily going that route. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but sometimes it's good to enjoy what we have. Let's see first how those DLC's turn out.

 

[SaulTuk]

There's actually quite a few story reasons for this. Huge spoilers below obviously

Spoiler: Arasaka Spoilers

1. Yorinobu Arasaka didn't actually care much for the chip. He only stole it from Saburo because he knew the chip granted immortality. The last thing he wanted for his father Saburo to live on forever.
2. Yorinobu hated Arasaka. He wanted to lead over Arasaka to destroy it from within. Once he committed patricide, control over the corporation was guaranteed and immortality for his father all but over.
3. The whole things with the chip also involved the assassination of Saburo. Yorinobu blamed the assassination on Takemura (happens in game). Thus, V was out of the picture. You can also figure that if Arasaka actually investigated they would've known it wasn't a simple poisoning.

This also coincides with Takemura and Hanako actually being the ones to chase you. Hanako especially represented an entire different "faction" within Arasaka and was one of the few who was willing to save the corporation. And Takemura wanted to save his honour.

Yorinobu spends the entire game "consolidating" the corporation by closing a whole bunch of offices.

And probably a lesser reason, but it might have contributed "lore" wise as opposed to story wise...

• Arasaka in some ways was curious to what was gonna happen with V. The Relic 2.0 chip wasn't proven to work. If anything, it didn't work. It even mentions "until an unplanned undertaking of the process by a living individual.". That was V.
• The single-mindedness of Arasaka also contributes. Once Yorinobu took over the other factions bent the knee, and he dictated policy. If he didn't want to know who "assassinated" his father -- Arasaka wasn't going to spend any significant resources investigating.

And that's why only in the end do you truly feel the full might of Arasaka. Especially on the DFTR ending. And ironically, in every other ending except for the Devil one, he gets what he wants and Arasaka is effectively done for.

The initial "hunt" was nothing more than a script. Arasaka was required to respond and when they lost sight of you, they stopped caring. This is all explained throughout the game btw.

And to say it in a non-spoiler way.. Arasaka was simply too busy.

EDIT: loooore

Thank you, now i have one question less.
And how can you explain a clear contradiction in biochip operation in the epilogue? If chip could successfully rewrite body for chip's inhabitant (Johnny), why the very same chip couldn't rewrite body again for a new chip inhabitant, V? To create cheap, late and unjustified drama of death in 6 months?

 

[Dexhii]

Thank you, now i have one question less.
And how can you explain a clear contradiction in biochip operation in the epilogue? If chip could successfully rewrite body for chip's inhabitant (Johnny), why the very same chip couldn't rewrite body again for a new chip inhabitant, V? To create cheap, late and unjustified drama of death in 6 months?

Spoiler: Endgame spoilers

One of the things that happens in the endgame is... (I'll quote some things from the wiki)

Alt, explains that, while she exists as an engram, uploaded to the net, she has no consciousness and effectively poses a role of a rogue AI.

But more importantly...

She adds that the real Alt died with her organic body once Johnny severed the connection between the engram and her consciousness during the 2013 Arasaka raid.

What I take from that is that, when Alt blasted V with soulkiller she was able to separate engram Johnny from real V, she then used her AI to "fill in the gaps" that were created when Johnny left and that allowed Alt to upload V back into her own body, and since the connection never got severed "the real" V never died like alt did. But again, using soulkiller on a living host usually kills the host?

Alt mentions that although V is an engram/construct V can be uploaded back into V's own brain. Which is different than being uploaded back in the chip?

Thus, V doesn't exist on the relic chip, and has no control over it. It's still shown V is taking blockers in some ending to stop the process, meaning it wasn't paused entirely due to Johnny dissappering. I think that is why that 6 month window exists.

Some people online are even saying V is actually on the relic, but V hasn't figured out a way to "kick start" the process that eventually takes over the body. In the case of johnny that was entirely accidental. Due to V getting shot.

This maybe a cool DLC idea but if V could somehow be killed and kick start the 2.0 process you could surmise it would then take back V's own body.

So honestly? I do not know. It's vague.

That's my point of view on it. It's a still a bit weird, yes. That I agree with. I don't think it's as much a plot hole as it is something they left deliberately vague.


Almost requires it's own thread. I'll refrain from going too much off topic from now on.

EDIT: watched a few endings, they actually provide some more lore. And an online discussion.