Being "EVIL" in this game/world

[Suhiira]

As it so happens the CP2020 PnP doesn't have "good" and "evil", it does however have "reputation".

"Reputation is a measure of things your character may do so well (or badly) that he has actually become well known for them. A reputation for something is always established by a characters actions, <clip>" CP2020 pg 54-55

Now ... the question is ... will it be implemented in CP2077? And how?

 

[gamingdevil800]

For instance in Mass Effect, we often given a choice of being the good guy or being the bad guy but the end result is still saving the world. We often see this in rpgs that allow you to play as a bad guy but the bad guy still accomplishes whatever it was meant for them to do regardless of how you played the game. My suggestion is to skip that. How about instead of saving the world you make it worse for your own profit. There are not that many games or any that allow you to do that. KoTOR comes to mind but in that game you still kill off the bad guy and stop his plans. It would be an interesting new aspect in the game where you reject the the good guy path completely.

Pfff Mass Effect Andromeda was like 50 shades of blue, no bad or morally questionable choices.

 

[Corewolf]

Far to many people associate "evil" with "sociopathic behavior", they are not the same thing.

"Evil" requires intentional action specifically intended to be detrimental to others. Getting drunk and running over a baby isn't "evil", nor is killing one "just because you can". The first is irresponsible, the second "sociopathic". Now if you commit genocide for ethnic/religious cleansing reasons that's "evil". You have a reason and a goal, typical social and ethical considerations are intentionally ignored.

I see lots of people act like a-holes in RPGs and claim they're being "evil" ... nope ... they're just being a-holes.

That isn't always necessarily true though. A lot of what is seen as "evil" is a matter of perspective, raised morality, and cultural/social situations.

A good example would be super-hardcore Christians that adhere to the 10 commandments might say "killing someone is evil, because God said Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Wheras others, christain and non can say "No, killing isn't inherently evil if it is to protect society, people or ethics from harm.

Basically if you do someone a good turn, if you expand their influence, better their lives, you are good.

if you do something that does not hurt anyone, you are neutral.

If you do something that affects another negatively, you "can" be seen by those people as wrong and possibly evil, even if your actions may help more than just yourself.

(I.E. people see taxes as "evil" without realizing that they are the only thing keeping them safe by paying for the police. Taxes aren't evil. Now if the system was revised and there WERE no taxes, but someone came about and demanded "protection money" to keep you safe... and if you didn't pay, not only would they not protect you from other threats, but would actively vandalize your home, that would be "evil")

Sociopathic behavior too is often misconstrued. Sociopaths are often equated with "evil" because they are purely self interested individuals that lack the ability to empathize with others. A sociopath would be very unlikely to do something "just because they can" Hence that baby is perfectly safe. It behooves the sociopath not at all to kill said baby in most circumstances. Now if it was something that would remove an impedimement to their lives or if they could do so to extort something from someone, sure. Sociopathy is a big spectrum so there are degrees of this, but most sociopaths are not often inclined to act in ways that would make them stand out like a sore thumb.

Now Psychopathy, that is the "just because they can" individuals, and are usually inherently violent due to a number of issues.

 

[Suhiira]

That isn't always necessarily true though. A lot of what is seen as "evil" is a matter of perspective, raised morality, and cultural/social situations.
<clip>

Humanity as a whole however tends to agree that for the sake of society and personal safety certain general guidelines should be universally followed; thou shalt not kill/steal/rape/etc.
Anyone that fails to follow these universal guidelines is seen as "evil" by the vast majority of the population.
I.E. ISIS (or whatever they're calling themselves this week)

But then you add another layer based on culture and/or religion, which will of course vary wildly. To one person they're "good and moral" to another they're "evil and immoral".
In these secondary "moral" or "ethical" issues it's always a matter of perspective.

 

[Corewolf]

Humanity as a whole however tends to agree that for the sake of society and personal safety certain general guidelines should be universally followed; thou shalt not kill/steal/rape/etc. Anyone that fails to follow these universal guidelines is seen as "evil" by the vast majority of the population. I.E. ISIS (or whatever they're calling themselves this week)

But again, that depends on which side of the kill/steal you are on (not touching the rape subject, that IS evil period). Many would argue that Robin Hood wasn't "evil" but he stole. RIchard the Lionheart killed people, as did Simo Haya and Teddy Roosevelt. They are all lauded as heroes and good men by their respective cultures and the world at large.

We go back far enough we can look at Gilgamesh, who was a hugely selfish asshole till he reformed, and despite killing people, offending several gods, hoarding wealth, and generally being a prick for a long time, is not seen as "evil" because in the end he learned humility.

It's worth noting though that these people "won" in the end. (Except Gilgamesh really). Hence they are not seen as "evil" by historical views. Now picture if Prince John or the Sherriff of Nottingham had won or stayed in power. Modern statements would say that Robin Hood was a vandal that stole money from honest merchants and government officials to give to people who were themselves breaking the law by not paying their taxes.

In modern parlance, imagine if I were to hack out a ton of cash from financial institutions belonging to the american 1% (Trump and others) and then just spread that money around to those who were in poverty. Would I be good or evil? Some might say good, but I am breaking the law and stealing, which is evil in others eyes. If the government is never deposed as corrupt, I'll probably fall into obscurity as an evil individual who stole.


As for ISIS... I do believe they are evil, but I guarantee that they themselves do not think they are evil.

ISIS in their own eyes are not evil, the people killing them on the other side of the fighting are evil, and since they are bigger and better in a fight, ISIS thinks its okay to change the rules and attack civilians. Killing, Evil (Especially so from the typical first world country, rules of engagement point of view. )

By their logic however, the countries interfering in the affairs of their country are evil for attempting to "force" their views/morality/ideas of human rights on others, often through using proxy parties that they sell weapons to in order to fight wars. Killing, Evil

(Note: I do not endorse ISIS in any way, they are just a convenient and modern example).

Same issue with anyone's actions. If they can justify it, they aren't going to understand how they are "evil"

 

[Suhiira]

Of course, almost no one would think of themselves as "evil" no matter what they'd done, I did mention "humanity as a whole".
Any situation involving warfare or cultural/religious/racial differences is going to be viewed as "good" by one faction and "evil" by it's opposition.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

EEEEEEEVIIIIILLLLL!

You have to read that in Mermaid Man's voice

 

[Gaidheal]

"Evil" doesn't even really exist in "the real world", much less in games. Morality is always subjective, and when people start talking about "evil" they are pretty much always pushing their version of morality as if it is "the one true way", in other words, they are usually religious fanatics.

It's not even useful to classify people or acts as "evil" (except for thos fanatics, who want to make sure their fellow fanatics know who to target), especially as the overlap between "evil" and "illegal" is nowhere near 1:1.

Philosophy aside, from a game perspective, the alternatives need to be meaningful, pitting your selfish convenience against the needs or desires of others. A good example is "Do you torture the person you have in your power, in the hopes of getting answers you need?" On the one hand, it would be very convenient to get the information quickly (setting aside the question of how useful torture actually is - not very, in practice), on the other hand, most people would consider torture to be intrinsically wrong and the person being tortured is certainly going to suffer. Your choice is whether to put your desire and convenience over the welfare and desire of another; how you rationalize that choice is really up to you, and actually immaterial to the act.

Choices like that, genuinely meaningful, tough choices with tangible benefits to the self-serving choice, versus a more general, nebulous "right" choice, make for good story and gameplay. If you want gritty, and dark, that's how it is done.

 

[walkingdarkly]

"Evil" doesn't really exist in..no, wait. That's not true. There are really fucked-up people in CPunk. So, yes, evil exists.

The things you described are kind of a range. "Do anything" could be some real, kid-murdering, torturing evil shit. The coke off boobs sounds like a fetish? Ordering hits on rivals is just good business in 2020.

So I hope we'll be able to do a wide range of not-good things, but real evil will be on the table only for the enemy. Who shall receive my just vengeance. For money. Of course.

Truely, for example the Cyberpsycho isn't evil, it's just your fault for being so flimsy and weak that he can just reach out and poke you and you would collapse.

But of course there is still the Booster Gangs, just don't be near them....at anytime of day.

 

[Sardukhar]

Truely, for example the Cyberpsycho isn't evil, it's just your fault for being so flimsy and weak that he can just reach out and poke you and you would collapse.

BECAUSE THEY ARE MADE OF FLIMSY FLESH BITS AND BONE STICKS AND THEY DESERVE TO GO SPLUT!

Err..excellent point.

 

[eraser7278]

"Every traveller is necessarily the hero of his own story..." - John Galt

only a truly damaged mind undertakes actions it considers Evil because they actively WANT to be Evil. I think the better instances of Evil lie in characters doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons... or doing the wrong thing, but for the right reasons.

people have done some horrific things throughout history because they deluded themselves into thinking the ends justified the means. think of the Spanish inquisitor employing an anal pear on someone, did he think of himself as EVIL? heck no, he was doing gods work and helping convince this sinner to confess their sins unto god.

chuckle-fuck evil is boring, TRUE BELIEVER evil... that's where you start getting into some meaty moral quandaries... and crimes against humanity

 

[Sardukhar]

chuckle-fuck evil is boring, TRUE BELIEVER evil... that's where you start getting into some meaty moral quandaries... and crimes against humanity

Although the rendition of chuckle-fuck evil can make the two-dimensional kind of interesting, I think. I don't think the Joker thinks he's the good guy, he's pretty deliberately evil, still interesting.

Of course, he's a damaged mind, as you say. Hrm.

The criminals and outlaws I know, absolutely don't think they are good guys or girls. They kind of glory in being bad ( right up until it goes south). That said, they usually have some justification for it, like they were hurt as kids or fuck you govt or you can't tell me what to do.

Mind you, Cyberpunk-wise, does the Corporate who sells a town's drinking water supply even think of good and evil anymore? Or just expedience and power.

If we, as players, kill paid security in order to get access to the Corp database showing that they knowingly infected 812 people in Philly's Combat Zone with Accelerated Ebola so that we can then sell that information to NN54..are we..doing good? Or evil? The corp is infecting children with ebola on purpose to increase the bottom line - they'd never argue that's benign, sooo...but they should be stopped, or, you know, dead children...sooo...but then we made 2000 eb doing it so we profited, too, soo...

Yeah, maybe the Joker has it easier.

 

[Suhiira]

Easy isn't nearly as fun and interesting tho.

 

[RLKing1969]

My take? No such animal. Now, if someone is being a total asshat and continuing to grate against social norms (Like killing people and eating their entrails or doing nasty things to kids and animals.) eventually SOMEONE will get fed up with it and put the jerkoff out of their misery.
'Nuff said.

 

[eraser7278]

My take? No such animal. Now, if someone is being a total asshat and continuing to grate against social norms (Like killing people and eating their entrails or doing nasty things to kids and animals.) eventually SOMEONE will get fed up with it and put the jerkoff out of their misery.
'Nuff said.

or a plucky producer will build a reality TV empire around them

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Evil, in my mind, is just bad, but worse.
Stealing candy from a baby is bad. Eating the baby is evil.
And so on.
It's all relative. 100 year ago martial rape wasn't even a thing, now, you can go to jail.
Human beings are very flexible in what that can conceptualize is good or bad, and to what degreel.

As for being evil in game, there has to be some cause and effect for it to make sense. It doesn't make sense to be evil if it's detrimental to yourself.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Do you think its a possibility? is it something you want? I was thinking we get to pick classes/roles (hopefully) and corporate is one of them. And being corporate by definition you are evil. Do anything to get a raise. Buy prostitutes and do coke off their boobs and so on. Order hits on competitions. What do you guys think?

I want this to be a gameplay mechanic and be advertised as a selling point on the back of the box. And for the GOTY version to have some game journalism rando mentioning it over his 10/10 score in the front cover. And for the box to have a PG-13 stamped on top of it regardless.

 

[mcflurry928]

Ethics is perspective. Everyone has different opinions. Everything that happens in night city is just your typical average day. Some might see it as evil, some might see it as a necessity. The only thing that matters is your survival. Nobody in the city can judge you if you did what you had to do even if it's questionable. As long as it doesn't affect the corporation's interests, you are not held in court and dealt swiftly with extreme prejudice. There's only one entity you do not ever fuck with and that's the corporate zone. If the corporate zone wants something, you comply. Don't take it personally, it's just business.