Concealment Ratings

[Weaselwolf]

Concealment Ratings

Concealment ratings seem off more often than not with a lot of cyberpunk guns (particularly bullpup rifles).
I've come up with my own semi-homebrew guidelines on what can be stashed where depending on the weapon's length and a little bit on body type. Generally anything that's on the margin of a concealment rating could be concealed by someone with a BT of 8 or better. Obviously most guns in cyberpunk don't mention their length, but this should be a useful guideline for people wanting to make their own guns or convert existing ones. I do suggest revising most Bullpup or folding-stock Assault Rifles to be L-Conc.


POCKET: Overall length 6.5" or less (And generally with a Width of 1.5" or less). Pocket guns can also be carried easily in Ankle holsters. Width is really important for true pocket carrying, but less important for ankle or other concealed holsters. Reff's choice, but you could allow an Ankle rig to count as bod 8 for concealment purposes on small guns.
*BOD 8 can probably stash a gun up to 7.5" long in a pocket. Pockets aren't very forgiving. But that does cover some fairly small full-frame autos and mid-length revolvers.

JACKET: Overall length 16" or less. Jackets hide a lot of sins, they can also hide a giant super-magnum revolver with a big long barrel according to the books. (Super Chief and Arno are both J, so I checked the length of the S&W 500 for comparison.)
*BOD 8 can stash up to 20" of lethality into a jacket

LONG COAT: Overall length 30" or less. Sure, long coats are long, but if you;re not wearing it as a giant pencil skirt, it's going to be somewhat open around your legs to allow mobility, which means you can't just sling a full sized assault rifle under there and not have people notice the barrel hanging between your legs. 30" covers a whole lot of bullpup guns, however. Most bullpup assault rifles, and all bullpup SMGs should be under 30" Likweise, traditional rifles with folding stocks should also usually be under this length when the stock is collapsed
*BOD 8 could probably get away with 36" under their coat before they start flashing the populace.

I would strongly suggest making most assault rifles L concealability since Bullpup is supposed to be the standard format, and most non-pups should have a collapsible stock.

HUGE DUDES
For super-huge guys (Bod 12+ or most borgs) you could probably double the difference in length between normal and bod 8 carry. (So 8.5" pocket, 24" jacket, 42" long) but chances are if you're that jacked up you're getting patted down everywhere you go.

Thus ends the title segment of this thread. What follows are suggested houserules for handingling concealed carry in Cyberpunk


NEW CONCEALED CARRY RULES
The following are some suggested rules for handling concealed weapons in Cyberpunk since as it stands there are no rules for how hard it is to spot a concealed weapon. You can use the quickie summary here or scroll down for more in-depth explanations for why things ork the way they do.

SUMMARY

BASE DIFFICULTY
NA/30 for most normal peoiple to spot at a glance. Only bother rolling for Bystanders if Diff is 25 or less.

Diff 25 for anyone with 5+ points in Awareness/Notice, or Streetwise, or 3+ Ranks in Combat Sense, Authority, Streetdeal or Family.

Skill Bonuses: Cops, Fixers and Nomads add HALF their Special Ability to A/N to spot concealed weapons. EVERYONE adds HALD their Streetwise to A/N to spot concealed weapons.


CONDITIONAL MODIFIERS (All stack unless otherwise stated.)

- Tipped Off/Actively scanning: -5 Diff (already mentioned above)
- Improperly Concealed Guns: -5 Diff (Concealing a gun in one-worse type of clothing than required, cover garment worn open, etc. Multiple improper concealments stack.)
- No Holster: -5 Diff (stacks with improper concealment due to size)
- Multiple Guns: -3 Diff for each gun concealed beyond the limit of your garment (2 P or J weapons under a Jacket, 1 L and 1 J/P, or 2 J/P under a Long Coat. One P weapon in an external pocket per garment)
- Pat-Down: -5 Diff, makes the search touch-based (in addition to -5 for actively searching). CC Holsters give no bonus!
- Extra Cover: +3 Diff for each class of garment above the weapon's rating. (Does not apply to multiple guns past the garment's max). Doesn't apply to pat-down.
- Concealment Holster: +3 Diff Doesn't apply to pat-downs
- Group of people: +3 Diff (3-8 people. Does not apply if you pull someone out for screening. Obviously you cannot pat-down groups all at once)
- Lots of People/Crowd Scene: +5 Diff (8+ people. Does not apply if you pull someone out of a crowd for screening. Again, pat-down doesn't apply unless you single someone out)

Obviously, forcing someone to remove covering garments will make any uncovered weapons plainly visible. Likewise, turing out/going through one's pockets will reveal a pocket gun. Ankle holsters are usually missed in these cases (unless the screener is a professional and has them hike up their pants, and Black Widows (see holster section) are almost always left covered short of a strip search.

Improperly Concealed weapons due to size and L-Conc weapons are always found on a pat-down.

NOTE: Cybernetic Holsters & Pop-Up guns are IMPOSSIBLE to spot until they are deployed. Thermal optics or x-rays will reveal the presence of the limb but you won't be able to tell what's inside it or that it has any hollow spaces at all. High powered scanners like a Cyberscanner or a Scanman will reveal the hidden gun, but short of opening the thing up, you're just going to see a blob of metal with anything else.

DRAWING FROM CONCEALMENT
-3 to Init when drawing a Concealed weapon. Fast-Draw can negate the penalty but does not provide the normal +3 bonus.

CARRING WITHOUT A HOLSTER
In addition to -5 to the A/N Diff, carrying a P or J--conc weapon without a proper holster (in a pocket, waistband, etc) will reduce its Reliability 1 level after a week of such treatment.

Furthermore, the chance of an accidental discharges increases greatly when carrying without a holster. Whenever the character stashes, draws, or performs a vigorous activity (running, jumping, HTH combat, athletics, or damage to location). Roll your LUCK x 1.5 vs Diff 15 to see if it discharges accidentally. If UR +5 to the Diff, if VR -5 (Remember to account for the downgrade if they've been carrying this way for long)

If the weapon goes off, roll 1d10; 1-2: Weapon discharges harmlessly. 2-4: Weapon discharges and is dropped. 5-8: Wound Self (If in a pants pocket, whatever leg. Waistband, random leg, jacket pocket torso, etc), and is dropped. 9-10: Wound an ally (or self if you're alone), and weapon is dropped. Downgrade SP of cover garment by 1 afterwards.

Revised for shortness and simplicity

 

[Weaselwolf]

HOLSTERS
Holsters are vital to Concealed Carry (Except P-Conc, see below). If you are stashing a gun without a holster (or sling for L or N-conc) it is considered to be Improperly concealed (-5 to Diff to spot it). This penalty stacks with being improperly concealed based on size...so if you're trying to hide an N-conc assault rifle under your Long Coat and you didn't bother to put a sling on it, you're in trouble. Pocket Holsters are always a good idea for P-conc weapons (see above), but you can still hide one effectively without it.

Concealed Carry Holsters are ones specifically designed to aid in concealment. These include Inside Waistband holsters (where it is attached to the belt/waistband, but only the handle of the gun shows above the beltline), Ankle Rigs, and specially designed Shoulder Rigs. Concealed Carry Holsters all add +3 to the Diff to spot the concealed weapon. CC Holsters do not give bonuses against pat-downs as you're just as likely to feel the holster as the gun.

A standard CC Holster will also allow you co conceal a P or J-conc weapon under a loose-fitting (untucked) shirt instead of a Jacket, but you suffer the same penalty for drawing from concealment as if it were inside a jacket and do not get the bonus for a concealed carry holster. You can also conceal without such a garment, but at a -5 to the Diff for improperly concealed.

Shoulder rigs always require a Jacket or Long Coat to conceal at all.

Ankle Rigs require either long pants or a skirt to conceal at all. So called 'black widow' rigs ride higher and up on the inner thigh so they can be worn under shorter skirts, or skirts with long slits (usually disguised as a garter). Ankle Rigs do not give any bonus against pat-downs, but Black Widows usually do, since the gun is held on the inside of the thigh and not accessible unless the skirt is lifted or removed.

CC Holsters (Except Black Widow) provide NO BONUS against Pat-Downs.

STANDARD HOLSTERS
Pocket Holster (rubberised coating to grip the inside of the pocket): 20eb (P-conc only)
Standard Holster (outside the waistband/belt or thigh): 20eb (P or J-conc only)
Tactical Holster (as above, but contains a pocket for a spare magazine): 30eb
Shoulder Sling/Strap (L or N-conc only, or lanyards for J-conc service pistols): 5eb
Tactical Shoulder Rig (gun on one side, 2 spare magazines on the other, P or J only): 50eb
Twin-Rig (shoulder rig with second holster instead of spare mag pouches): 70eb

SPEEDHOLSTERS (All give +1 Init on Fast Draws)
Standard Speedholster (also outside the waistband/belt or thigh, P or J only): 100eb
Speedholster Shoulder Rig: 125eb for Tactical, 150eb for Twin

CONCEALMENT HOLSTERS (All give +3 Diff to Awareness checks to spot them, but NOT against Pat-Downs)
Concealment Holster (inside the waistband, P or J only): 50eb
Ankle Rig (P only): 50eb
Black Widow Holster (P only): 75eb
Concealment Shoulder Rig (P or J only): 75eb for standard, 100eb for Twin




IN-DEPTH SECTION
What follows are fleshed out explanations and expansions on the above mentioned rules, and is entirely optional.


DRAWING FROM CONCEALMENT
One big problem with concealed carry is that if you want your weapon to *stay* concealed, you generally have to keep your cover garment (jacket or long coat) closed, at least partially. Blazers stay buttoned, windbreakers stay at least half-zipped, longcoats stay belted, etc. This makes drawing from concealment a lot more complicated than simply whipping it out from a hip holster.

If a character specifically says they're reaching into their jacket, opening their coat or flashing their holster before the action starts, they can avoid these penalties. This can be done to aid intimidation and facedown checks, bit it also defeats the purpose of concealment as anyone watching the character will either see the gun, or else know/assume that the character is armed in some manner.

Drawing from concealment from a Jacket, Ankle Rig or Long Coat causes a -3 penalty to Initiative.
You can counteract this by doing a Quickdraw/Snap-Shot, effectively trading 3 WA for the 3 initiative you lost.

Quickdraw Cyberarm Holsters, Pop-up cyberguns, and Cybernetic Leg Holsters are an entirely different prospect.
These systems activate with a thought and are designed for concealment and speed. Pop-up guns and cyberleg holsters do not suffer initiative penalties for drawing from concealment...but remember, you can't be wearing anything over that limb! Doesn't do any good to have your thigh split open all Robocop style if it's still under your SP16 Gibson Battlejeans. Cybernetic Quickdraw Holsters can be covered and still work as normal (it's shooting out your sleeve like Taxi Driver after all)

 

[Weaselwolf]

DIFFICULTIES TO SPOT CONCEALED WEAPONS
People with different backgrounds and different skillsets are going to have more or less chance of spotting a concealed gun. It's about more than just Awareness/Notice ranks. Believe it or not, not everyone in Night City carries a gun, and even those that do don't necessarily know what a gun bulge looks like, or how to tell if someone's cover garment is falling wrong.

This also has the effect of speeding up the game. If everyone has an equal chance of spotting a concealed weapon then you'll never get anywhere for all the rolling the Reff must do to every time you pass a crowd. As such, I've devised these guidelines.

INNOCENT BYSTANDERS: NA Glance/Diff 25 if tipped off/looking
It's safe to say that if you're carrying a weapon under the proper degree of concealment, an average person would not spot it on a casual glance. People walking by minding their own business and not actively looking for people with guns shouldn't get an Awareness check to spot a properly concealed gun.

As a rule of thumb I wouldn't bother rolling for bystanders catching a gun on a glance unless the Diff drops below 25.

TRAINED OBSERVERS AND TROUBLEMAKERS: Diff 25 Glance, Diff 20 if tipped off/searching
Solos, Cops, Fixers and Nomads with at least 3 points in their Special Ability, or anyone with at least 5 points in Awareness or Streetwise. These people know how to spot trouble. You don't make it on the street without knowing how to spot someone carrying concealed. These people are all entitled to make an Awareness check (Diff 25) to spot concealed weapons with nothign but a casual glance. If actively searching this drops to a 20.

Reffs should allow people to add HALF their level in Authority, Streetdeal, Family, to their Awareness checks to spot guns. While not as keen-eyed as a Solo, these professions all deal with armed and dangerous people every day and know how to spot a heater. Also, EVERYONE should get to add half their Streetwise to Awareness checks to spot guns, in addition to the above. Streetwise is the skill in how to survive on the street. You do not survive long on the street without knowing who's carrying.

This is ONLY for spotting concealed weapons. You may know who's packing, but you're still no solo.

Your Average mid-level Solo (5 int, 5 CS, 5 Aware) needs a 10 or better to notice on a casual glance if someone is packing, and only needs a 5 to spot if they're actively looking. If he has, say, 5 ranks in Streetwise this drops to 7 and 3 respectively. You will never get anything past a Solo, ever.

A Cop, Fixer or Nomad of the same level and skill (including streetwise) needs a 12 to notice on a casual glance (Or 10 if the reff is nice about rounding when multiple fractions are added), or a 7 (or 5, if the reff is nice)


PAT-DOWNS
Actively patting a subject down further lowers the difficulty by 5 (in addition to being actively searching). Furthermore, as the search is now touch-based, concealed carry holsters or hiding small guns in big garments offer no bonuses. Pat-Downs from unskilled people can still miss a lot, so the base numbers for bystanders stand. If you don't know what you're doing you're not likely to find anything that isn't obvious. L-conc weapons ARE obvious and are always spotted except by the most inept pat-downs (only a fumble will miss one)

OBVIOUSLY, forcing someone to remove their concealment garment and/or turn out their pockets will render the search mostly pointless. If a weapon isn't concealed it doesn't need an awareness check to spot.


CONCEALMENT LIMITATIONS
Just because you're wearing a jacket doesn't mean you can have an unlimited amount of J-rated guns stashed in there. For J and L class garments, you can carry 2 J-Conc weapons. Long Coats can only carry one L-Conc weapon and 1 J-Conc weapon (or 2 J-Conc weapons)

Pocket guns are an exception. You can usually conceal one P-conc gun in pretty much every pocket, regardless of what the garment is already concealing under it. Generally you should limit it to one or two per garment, otherwise you risk looking like the Michelin Man. You can, of course, also carry up to two P-Conc weapons in ankle rigs (one on each leg, doy)

Each gun past your concealment limit imparts a -3 to the Awareness Difficulty to spot.


IMPROPER CONCEALMENT
Something is better than nothing. You CAN try to hide a weapon in a garment one type too small (J-rated pistol in a pocket or waistband, L-rated weapon under a jacket, an N-rated assault rifle under a Long Coat), but doing so counts as improper concealment and lowers the Awareness difficulty by -5 Points, and will ALWAYS be noticed in a Pat-Down

Reffs should use discretion as to whether an N-Conc weapon will even fit under an LC. A good rule of thumb is that most rifles, smgs and shotguns should all fit, but heavy weapons and sniper rifles will not

Furthermore, a cover garment that is NOT properly closed imparts a -5 to the Awareness Diff to spot it. This stacks with any other penalties.


EXTRA COVER
You CAN hide smaller guns in larger garments if you so desire. Each garment size 'up' from your weapon's rating imparts a +3 to the Difficulty of the Awareness check. So stashing a single J-conc gun in a Long Coat is +3 to the Awareness Diff. Hiding a P-conc gun *under* a Jacket (instead of in an outside pocket) gives a +3, or inside a Long Coat is +6 (and you can hide a pair of P class guns inside a Long Coat and still get the bonus).

Putting a P-conc gun in an outside pocket, however, confers no bonus...but remember, if your *pocket* is covered, that still counts. So if that Long Coat covers your pants pocket, you're good.

These bonuses for hiding small guns in large garments do not apply to pat-downs.


LEGALITY
I left this as an afterthought because it really is very subjective and dependent upon the Reff and the location.

LICENSING
Night City and the UCCJ require all Handguns, Long Guns and blades over 8 inches to be licensed. Serial numbers are laser-etched on the weapon, registered to your SIN, and ballistic profiles are kept on file at FBI/CIA headquarters. This costs 25eb per weapon and requires an extensive criminal and mental health background check (Check takes 4 days and results are usually good for about a month before needing another check for future registrations). Licensing requirements and fees may vary based on location and Reff's discretion.

*Generally speaking* the local chief of police can turn down a license request for any reason he deems appropriate. Appeals can be made but are usually futile without some heavy duty legal reps. Fortunately, most places get so many inquiries that it gets handled by computer and the local LEO rarely bothers looking at them personally. Just don't piss off the chief.

OPEN-CARRY
*Generally* speaking, Open-Carry (which is to say visibly holstered or slung, not in your hand, that's Brandishing) is legal in most places and *usually* does not require any extra licensing (above and beyond a gun license, if that state requires one). Night City for example, allows for open carry, provided you've got a license for your piece.

That said, you WILL draw attention, you will *probably* freak out the innocent bystanders, and you'll almost certainly attract undue attention from Cops, Gangers and Solos. Legal or not, you've announced to the other gun-toters that you are armed and dangerous. Even when it's perfectly legal, it's almost always a better idea to keep your gun hidden.

Expect every Cop to hassle you for your ID and licenses, and they WILL inspect any longarms to make sure they aren't Fully Automatic (remember, automatic weapons carry a mandatory 5-7 yer sentence)

CONCEALED CARRY
Again, generally speaking, Concealed Carry is usually legal in most places, but almost always requires an additional license (above and beyond any gun license needed for the state, if any). This license typically costs about 25eb (non-refundable), requires an extensive background check (any felonies or domestic violence charges will prevent you getting it, as will certain mental conditions), fingerprinting, and depending on how draconian and dystpoic your area, probably a DNA sample too. Usually it takes 4 days for your license to be approved, and are usually subject to the same executive fiat of gun permits when it comes to the Chief Local LEO. This is, of course up to the Reff.

Concealed Carry Licenses must be carried at all times if you're going to carry a concealed weapon, so don't forget your wallet if you arm up to go get some smokes.

Penalties for illegally carried firearms are also up to the Reff as they vary wildly between municipalities.

AGE REQUIREMENTS
Federally speaking, you MUST be 18 years or older to purchase any gun or ammunition, or knife over 8 inches in length.
Possession and purchasing are different matters, however.
Possession means having a loaded gun on or about your person.

In most places, post UCCJ, anyone above the age of 18 may possess any legal weapon, handgun or longarm.
Minors under the age of 18 may possess (but not purchase) longarms (rifles or shotguns, but not handguns), so long as they are supervised by an adult legally allowed to possess guns of their own.

TRANSPORTING
It is almost always legal to carry a gun *unloaded* and inside a case or bag if you are 18 or older, even without a Concealed Carry permit. (For the record, It usually takes 2 rounds to open a case and load the gun before it's able to be fired.)

Carrying a *loaded* weapon inside a case generally counts as carrying a concealed weapon. Likewise, loaded weapons inside a vehicle are considered to be concealed.

 

[fuzzytroll]

That is A LOT of data.

 

[Weaselwolf]

It started out as a simple guideline for concealment ratings then sort of...mutated

 

[Sardukhar]

I feel as if I'm missing a lot by not reading it, but trying to read it is like trying to climb a sheer 30 foot wall. With my eyes. And lips.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Well, you could tackle it in stages... The first post is pretty basic, just size guidelines on what constitutes what concealment categotry, and a brief bit about drawing from concealment.

The second post is about how ahrd it is to spot concealed weapons and about how much you can conceal under a garment.

Then the third is all about holsters and legality, with a bit sumarizing all the stuff from the second post.

Just take nibbles ;-)

 

[Sardukhar]

You...want us to nibble at your post?

Okay!

 

[fuzzytroll]

Maybe you should do a reduced version for people to nibble at, someting to the point, just the tip really.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Thanks for making this thread- there are so many ideas here for awesome potential game mechanics. I think concealment rating should definitely be a property in the game, and I would also like if there was some way of knowing when and how it's going to fail. For example, with troublemakers, how are you going to know before the fact that your concealment will work on them?

These details make me wish that CP77 had a really tight inventory system where you could only carry items like people do IRL, with items/holsters physically appearing on you.

I hope the Devs take these details into consideration, so again, excellent post.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Wow, awesome Flash, thanks!
I carry a concealed weapon daily so a lot of this just made sense to me. Some of it I just made up.

The thing about concealment is you never know when it'll fail. You think everything's fine, but when you bend over to help an old lady get a heavy bag of cat food, your jacket rides up and next thing you know she;s running away screaming to call the cops.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

These details make me wish that CP77 had a really tight inventory system where you could only carry items like people do IRL, with items/holsters physically appearing on you.

I hope the Devs take these details into consideration, so again, excellent post.

May be worth adding another comment here then:
http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/1449-How-many-weapons-do-you-want-to-carry


I'm not a fan of your revised Uniform Civilian Code on bearing arms. It's the dark future of 2020, surely every street urchin able to hold a gun will attempt to be packing. You can buy guns from vending machines FFS!!! (Another reason why most people would know what a 'gun-bulge' would look like, though Joe Bloggs would probably have a lower awareness skill level because they are not as used to having to pay as much attention as an edgerunner or a cop.)

In my opinion, the concealed carry restrictions would have gone out the window in the 90's, along with many of the other regulations. So would the age limit on and the requirement for a weapon to be unloaded and carried in a case/carrier. We play it that a firearms lisence allows the possesion and right to carry, (both overtly and covertly,) and weapon allowed within the law. The idea that a weapon must not be loaded if you are under 21 would probably result in a lot more dead teenagers, or more of them doing time.

Also, the OP's section on holsters does seem a long winded way of saying:

"Weapons not carried in a holster, (ie: in a pocket,) suffer a minor penalty to 'fast-draw' and can also suffer reduced reliability."
"Weapons carried in a normal holster can 'fast-draw' normally."
"Weapons carried in a concealed holster suffer a penalty to 'fast-draw', but are harder to spot."

On the whole, these houserules seem to be massively overcomplicating the game for no real benefit. I'm not saying it isn't good stuff or anything, just that I don't see it as all that necessary, as well as much of it being highly subjective.

 

[fuzzytroll]

I don't recall where gun vending machines were mentioned, not that I doubt they exist in canon (so to speak) can you point me to it? I'm curious if there are any details like scanning your SIN card (which would make sense to me) or what not.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I don't recall where gun vending machines were mentioned, not that I doubt they exist in canon (so to speak) can you point me to it? I'm curious if there are any details like scanning your SIN card (which would make sense to me) or what not.

I know I have read the reference several times in different books, but I can't remember a specific one at this time. I'll get back to you.

 

[Weaselwolf]

I'm not a fan of your revised Uniform Civilian Code on bearing arms. It's the dark future of 2020, surely every street urchin able to hold a gun will attempt to be packing. You can buy guns from vending machines FFS!!! (Another reason why most people would know what a 'gun-bulge' would look like, though Joe Bloggs would probably have a lower awareness skill level because they are not as used to having to pay as much attention as an edgerunner or a cop.)

In my opinion, the concealed carry restrictions would have gone out the window in the 90's, along with many of the other regulations. So would the age limit on and the requirement for a weapon to be unloaded and carried in a case/carrier. We play it that a firearms lisence allows the possesion and right to carry, (both overtly and covertly,) and weapon allowed within the law. The idea that a weapon must not be loaded if you are under 21 would probably result in a lot more dead teenagers, or more of them doing time.

As someone who actually knows the state of gun laws now, and has read the gun laws in cyberpunk, you may actually be surprised to know that laws in 2020 are actually more strict than current laws...probably because there's so much gun crime.

For example, the laws for self defense are much more restrictive than most 'stand your ground' laws, applying only when it is impossible to summon police in time, or to restrain the assailant by other means. (p180 CP2020, 3rd paragraph)

That's harsh, man. I live in Hippy-dippy lefty-liberal Washington State, and our Defense laws say I can shoot you for trying to steal my computer, and I'm under no obligation to retreat or restrain you.


As for Concealed Carry Laws...
According to the stuff under the WEAPONS heading in the same book, most gun laws boil down to:
1) Filling out a "carry application" allowing you to carry a concealed handgun
2) Waiting 4 days for a background check
3) Paying a 25eb fee, AND having your serial number and ballistics pattern registered with the feds (presumably this fee would be for each gun you own)

So I'll admit to overestimating the waiting period and the fee (I based them off of current laws here in WA), though since the fee includes registering your gun's info it should apply to each gun.

You should know that right now, many states (including blue-state WA) don't require you to actually register your guns. In WA you can (Optionally) send in a form to let the state know you sold or traded your gun to someone else, but this is a) optional, and b) not kept on file for long. there is essentially no gun registration in WA. Records are kept by gun sellers of who buys what gun, but that's mainly for the sake of the sellers to prove that their inventory was legally sold after checks were made.

As for registering the ballistics pattern with the FBI, that's not a thing that happens now or would feasibly ever happen as long as the NRA holds sway. Guns and bullets known to be used in crimes are recorded, but private guns are not.

So requiring that you register each and every weapon so that it is linked to your SIN, and the ballistics profile are registered with the feds is considered WAY FREAKING STRICT by most gun owners standards.

Furthermore, if a gun registered to you is used in a crime, you are liable for that crime unless you report it lost, stolen or sold.
That's crazy harsh.

Mandatory 5-7 year sentence for carrying automatic weapons (and remember, plea bargains were done away with)
That's pretty freaking harsh, and is why I never bother with much past handguns for my characters.

So, yeah...compared to gun laws now, the dark future of cyberpunk is way harsh on gun laws.

Also, the OP's section on holsters does seem a long winded way of saying:

"Weapons not carried in a holster, (ie: in a pocket,) suffer a minor penalty to 'fast-draw' and can also suffer reduced reliability."
"Weapons carried in a normal holster can 'fast-draw' normally."
"Weapons carried in a concealed holster suffer a penalty to 'fast-draw', but are harder to spot."

On the whole, these houserules seem to be massively overcomplicating the game for no real benefit. I'm not saying it isn't good stuff or anything, just that I don't see it as all that necessary, as well as much of it being highly subjective.

Fair enough, I just felt some detail was needed.
There's a massive difference between a tactical thigh holster, which allows for free and easy access to your gun but offers no concealment, and an inside the waistband holster or shoulder rig tucked under a jacket, that is going to be a lot harder to get at..

The initiative penalties for drawing from concealment aren't just for fast draws, it;s for ALL draws. Fast drawing just lets you negate it in full or in part.
It's always going to be slower to draw out of a jacket than out of a hip holster.

That said, I'll go back through and look at simplifying it

Maybe dispense with the difference between regular and CC holsters...but there IS a difference in real life.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

As someone who actually knows the state of gun laws now, and has read the gun laws in cyberpunk, you may actually be surprised to know that laws in 2020 are actually more strict than current laws...probably because there's so much gun crime.

For example, the laws for self defense are much more restrictive than most 'stand your ground' laws, applying only when it is impossible to summon police in time, or to restrain the assailant by other means. (p180 CP2020, 3rd paragraph)

That's harsh, man. I live in Hippy-dippy lefty-liberal Washington State, and our Defense laws say I can shoot you for trying to steal my computer, and I'm under no obligation to retreat or restrain you.

For the benefit of readers, here is the entire weapons passage from the 2020 rulebook, in full, word for word:

By 1997, even the most well-intentioned gun control statutes were buried under a wave of public protest as crime rates made America a siege state. Self-defence soon became an American lifestyle, and there was an explosive increase in light personal protection weapons.

By 1999, most gun control statutes involved 1) filling out a "carry application" allowing you to carry a concealed handgun; 2) waiting 4 days for an extensive background check and approval, which could be refused on the basis of a criminal record or history of mental illness; and 3) paying the $25.00 fee and having a serial number laser etched into the butt of the gun. This number is catalogued with the ballistics firing pattern of your weapon at FBI/CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C.

The Federal Weapons Statute of 1999 states that if a gun with your ID number is used in the commission of a crime, you are liable for that crime, unless you have previously reported the weapon as lost or stolen, and have had this report filed with your local police agency.

Under the provisions of the Federal Weapons Statute, it is not legal to carry submachine guns and other fully automatic weapons-possession carries a stiff 5 to 7 year mandatory prison sentence. Not that this stops anyone. While there's a certain style in using an old model sidearm like a Colt .357 or .45, the sensible cyberpunk knows that a modern pistol makes a good backup. Since the introduction of the Glock 17 automatic in the mid-1980's, most major handgun manufacturers now produce polymer resin pistols in a variety of calibres.

The most ubiquitous of these is the Federated Arms X-22 and X-9 series, a line of polymer plastic handguns. Manufactured in a variety of bright, designer colours, these so-called "Polymer One-shots" carry an easy to load 10 or 8 round clips of caseless ammunition, retail at $150 to $300, and are available in most sporting goods stores. They combine practicality, durability and style in potent little packages. The new Cyberteen™ line includes airbrushed casings with colourful shapes and artwork moulded right in-the perfect gift for the young consumer interested in personal defence.

As for Concealed Carry Laws...
According to the stuff under the WEAPONS heading in the same book, most gun laws boil down to:
1) Filling out a "carry application" allowing you to carry a concealed handgun
2) Waiting 4 days for a background check
3) Paying a 25eb fee, AND having your serial number and ballistics pattern registered with the feds (presumably this fee would be for each gun you own)

So I'll admit to overestimating the waiting period and the fee (I based them off of current laws here in WA), though since the fee includes registering your gun's info it should apply to each gun.

You based them on current laws, but those laws were done away with as they were seen as not suitable any longer. That is one of the main points you fall down on. You are basing the rules on one states laws, (and given there are 49 other states with their own laws on the matter, that's pretty short sighted.)

The 'carry application', as worded, is the only application. It allows concealed carry of a handgun. There is no mention of open carry at all. Nor any mention of long arms. In Protect and Serve, it does mention that the permit is required for handguns, semi automatic action rifles and knives up to 18" long. You require both a lisence to carry as well as an additional concealed carry permit. You also introduce severe, (imo,) age restrictions.

That's my point on the matter. (And if people are at the point of complainigng about 25eb, then they should play a different game.)

You should know that right now, many states (including blue-state WA) don't require you to actually register your guns. In WA you can (Optionally) send in a form to let the state know you sold or traded your gun to someone else, but this is a) optional, and b) not kept on file for long. there is essentially no gun registration in WA. Records are kept by gun sellers of who buys what gun, but that's mainly for the sake of the sellers to prove that their inventory was legally sold after checks were made.

As for registering the ballistics pattern with the FBI, that's not a thing that happens now or would feasibly ever happen as long as the NRA holds sway. Guns and bullets known to be used in crimes are recorded, but private guns are not.

So requiring that you register each and every weapon so that it is linked to your SIN, and the ballistics profile are registered with the feds is considered WAY FREAKING STRICT by most gun owners standards.

Furthermore, if a gun registered to you is used in a crime, you are liable for that crime unless you report it lost, stolen or sold.
That's crazy harsh.

Mandatory 5-7 year sentence for carrying automatic weapons (and remember, plea bargains were done away with)
That's pretty freaking harsh, and is why I never bother with much past handguns for my characters.

So, yeah...compared to gun laws now, the dark future of cyberpunk is way harsh on gun laws.

by 2020 it's the CIA, not the FBI. There are no FBI, NSA or ATF in the dark future, the CIA 'absorbed' them.. Oh, and no NRA either.

And your point on Cyberpunk gun legislation being more strict than real life is a matter of opinion:

Registering every firearm to your SIN -
That is just common sense to me. Your car is registered to you. Your phone is registered to you. What's the problem with registering deadly weapons that you take full resposibility for? As for the ballistics profile, again, makes perfect sense as it drasticly speeds up investigations in a world where murder is one of the most common crimes. I don't understand why this would be regarded as harsh, considering that if the owner uses the weapon within the confines of the law, then they have nothing to fear.

Liable for registered guns used in crimes -
This makes sense too, especially when you consider some of the shit that gets through lawsuits. If your dog attacks someone, you as the owner are responcible. If someone uses your weapon, and you aren't paying enough attention to notice that your weapon is missing then you deserve to do time. Obviously there could be extenuating circumstances, such as the weapon being stolen and used before you have a chance to discover the theft, in which case the charges should be dropped.

Mandatory 5-7 year sentence for Automatics -
The penalty is up to 10 years for illegal automatic weapons, so how is 5-7 more strict? Lets not forget that it isn't always enforced, hence why it doesn't really stop anyone from carrying them.

And even if you do deem it harsh, the law in 2020 is meant to be harsh.

You want to know what's harsh, you can kill a man for trying to steal your computer. Here in the UK, if you injure that man you will get done, forget killing him.

...but there IS a difference in real life.

I appreciate the level of detail you want to go into with all these posts, and I have respect for it, but there comes a point when that much detail becomes tedious and the game stops being fun. It is a game after all.

 

[Weaselwolf]

For the benefit of readers, here is the entire weapons passage from the 2020 rulebook, in full, word for word:

Which doesn't really conflict with anything I said, and I put in page references in case anyone wanted to check it. You were the one saying to be more brief

You based them on current laws, but those laws were done away with as they were seen as not suitable any longer. That is one of the main points you fall down on. You are basing the rules on one states laws, (and given there are 49 other states with their own laws on the matter, that's pretty short sighted.)

I'm still not sure where the major difference arises. The stuff I laid down in the legality section was EXTREMELY limited, and consisted mostly of 'it really depends on the reff and the location' and besides getting the waiting period and pricing wrong, nothing I said conflicts with anything established in the rules that I'm aware of.

I gave some EXAMPLES from my own state, but most of what I stated in the legality section is the law of the land for the whole US. The thing is, the US has a ton of different laws so trying to include them all would have been pointlessly extreme.

Which is why I kept sayiing "Depending on the location and the reff"
The fact you tore into a minor afterthought section with such ferver only confuses me.

The 'carry application', as worded, is the only application. It allows concealed carry of a handgun.

Which still utterly blows away your statement about concealed carry laws going away. Again, all I did was give the wrong waiting period and fee.

There is no mention of open carry at all.

Which is why I said it is USUALLY legal. and GENERALLY doesn't require any extra licensing.
Seriously, failing to see how I've 'fallen down' down on anything here.
Some states and municipalities will have different laws, and that is entirely up to the Reff. Considering most of California isn't even part of the US anymore, it's fair to say that the laws might be a little different, per ref's call.

Nor any mention of long arms.

I hardly even mentioned long arms myself, save that minors can usually carry one so long as their parents are around and it;s not in the middle of the street. The point I was making is that longarms generally suffer much less restriction than handguns because of hunting and whatnot.

For the record, as it stands right now any adult can carry a loaded rifle on them at any time if they're in an open carry state. They just generally don't because iof you walk around with an AR-15 on your back it;s going to cause a freakout, legal or not.

I never meant to imply that longarms were somehow more restricted than handguns. The point I was getting at is that they're LESS restricted. People under 21 generally can't carry handguns, but they can carry rifles. Carry laws are usually on handguns as well.

That said, even if it's legal to open carry your assault rifle, the cop is still going to ask to see your ID, your gun license, AND he's going to make sure it's not fully automatic. The moral of the story is, even if it's legal it's not smart.

In Protect and Serve, it does mention that the permit is required for handguns, semi automatic action rifles and knives up to 18" long. You require both a lisence to carry as well as an additional concealed carry permit.

See, this is another case of the laws in cyberpunk being MORE restrictive than real life.
Many states have no licensing requirement on handguns and most states don't require a license for rifles...I haven't heard of any state with a knife license.
And this is in addition to the concealed carry permit.

Harsh, man.

You also introduce severe, (imo,) age restrictions.

Well, for a start, I didn't introduce them, they're the current gun statutes, and secondly it's not all that severe. 21 is a reasonable age of majority.
It's not like this is cybergeneration we're talking about. Most edgerunners are going to be 21 or over anyway. A rare handfull will be 18, 19 or 20
Besides, when have gun laws ever stopped a cyberpunk? There's 14 year olds in Compton right now with loaded handguns. It doesn;t stop them, but if they get arrested they;ll go to jail for slightly longer (maybe).

That said, since nothing specifically says 21 in Cyberpunk then fine, the age to carry a loaded handgun is 18 instead, in most places, subject to Reff call. I don't really see how that's much different.

That's my point on the matter. (And if people are at the point of complainigng about 25eb, then they should play a different game.)

And while I appreciate the extra details I fail to see how it really changes much of anything about what I stated.
As I said in the article, the legality section was an afterthought, and that it was entirely dependant upon the Reff's call and where the game is taking place. If you're playing with a reff that says 12 year olds can have machineguns in night city then whatever, that's how the law works.
All I did was explain how they work *now* so you have a point of reference.

Also, I'm not sure what you;re on about with the 25eb fee...I never complained about it.

I just pointed out that a 25eb registration fee, per gun, is actually *stricter* than current gun laws.

You made the blanket statement that cyberpunk gun laws were virtually nonexistant and crazy loose...all I did was systematically point out all the ways in which the laws in cyberpunk are much, much more restrictive than real life.

Short of having a shorter waiting period, and hypothetically lowering the age of handgun carry to 18 instead of 21, every other aspect of gun laws in cyberpunk is MORE restrictive than in most real-world state legal systems.

And your point on Cyberpunk gun legislation being more strict than real life is a matter of opinion:

Not if you actually know anything about current gun laws. If you know what you;re talking about it's actually what we call a fact.

Seriously, short of California or New York you;d be hard pressed to find a state in the US with gun laws harsher than those in cyberpunk.

Take it from someone who owns and carries guns. Researching gun laws is something I've been doing for a while and take very seriously. When I go down to oregon I take my pistol out of its pocket holster and move it to a belt holster because oregon has different C laws and doesn't reciprocate my washington state carry license, so I have to open carry instead, for example. I know this because I have to.

Registering every firearm to your SIN -
That is just common sense to me. Your car is registered to you. Your phone is registered to you. What's the problem with registering deadly weapons that you take full resposibility for? As for the ballistics profile, again, makes perfect sense as it drasticly speeds up investigations in a world where murder is one of the most common crimes. I don't understand why this would be regarded as harsh, considering that if the owner uses the weapon within the confines of the law, then they have nothing to fear.

I never said it was unreasonable or illogical.
I just pointed out that it's WAY more strict than current gun laws in many states, and that the government keeping ballistics patterns on file is something that never happens in reality. In part because it would never get passed, and in part because it's wildly impractical to enforce.

While we're at it, we can apply this same statement to all your other points.

I never said it was unreasonable, I never said it didn't make sense.

All I did was rightly point out that these laws are, in point of, absolute, verifiable, not a goddamned opinion, FACT, more strict than gun laws in the real world.

If you agree with them that's fine, it's a matter of politics really. Frankly, I agree with some of the laws in cyberpunk.

That doesn't, however, make them in any way LESS RESTRICTIVE than current laws.
These laws are all objectively MORE RESTRICTIVE than current laws. That is the point I was getting at, countering your uninformed assertion that laws in cyberpunk were somehow much looser than real life.

Also, for the record, in many states in the US you can in fact own fully automatic weapons as a private citizen, you just have to pay for a federal license and a tax stamp for each machinegun you feel like owning.

If you don't have the right licensing, your penalty can be anywhere from a fine, to *up to* 10 years, but no mandatory minimum exists.

You said an untrue thing, I corrected you, that's all.

You want to know what's harsh, you can kill a man for trying to steal your computer. Here in the UK, if you injure that man you will get done, forget killing him.

God Bless America. I'd rather not fetch a pillow and make some sandwiches for the man invading my home.
Frankly, I'm a registered Democrat and if the guy survives me shooting him I'll happily pay more in taxes so he can get into a nice vocational rehab program and learn that stealing stuff is wrong. I'd even love for us to have a cool public healthcare system in place so he can get his face mended for free. Hell, maybe if we put more tax money into schools we wouldn't have to shoot people in the face for stealing our shit. But in the meantime, don't break into my house and you won't get shot. Seems utterly reasonable to me.
But that's politics and not game mechanics, so let's leave it alone.

I appreciate the level of detail you want to go into with all these posts, and I have respect for it, but there comes a point when that much detail becomes tedious and the game stops being fun. It is a game after all.

Fair enough. I'll go through and revise it later. Any suggestions?

 

[Weaselwolf]

The the record, here's the section from the original post

LEGALITY
I left this as an afterthought because it really is very subjective and dependent upon the Reff and the location.

This right here at the very start makes me wonder why we're even in such a scuffle over it. These are loose guidelines that are entrely up to the location and the guy running the game. I was just giving a few examples so people had a basis in reality for designing their local gun laws.

Open-Carry
*Generally* speaking, Open-Carry (which is to say visibly holstered or slung, not in your hand, that's Brandishing) is legal in most places and *usually* does not require any extra licensing (above and beyond a gun license, if that state even requires one).

Chris, you made a big deal about this but as you can see, what I said doesn't differ with your reading of the laws from the books. Open carry is legal and doesn't require an extra permit. All I did was point out that some places might have different laws. Considering not evbery place that was once in the US is echnically in the Us anymore, having different laws is a distinct possibility.

That said, you WILL draw attention, you will *probably* freak out the innocent bystanders (who often have no idea that carrying a gun is legal), and you'll almost certainly attract undue attention from Cops, bangers and Solos. Legal or not, you;ve announced to the other gun-toters that you are armed and dangerous. Even when it's perfectly legal, it's almost always a better idea to keep your gun hidden.

Nothing wrong here. Different neighborhoods will have different reactions, but generally speaking it;s always better to conceal than open carry, even if it's legal.

Concealed Carry
Again, generally speaking, Concealed Carry is usually legal in most places, but almost always requires an additional license (above and beyond any gun license needed for the state, if any). This license typically costs about 50eb (non-refundable), requires an extensive background check (any felonies or domestic violence charges will prevent you getting it), fingerprinting, and depending on how draconian and dystpoic your area, probably a DNA sample too. Usually it takes 1d6 weeks for your license to arrive in the mail. Some states are 'shall issue' meaning if you pass the background check they MUST issue you the license, others are 'May issue' states, meaning the chief Law Enforcement Officer of the area may decide to deny your application for any reason he desires. This is, of course up to the Reff. Concealed Carry Licenses must be carried at all times if you're going to carry a concealed weapon, so don't forget your wallet if you arm up to go get some smokes.

Again, I'll admit that I overestimated the wait time and price, but other than that there's nothing really wrong here either. I mentioned some of the things they generally look for. The book is pretty vague on these points. And again, I said it;s all hinging on where it is and the opinion of the reff. Just giving an example more than a hard and fast rule.

Penalties for illegally carried firearms are also up to the Reff as they vary wildly between municipalities.

Most places require you to be 21 years of age to carry a loaded handgun concealed or otherwise outside of your home, personal property or place of work. Longarms can usually be carried while hunting or target shooting as long as parents are present or the person is 18 or older.

I'll admit to being less than clear here. I meant to say 'longarms carried by minors'
You can give your 12 year old a rifle and he can go out and shoot it all day long, so long as you're supervising him and it isn't out in the middle of the street or something.

As for the bit about handguns for people 18-20, that's the law in most states. You cannot purchase a handgun if you are under 21, in any state. You cannot purchase a longarm or ammo if you are under 18.

There is no federal age limit on *possessing* a longarm. Your dad has to buy it, but any kid in the US 9(subject to local restrictions) can own a rifle or shotgun. But owning it and walking down the street with it are different things.

Federally it is also illegal for anyone under 18 to *possess* a handgun. But almost every state requires you to be 21 before you can carry it around loaded. 11 states won't even let you posses one, and the ones that allow possession still generally don;t let you carry it loaded outside of your home.

The rules for cyberpunk don;t say one way or the other what the age is to possess a handgun. going with current statutes is reasonable, but then again, going with the federal minimum of 18 is also reasonable.

Which is, again, why it depends on location and reff call.

It is almost always legal to carry a gun unloaded inside a case or bag, even for people aged 18-20. Reason being, you'll need to be able to transport a firearm from the place you bought it to the gun range or your home, etc. It usually takes 2 rounds to open a case and load the gun before it;s able to be fired. Carrying a loaded weapon inside a case generally counts as carrying a concealed weapon. Likewise, loaded weapons inside a vehicle are considered to be concealed.

Nothing in cyberpunk disagrees with this. Transporting an unloaded handgun in a case is almost always legal, even for 18 year olds. Having it loaded and in a case or vehicle is concealing it and falls under concealed carrying laws.

I really don't see what's got you so worked up, Chris.

 

[fuzzytroll]

Why the hell would the NRA be gone? The biggest, most powerful corporations in Cyberpunk manufacture weapons. If anything the NRA would be a major political party at that point, representing the largest financial chunk of lobbying shy of the super banks that provide their CEO's a safe secure vault to swim naked in the money they make at the cost of young lives on the gritty streets of America Inc.
The idea of the NRA being out of the picture only makes sense if they were replaced by a coalition completely built by the gun industry, which would basically be the same thing but with more access to lobbying money and political capital since the legal battles behind things like gun laws won't ever actually end. So long as there is one whingy liberal pillock for Martin Bashir to interview on future MSNBC to cry about the sad tragedies generated by gun violence there will be an anti-gun lobby.

 

[Sardukhar]

*blink*

Okay, political rant about gun rights aside, gun rights in CP2020 are pretty liberal - cops don't care and most everyone in Night City carries. I'd have to look up what the UCJC says in the book, but it's irrelevant - cops are only likely to prosecute if you -aren't - carrying when you should be.

No lawyer is likely to take on a case in 2020 of a suspect who was carrying a firearm concealed without the proper permits. Lawyers are pretty touch and go in 2020, post Lawyer Riot. UCJC is..efficient.

NRA is a non-entity in Cyberpunk 2020 as I recall. Corps run things now, not politicians. Your Constitutional Rights are regularly violated by Arasaka. Oops!

Your 2020 may vary, but hey, go nuts with that. It's your dark (?) future. You wanna pretend Civil Liberties and Gun Rights and Due Process exist in a corporate-run world, have fun with that.