This is your suggestion, not a bug. The card would be too weak as a legendary.
Cow Carcass can be destroyed (or replayed) before it triggers. There are plenty of cards that can be used to counter it.
You shouldn't immediately scream "nerf please" because you can't handle the situation.
Cow Carcass can be destroyed (or replayed) before it triggers. There are plenty of cards that can be used to counter it.
You shouldn't immediately scream "nerf please" because you can't handle the situation.
4RM3D;n7726860 said:
Just because there are ways to handle the effect it doesn't mean the card is balanced and these are far from it! From a numerical objective viewpoint they are always a win win for the nilf.
They do need to be silver - they only need to kill a 4 strength unit to hit the 8 point minimum for a bronze unit to be efficient, that is laughably easy to do. Even if you can kill the cow the opponent comes out ahead as they maintain the 4 points from the tosser whilst dealing with them costs an Alzur's, Shroom, manticore, it doesn't matter how you deal with it, at best it will always come down to a 1 for 1 exchange of cards where the Nilf player always gets +4 strength.
The only exception to this win win for the tosser is in decoying the cow back at them, you can typically only do this once though so even if you do happen to have 1 of your 25 cards available they could still have another in their hand, they more than likely will have one in their deck. (ST can do it 3 times for the low price of 2 silvers and a gold)
If the card was silver the card would be acceptable - if a 10 point swing is the base line for silvers you'd only need to take out 2 3 pointers or some other combination that kills 6 points worth of units to make it profitable, perhaps giving it a stronger base strength would be needed to compensate though its unlikely seeing as these things regularly net 9+ points of damage if they go off. Even if they were silver and someone decoyed them back it has cost the decoy card, any other interaction results in a net gain for the tosser and even then he could always play and win the game of putrid cow ping pong. On top of that the threat this card presents would force an opponent to hold their decoy should they need too deal with it even if the nilf didn't actually have the card in the deck. The only other solution would be to make damage dealing cards capable of killing them, either by making them all capable of self harming like the SK ones or make some special exception for the cow but that is a tad boring.
The OP was over reacting about it but you're wrong if you think they can honestly be countered, and that's not even the worst offender in the NG collection, the vico medics are up to 21 points of value against ST running 3 BMcommandos + a card, though in honesty that could be fixed by making the commandos+mercs fleeting cards.
Redcoat2012;n7737030 said:
It's like Borkh (Villentretenmerth) and Pavetta made love and gave birth to
Rot Tosser is basically a timed Epidemic, only targeting the opposite side. It has a buff and penalty. Lets compare it with other cards:
- Epidemic (bronze) => added effect: "double the effect" => becomes silver (Pavetta).
- Scorch (silver) => added effect: "opponents rows only" => becomes gold (Igni, Schirru)
- Scorch (silver) => added effect: "double the effect" => becomes platinum (non-existent; too OP) => added penalty: "timer" => becomes gold (Borkh)
--------------------------------
- Epidemic (bronze) => added effect: "opponents rows only" => becomes silver => added penalty: "timer" => becomes bronze (Rot Tosser)
Rot Tosser is okay compared to other similar cards relative to their quality.
4RM3D;n7737510 said:
Giving it a 1 turn timer does not warrant it being downgraded from silver to bronze using your drastically over simplified power calculations, imagine if they made katakans a 1 turn timer and bronze that would be sickening, your method just doesn't work. You can either respond to it with a decoy or lose in some manner, if you need to fish for a counter the timer does nothing to weaken the unit, the only thing it does is disguise what is in essence a bronze Pavetta! 1 turn timers would maybe grant the tosser a slight increase on base strength not the ability to field 3 of the things, ultimately timers are poor balancing mechanics as it often comes down to whether you have the means to deal with them or not, and sometimes timers improve units (kambi/Borch - play more cards you are going to lose or pass if possible).
You've completely glossed over the most game breaking element of this card and provided no response to it. It grants the user FREE strength value, there is no 1 for 1 card exchange that results in a zero sum trade, in card games this is utterly unacceptable. Again no matter what card you use to counter the cow you lose a bronze card and gain zero board power whilst the tosser is granted 4 strength, its always a win win for the user.
If the cow only dealt 2 damage to the row it would be acceptable to be able to field 3 of them as the victim can choose to ignore them, but at current you're forced to respond if possible. They very often become 16 strength bronze cards if not more, I'm not saying that the proper use of a card should gain no advantage over just using an 8 strength card the problem is that the proper counters to these still grant an advantage for the original user. 3x4 strength rows are very common in NR, ST is varied but often has many neophytes on a row or 3x3 mercs etc, Monsters and SK are often even more painfully effected by these tossers.
The only exception to this lose lose for the opponent is the decoy interaction, which can only be done once, when you consider it cost the opponent their decoy the returned cow would need to remove 14 pts of value to break even. With the way NG plays they rarely have rows stacked with similar strength units so the effect the cow has on them would vary drastically, + the NG can just decoy them back, this is healthy game play IMO hence why I feel they need to be restricted to 1 card.
As long as these destroy units, bypass quen/shields, (quen shields should block scorch/epidemic/igni style effects as they are somewhat worthless at current due to the sheer amount of bypassers) and cannot be taken out by units like wild hunt warriors the list of counters is low and very costly. If bronze cards baseline at 8 strength then manticore/spores/epidemics etc would need to be used to take out or provide 8pts worth of strength throughout the game, this means using them against the cow has made the tosser worth 12 points - that is gold tier minimum strength in a scenario you deemed 'countered'!
I can think of a whole bunch of solutions to fix these but the quickest/easiest in my mind is making them silver as the others I've mentioned would require changing some fundamental mechanics; Quen shields changing to be non bypassable and archer style units able to effect all non gold units friend or foe would take away from SK identity.
These are one of the most over powered units in the game at current, with vico medics being another though often due to problems with other cards, such as Blue Mountain Commandos.
Last edited:
Redcoat2012;n7744080 said:
You can't turn every silver ability into a bronze + timer. I've only compared similar cards. Using Katakan or any other silver isn't a fair comparison.
Redcoat2012;n7744080 said:
Using 1 bronze card can still wreak havoc, like Epidemic or Tremors. Those could also have a potentially way higher power advantage than your average bronze. There are also cards like Blue Mountain Commando or Behemoth that can bring a lot of power unto the board. It's impossible to balance all cards individually and their potential combos. But that's okay. As long as their power remains within reach of counter-plays.
Redcoat2012;n7744080 said:
Yeah, they might be a bit threatening, but this applies to many bronze cards. Playing against the old ST, Elven Mercs got sniped ASAP. Playing against Monster Devour, Nekkers and Behemoths are the first to get assaulted.
Redcoat2012;n7744080 said:
Having (a lot of) units of the same (lowest/highest) strength is always a risk. There is Epidemic, Scorch and every variation thereof. This just makes it an ideal target for Rot Tosser. In ideal situations everything is strong.
Redcoat2012;n7744080 said:
Or like I've mentioned:
- Epidemic
- Cleaver (locking)
- Henselt (promoting)
- Monsters' devourer
- Dol Blathanna Trapper
- Blue Mountain Commander
Depending on the urge of removing the carcass, you can take more drastic measures. Still, if you are poised against ST, you can bet your carcass gets kindly returned by a BMC. Playing against Monsters, the carcass gets eaten. In those situations your 'Scissors' gets crushed by a 'Rock'.
Redcoat2012;n7744080 said:
I agree cards like those are usually at the top of the food chain. But you know, someone has to be at the top. As long as it's not trying to beat a Lion with your bare hands.
Rot Tosser can be very effective or quite useless. It very much depends on the situation.
When the round is rolling a bit, there are usually enough weak cards which are just played to buff another one. If they are on the same row as high strength ones, Rot Tosser becomes quite useless.
It's greatest value is that it disturbs the opponents playstyle. He either has to deal with it or looses a unit which has to stay on board for the strategy to work.
Sure, if you have just a buffed Erredin on board in round 3 and a dead cow lands next to him...
You either have another melee unit left or you've been outplayed
As any other remover card it either punishes putting all points in one unit(type) in one row, or delays your strategy
P.S.
I'm not playing that long, but if I get just an 8 point swing with a few bronze cards, I usually loose that game
When the round is rolling a bit, there are usually enough weak cards which are just played to buff another one. If they are on the same row as high strength ones, Rot Tosser becomes quite useless.
It's greatest value is that it disturbs the opponents playstyle. He either has to deal with it or looses a unit which has to stay on board for the strategy to work.
Sure, if you have just a buffed Erredin on board in round 3 and a dead cow lands next to him...
You either have another melee unit left or you've been outplayed
As any other remover card it either punishes putting all points in one unit(type) in one row, or delays your strategy
P.S.
I'm not playing that long, but if I get just an 8 point swing with a few bronze cards, I usually loose that game
4RM3D;n7748110 said:
You don't understand the complete picture I think...
1. He's Bronze so you can use 3 and decoy him for 4 times
2. You always gain 4 strength advantage, if enemy uses Thunder or Manticore to kill him you will still have the Tosser
3. Enemy has 1 turn to kill your lowest unit to hit a higher unit
4. Enemy has 1 turn to play a weather effect for a board clear
5. If you send him over to his field he has this 8 strength gold card to eat him for a card draw.
6. You can put him in an empty row and play the 12 strenght spy card that lets you draw a card and kill it for free card advantage and 4 strenght
the problem with the card is the timing , you cannot react by placing a weak unit and let it die because the opponent acts last and he can just kill the weak unit and the cow will kill the stronger unit anyway, i think they might change that in the future even though i think they will need to counter-balance that with other changes in NG - they need to buff other units which are pretty bad
Struyk;n7748900 said:
1) and 2) are not exclusive to Rot Tosser
3) costs another card (which might be a combo too expansive)
4) works with Lacerate and Epidemic (and others) also
5) is a possibility, but you can't prevent every tactic in every situation
6) is smart play, but that's only the combo that makes it interesting.
There are a dozen examples where bronze cards can go through the roof with certain combos and all of those combos are threatening but can still be countered. Just one simple example:
Ekimmara
At first you might consider this unit nothing too special. Pre-patch it was an okay unit to trigger the devour buff. Now it's agile, which means you can eat a unit on a different row to dodge the likes of weather or Igni (or Rot Tosser!). This flexibility makes it an awesome unit. But the real danger comes from the new Monster passive, which keeps the last played unit on the field. So you can use Ekimmara to devour the strongest unit and have a nice head start the next round. The whole shebang makes this unit now silver-worthy. Even then it's not the unit itself that is strong, but rather the variety of combos it can be used with, including (highly) situational ones, like dodging Igni.
4RM3D;n7749050 said:
1. and 2. They are
3. it doesn't cost another card
4. it doesn't work with lacerate and epidemic because those would just kill the cow
5. this is part of the issue
6. this combo is pretty much instant win and you can almost play it every game because the tossers are bronze and you have 3 and only need to draw 1
Ekkimmara gets eaten by scorch, igni, villentretenmerth, schirru and what not else... You basically get to kill 2 units with 1 of these cards instead of the normal one because he eats one.
You can't use him to dodge effects of weather because the weathered unit will have 1 health and you just help your enemy by eating him...
Also anyone who knows you get to keep the last played monster will keep strength lowering cards like thunder, iorveth, manticore poison etc when enemy passes
It's good, but far from silver worthy because it doesn't matter if you play 1 or 3 of those, if you play more than 1 he's just 6 strength and nothing else.
Last edited:
Struyk;n7749150 said:
3) How else do you want to get right of another unit without playing another card?
4) Lacerate and Epidemic are meant as alternatives to the cow to kill weather-affected units, not as a supplement.
5) This is part of the issue of many cards, which is part of the game. You can't be prepared for everything or counter everything. There will always be a Rock-Paper-Scissors meta.
6) Getting one extra card doesn't make it an instant win. Regardless the combo is still strong for something triggered by a bronze.
Struyk;n7749150 said:
The Scorch Family is his weakness. Which is fine, because every tactic should have a weakness. Just like Cow Carcass can be a dead card with ST BMC's or Monster Devours.
Struyk;n7749150 said:
When the opponent uses weather (or Igni) you are already too late. You have to plan ahead and spread your units across rows to prevent major damage from effects (forgot to mention D-Bomb).
Struyk;n7749150 said:
There is a fair counter to the Monster passive by bashing the last played unit. But this can still be tricky for the opponent with all the devouring going on. Once again, the Monster passive could potentially be very strong and at the same time can be countered when struck at the right time with the right weapon.