Most expensive perks (to date) and current updated list of Attributes (5) /Skill trees (12) and some new perks information

[Restlessdingo32]

i wouldn't be so sure. remember, this is all based on partial info, so we can't know for sure. i'm just glad i understand what i'm able to understand...until we get more info later on. so, i'm still pretty confident that people here are gonna be creative enough to find the emergent gameplay in the ~230 perks that'll be available to us. i kno i'll figure out some way to circumvent combat. everyone figures it out in almost every game where it's possible. it'll be Cool-Stealth, Body-Athletics, Intelligence and Technical-Crafting for me on my first playthrough. after that, it's a free-for-all

It is too early to judge. But.... When you look at the progression system it appears the options primarily consist of different ways to kill things. Even crafting may end up translating heavily to different ways to kill things by amplifying your ability to kill things. Quantity doesn't go nearly as far when everything is funneled toward different versions of the same thing. Even though the total number of abilities available is impressive it may not mean as much in practice.

Also, TW3 suffered greatly from a lack of parity within the progression system. Certain abilities were overpowered, others strong, some were hot garbage, some didn't really... work right, you get the idea. When all those abilities get funneled toward one goal this is bound to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the choices in the progression system just end up there, taking space.

Sometimes I think modern game developers are completely out of touch with what many players look for in RPG progression....

 

[satyrsangre]

@Restlessdingo32 You're entirely correct. it's a feature and a bug of what devs (but probably moreso shareholders) assume counts as a game, and what they think counts as a gameplay mechanic. that's an industry culture thing more than something at the feet of people who work on games. i'm sure the devs had genuine ideas they wanted to implement that had very little to do with killing methods. but the world design, the physics engine, and their boss likely had...a differing opinion, so to speak.

...it is its own type of fun to play an rpg with the most 'useless' abilities and weapons though. not a whole 50+ hour campaign probably, but you could do it. i do want there to be ways to entirely circumvent combat though. 50+ hours of extremely tense and delicate negotiations; letting me live my Spike Spiegel fantasies.

(you can get through a substantial amount of TW3 combat with a blackjack or a wooden sword is all i'm saying lol)

 

[Bloodartist]

if you have a Reflex of 8, you only have 8 perk points to spread across all three Reflex skills (Handguns, Rifles, Blades). We know that using handguns increases that skill, but how does that gel with the attribute cap? That's a genuine contention for me right now. i'm sure the game will explain it. considering Reflex has ~60 perks in it...how this will work seems weird to me, but i'm curious and excited.

That is not how it has been explained.

As far as I can see:
Your attribute (reflex 8) determines the skill cap, not the amount of perks you can have.

If you use skills related to reflex, you get skill xp. Skill xp proceeds your skill and once it reaches certain thresholds, you use it to buy perks. But no matter how much you use a reflex-related skill, it cannot proceed past the skill cap set by the attribute.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

...

Sometimes I think modern game developers are completely out of touch with what many players look for in RPG progression....

This is so painfully true.

And I suppose the very reason why a good chunk of the perks look so unappealing is precisely because there are so many of them and they all count towards that one thing...

I mean, what is the player supposed to be happy about from getting a 5-10% boost for 5-10 seconds after he has done a certain feat? Or what is the 5% falldamage reduction supposed to be about? Or immunity to ones own grenades?

It seems to me, that - because the systems so heavily favor combat - if the player is going for a pacifist route or playing on the easiest difficulty (or even a stroymode, if such is there) where combat is either nonexistent or babyproof-easy, because he doesn't want to have hard time with the firstperson shooter part of the game, he can neglect over half the character systems and as such he misses half the contents of the game.

I was kinda on the impression that since this is a story driven game with a "make your own character" and because it has non-combat focus at least partly, the systems would've been designed at least as much with the storytelling element and interactivity in mind, letting the player carve his own path through it and expand his experience and personal story through nuances the systems - sometimes even surprisingly - allow (and of course disallow in places).

Now the systems just seem it's mostly about buffing the player ever so slightly to be a more effective butcher, and to better stay alive during the butchering.

It - the systems - lacks alternatives to bloodletting. Something social skills would've offered, something higher levels of interactivity (with environs and NPC's) through various skills/perks/chrome would've offered.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

In the end it just makes % perks as Skills/Stats system ripoff.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

...it is its own type of fun to play an rpg with the most 'useless' abilities and weapons though. not a whole 50+ hour campaign probably, but you could do it. i do want there to be ways to entirely circumvent combat though. 50+ hours of extremely tense and delicate negotiations; letting me live my Spike Spiegel fantasies.

Hmm, what do you mean by useless abilities? There are a lot of potential options to consider for character progression outside of destroying things. Options which can remain useful in some capacity.

As pointed out above, a fully fleshed out selection of dialog related abilities are an example. Yes, throwing those in does require more work. It also may mean the character hits gates in dialog. I've never viewed this as a problem because the best way to get a lot of depth with a character is to highlight both their strengths and weaknesses. The player being barred from taking certain paths because the character lacks the ability... makes sense. In dialog as well as gameplay.

For whatever reason CDPR is apparently highly opposed to this concept for dialog. They want the path to unfold as the choices are selected. With almost every available path always being available. Independent of the character. In general anyway. From a freedom standpoint this is good. Unfortunately, I think it costs character depth in the character progression in the process.

In The Witcher I think this approach was fine. Those games were quite clearly highly focused on the narrative. They used a highly set player character. The character had depth because it was already written into him (insofar as Geralt had depth anyway.... and I do think he did). The progression abilities were heavily tailored toward combat because, well, he was a Witcher.

CP2077 is not The Witcher. The character is supposed to be more freeform. The player "builds" the character. I don't think this approach fits with this concept. That is, a progression system highly slanted toward combat prowess and very little else doesn't function well here. In fact, it's the poster child for how I'd think you wouldn't do it.

My fear is the game is going to feel like The Witcher 4 in the CP game setting with a different narrative and a more evolved version of the character progression and combat systems in TW3. My "options" consist of different things geared toward destroying everything in my path. In which case, any character I can conceivably make has a persona geared around destroying everything in their path. Unless I opt out of combat. In that case most of the progression options mean... nothing I guess?

If this holds true it really doesn't sound like the player has a ton of choices for building the character. Slap as many stats, skills and perks in there as you want. If they're all different versions of the same task then there isn't much room to really define a character (not to mention absolute butchery of the stat, skill, perk paradigm).

 

[shadowczj]

Some new perk information provided from Arekkz gaming

Agile Stats (Blade tree)

- Unfair Advantage - deal 10% more damage to enemies with higher Max HP.

- Ninja - Unlock the Block Bullet ability to deflect bullets and perform dash attacks (seem certain Perks will unlock certain skills for V)



Cool Stats (Stealth tree)

-Embrace the Shadows - 25% HP Regen when in Stealth/Sneaking

-Crouching Tiger - Movement Speed Increase by 30% when in Stealth/Sneaking

- Attraction and Replsion - Unlock ability to push grabbed enemies. (can probably allow you to throw enemies off cliffs to kill them)

- Dagger Dealer - Unlock ability to use Throwing Knives

- Hidden Dragon - Unlock ability to perform Aerial Takedowns.

-Ninjutsu - All Sneak attacks with melee weapons will deal 100% more damage and 100% Crit hit.

-Stunning Blow - Fast melee attacks will stagger enemies.

-Hasty Retreat - Gain 50% movement speed when spotted by Enemies.

Ninjutsu seems much more powerful than Toxicology which is the most expensive perk of Stealth.
I think CDPR needs to rebalance the perks and skills.
By the way, there is a perk only reduces falling damage by 5% which is really weak.
Why do I need 5% reduction for fall damage??
I hope all the perks can be useful.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

For whatever reason CDPR is apparently highly opposed to this concept for dialog.

Yeah, and it's not just dialog either. CP2020 has all kinds of "supportive role" skills for interactivity with your surroundings, like library search, awareness/notice, play instrument, geology, pickpocketing, forgery.... and so on on top of the slew of social skills, all of which could've been utilised in a certain manner as sort of "auxiliary" skills/abilities on top of (or rather "under") the 12 "main" skills that you "require" to pass the game.

I'm frankly a bit baffled that this isn't the case and what's there is...well, what it is.

 

[Poison19]

library search, awareness/notice, play instrument, geology, pickpocketing, forgery

Forgery is from forge? Or fake?

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

My fear is the game is going to feel like The Witcher 4 in the CP game setting with a different narrative and a more evolved version of the character progression and combat systems in TW3.

THIS.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Forgery is from forge? Or fake?

Fake. Forging an ID -> making counterfeit ID.

 

[Poison19]

Fake. Forging an ID -> making counterfeit ID.

Thanks.
Well something you mentioned seems to be in game not in perks, but in stats, awareness/notice for example somehow can be in COOL tree or even depend on it. Others, due to semi-predefined story look like useless and unappropriated. Why do you need play instrument perks if you can't be rockerboy. Also, we saw not even perks, but a description is made about the fact that they were seen. We don't actually know if some social or just noncombat perks in the game. We saw like 15 perks out of nearly 300.

My fear is the game is going to feel like The Witcher 4 in the CP game setting with a different narrative and a more evolved version of the character progression and combat systems in TW3.

Why not? It logical to gamedev take their best mechanics and make them better. And if you stick to this "evolutionary" concept, then cyberpunk should be very different from the Witcher, as the Witcher 2 is different from the Witcher 3.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Why not? It logical to gamedev take their best mechanics and make them better. And if you stick to this "evolutionary" concept, then cyberpunk should be very different from the Witcher, as the Witcher 2 is different from the Witcher 3.

Short answer, I don't think the model used in the Witcher will work with what CP2077 has been advertised to be.

There is a difference between innovating and iterating on an existing concept. My interpretation of the progression system we have seen so far is slanted toward the latter, not the former. Likewise, there is a difference between shoving the square peg in the round hole vs making the peg... round. My fear is we will get a square peg. In spite of the hole going from square to round.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Why do you need play instrument perks if you can't be rockerboy.

Perhaps you should be able to to some degree, yes?

The list I wrote is just a bunch of examples I threw there from on top of my hat. I could've also made a thought out list with examples on how they might work, but that's not the point here. Anyway, if you give any of them a bit of creative thinking, each can well work as supportive elements to the roleplaying aspect of the game and defining your character. And none'd need to be earth shatteringly powerful to accomplish exactly that.

The best of RPG's have a lot of little nuances like that to offer the player in terms of character definition; not just dialog choices or story branches or mission design. While CP2077 seems to have that latter list of things done, so far seems to lack the former aspect almost completely.

 

[Poison19]

Perhaps you should be able to to some degree, yes?

The list I wrote is just a bunch of examples I threw there from on top of my hat. I could've also made a thought out list with examples on how they might work, but that's not the point here. Anyway, if you give any of them a bit of creative thinking, each can well work as supportive elements to the roleplaying aspect of the game and defining your character. And none'd need to be earth shatteringly powerful to accomplish exactly that.

The best of RPG's have a lot of little nuances like that to offer the player in terms of character definition; not just dialog choices or story branches or mission design. While CP2077 seems to have that latter list of things done, so far seems to lack the former aspect almost completely.

Yes i agree. But i still think that game doesn't need systems that control some minor things which can't influence the main gameplay. Making player able to play guitar (example) is cool detail, but making whole system, where you need to put points into stat or perks and these stats/perk affects actual sound in action game, where sound doesn't change anyting is kinda too much.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Yes i agree. But i still think that game doesn't need systems that control some minor things which can't influence the main gameplay. Making player able to play guitar (example) is cool detail, but making whole system, where you need to put points into stat or perks and these stats/perk affects actual sound in action game, where sound doesn't change anyting is kinda too much.

Same could be done with everything: you don't need stats/perks to shoot things.
Just: Priorities...

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

But i still think that game doesn't need systems that control some minor things which can't influence the main gameplay.

Ah, but why couldn't they? I'm of course not asking things to be there "just because".

My thinking of the RPG industry as a whole is that it has been devolving for the past 20 or so years precisely because it has been abandoning the smaller details and with that, all the creativity and innovation they would've necessarily involved (if intended to be done right). The gameplay experiences, instead of evolving and expanding with new technologies and lessons learnt from the past, have been stripped down little by little and compressed into smaller and simpler, but superficially much more grandiose and extravagant packages. The focus therein is skewed to say the least.

 

[Nicademusx]

Fair criticism but you have to keep in mind that a tabletop game has the luxury of having a GM that can alter situations on the fly to let you make use of those skills Not to mention that a lot of scenarios even in the tabletop tended to be more combat-centric.

I thought for sure Mr. Musk built a cybernetic implant to download Mr. Pondsmith's memories into an AI interface with the intent to make a digital GM specifically for cyberpunk 2077. Just to ensure all those insane player variables can be accommodated to its utmost potential.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Yes i agree. But i still think that game doesn't need systems that control some minor things which can't influence the main gameplay. Making player able to play guitar (example) is cool detail, but making whole system, where you need to put points into stat or perks and these stats/perk affects actual sound in action game, where sound doesn't change anyting is kinda too much.

Letting the player improve at playing instruments is only useless from a gameplay standpoint if it's made to be useless from a gameplay standpoint. You could easily design around these abilities so they're not useless for gameplay. A way to acquire in-game currency. Gain new contacts in the game world. I dunno.

As I've said before, this is why I prefer a healthy number of dialog related abilities. It's another way to flesh out a character. Fleshing out a character in a multitude of different ways is at the core of an RPG, IMO. At least one providing a player generated character. The experience isn't the same without it. Your ability to do this is extremely limited if all your options are combat related.

Declaring those added abilities useless because they don't involve combat doesn't work for me. They're only useless if there is nothing in the game able to benefit or harm the player for choosing or not choosing them. If this is true I'd instantly label the gameplay quite shallow.

Limited resources doesn't fly either. Just look at the effort put into character appearance customization. You can customize your pube colors, great. Then when it comes to character abilities it's, "Okay, do you want to use swords or guns? Those are your options.". This is obviously excessive hyperbole. It's for a reason though....

 

[Poison19]

Ah, but why couldn't they? I'm of course not asking things to be there "just because".

My thinking of the RPG industry as a whole is that it has been devolving for the past 20 or so years precisely because it has been abandoning the smaller details and with that, all the creativity and innovation they would've necessarily involved (if intended to be done right). The gameplay experiences, instead of evolving and expanding with new technologies and lessons learnt from the past, have been stripped down little by little and compressed into smaller and simpler, but superficially much more grandiose and extravagant packages. The focus therein is skewed to say the least.

I said systems not things. Another example. Game where music doesn't affect anything. And we have abitily to play music.

• We can play on guitar by activating the instrument and choose what composition to play.
• We can play giutar, but we need to put some points into *STAT NAME* to activate the instrument and get some perks/abilities to have chances of playing without mistakes. Music is determined by formula which includes all stats, perks, weather and moisture of character's hands.

Feel the difference? Things, not systems. Little things can make whole game. So if we speaking of CP2077, i'm sure devs make some purpose for non combat things and mechanics, just not in the character progression or stats.

Post automatically merged: Jul 16, 2020

Letting the player improve at playing instruments is only useless from a gameplay standpoint if it's made to be useless from a gameplay standpoint. You could easily design around these abilities so they're not useless for gameplay. A way to acquire in-game currency. Gain new contacts in the game world. I dunno.

As I've said before, this is why I prefer a healthy number of dialog related abilities. It's another way to flesh out a character. Fleshing out a character in a multitude of different ways is at the core of an RPG, IMO. At least one providing a player generated character. The experience isn't the same without it. Your ability to do this is extremely limited if all your options are combat related.

Declaring those added abilities useless because they don't involve combat doesn't work for me. They're only useless if there is nothing in the game able to benefit or harm the player for choosing or not choosing them. If this is true I'd instantly label the gameplay quite shallow.

Limited resources doesn't fly either. Just look at the effort put into character appearance customization. You can customize your pube colors, great. Then when it comes to character abilities it's, "Okay, do you want to use swords or guns? Those are your options.". This is obviously excessive hyperbole. It's for a reason though....

Thats why i started post with "I agree" . We all love then game contains *EVERYTHING*, but in reality that *EVERYTHING* can kill balance of game and make tons of useless or no fun mechanics. I think good game should have balance between number of opportunities and their usefulness and quality.