Lets all make a CP2020 Character.

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I had a player who wanted to use his ATTR as a Dump stat, so I let him, he went in knowing that an ATTR of 2 meant he was severely deformed... He kind of ignored it, until I drew the image and illustrated what his "cleft pallated, hunchbacked, assymetrical arm having CHUD actually looked like...

Ahh..that'd be stats of 0 to 1. Like Empathy, where 0 is non-functional. What you're talking about is reaaaally non functional.

Attr of 2 means with Personal Grooming 3 you look as good as ATTR 5 people who didn't bother with the PG skill. You are at the bottom end of ugly, but you aren't handicapped. That's pretty harsh, Wisdom, given it's only a 10 point scale, to say that 2 is horrific and only 3 points higher is normal. That would mean that 8 Bod was horrifically strong compared to 5 BOD, and it's not. Same for Ref and Int. 3 points just isn't a huge enough variation for CHUD.
 
Ahh..that'd be stats of 0 to 1. Like Empathy, where 0 is non-functional. What you're talking about is reaaaally non functional.

Attr of 2 means with Personal Grooming 3 you look as good as ATTR 5 people who didn't bother with the PG skill. You are at the bottom end of ugly, but you aren't handicapped. That's pretty harsh, Wisdom, given it's only a 10 point scale, to say that 2 is horrific and only 3 points higher is normal. That would mean that 8 Bod was horrifically strong compared to 5 BOD, and it's not. Same for Ref and Int. 3 points just isn't a huge enough variation for CHUD.

Even in RAW, a 2 is re-rolled on stats, because it means you are handicapped.

If the average IQ is 90-110 (ie 5-6), then we can extrapolate that a 4 is 80, and a 3 is an IQ of 60. Which is pretty damn mentally handicapped. 2 is 40, and 1 is 20... at which point you are a step above vegetable...

at the high end, an INT of 10 would have an IQ of 210, which is ridiculous... but higher IQ's have been recorded.

Similarly, a person with a 2 BOD would be able to carry 20kg and dead lift 80... yeah, that is pretty handicapped man... even at 3 (30 and 120) we are talking a wallflower of ridiculousness...

A Movement Allowance of 3 is 18 yards in 3 seconds at a dead run... most of us walk faster than that... At 2 that drops to 6 yards... roughly 18 feet, moving as fast as they can in three seconds...

So yeah, it's safe to say stats of 3 or below are handicapped, 3 being functioning, but still able to apply for disability.

So when someone tells me they have a 2 ATTR, yeah, they are a CHUD... they aren't burn victim, or the Elephant Man, but no one is rule 34ing them either... ok thats a lie, someone will rule 34 anything... but you know what I mean.
 
No. Simply not, Wisdom. A deadlift of 80 kg is 172 pounds. That is a lot. Can you lift that? Warm up first. I know many, many MANY people who cannot easily lift, or lift at all 80 kg. Nearly every grandmother, many women and many men under 150 pounds. They are not handicapped - they are weak. "Very Weak", as the book says.
Worst strength possible - for a starting character. But not crippled. You need Disaster Strikes to do that.

Note that being actually physically handicapped -is- covered in game. You can start at Ref 2 and go to Ref 1 with Disaster Strikes, for example.

I don't know what you mean by a CHUD, but an actual CHUD is horrifically disfigured.

In order to that in-game, an Accident, under Disaster Strikes, will reduce ATTR by 5, well below 2.

Can you go below 2 in-game? Yes. Empathy does it all the time. So can wounds, diseases, etc.

IQ tests are pretty worthless. Averaging from a poor concept isn't worth anything either.
Try the system itself. Int 2 means you have difficulty remembering and observing Easy tasks - without an applicable skill. So 8 or better. An "average" Int of 5 would need 5 or better on 1D10 - not really the difference between your IQ 40 (INT 2) and 100 (INT 5) in any game application.

It is not safe to say that below 3 is handicapped. That's your perspective, I doubt R.Tal would agree. Mentally handicapped people, without getting all politically correct here, have issues that are more complex than the CP2020 INT stat measures. All INT does is measure, "problem solving ability, figuring out problems, noticing things, remembering information."

Someone with Down's Syndrome has mental challenges - and physical ones- that dwarf the ability of a simple 0-10 stat system to measure. And any silliness like mere IQ tests.

On a related note, by your scale at 20 points per, INT 4 would be 80 IQ, ten above what used to be marked as "retarded". I would never tell a player their character was retarded and certainly not at INT 4. Learning disability, self-absorbed, poor retention of facts, sure. But at INT 2-3 they can still be creative, intuitive, funny and emotionally intelligent. Is that mentally handicapped? How would we measure that? The handicapped can be those things as well. INT is..yeah. Let's stick to the book definition and apply it to in-game skill usage.

Edit: oh, on the subject of re-rolling a 2? Only with the "Fast" dice generation method. Otherwise you are free to put points wherever you want them and there is nothing in-book saying at 2 or 3 you're "handicapped" if you do so.

Good thing, otherwise Chris would be Luck Handicapped.

Edit Edit: Hey, 60 points for character gen is Supporting Character. Fuck That. I'm now fully in the camp of "70 pts or better".

At least be the star in your character's story, fer chissakes. "Supporting Character" my balls.
 
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Given the recent discussion I think first we need to hash out what the numbers assigned to stats actually mean.
Given a 1-10 (more-or-less, lower and higher are possible) scale do we assume 5.5 is Joe/Jane Average with no detrimental or advantageous effects?
Thus is 4 a slight disadvantage and 6 a slight advantage? Or is 4 and 6 a significant departure from the norm?
Given you have only a 1-10 scale to work with can you have a difference of +/- 1 be that significant?

Note: One reason I use a 5-18 (actually 0-25 with mods) scale myself with 10.5 being average. More numbers in the scale means a +/- 1 is less significant.
 
Hm.

For ATTR, specifically: one person's "10" is another person's "...meh? I guess they're a'aight."

Physical attractiveness is WILDLY subjective, so I think of the Stat scale as more of a ballpark. A 7 ATTR gives me the impression that the person is generally attractive. Maybe not "drop all jaws upon entering the room" attractive, but someone you wouldn't kick out of bed the next morning.

I like Wisdom's suggestion for INT; contrasting the highest recorded IQs, and equating that with a 10, with average IQs from the 5 - 7 range. For a roleplaying mechanic, I think a lower INT score could also translate as some kind of cognitive disability, rather than just Down's.

One of my player's characters justified a low MA score as their character having a limp from a bum leg (courtesy of being tuned up by the Mob, when they were late on a gambling debt.) Character bought themselves a nice sword cane to help them adjust.

While I think some stats can be measured in terms of raw metrics (BODY, for example,) I think low scores in other Stats can be played up a number of ways.
 
If I ever get you both on GTA V at the same time..... Imagine the conversations as we are murdering fools?

i was on last night briefly. Then had to go to bed as I had work. TONIGHT IS GOOD. Also the weekend.

Yeah, I could have summed up my entire reply as this: "I just have a problem with writing off nearly 1/4 of your possible stat range ( 2-3) as handicapped, is all. If I do that as a Ref, no player will ever use that range, and I need that range for 9-10 to be less common."

That's basically it. I liked 1 or even less than 0 to describe serious ailments that represent less than 10% of the population is all. As soon as I used the word, "handicapped", I guarantee no player will put points there.

And I -want- the little bastards to fail ATTR and INT checks occasionally, just so they could have that high COOL and MA. Heh heh heh.

You know, any players reading this is going to look at us as Refs and hide.

IT'S OKAY. WE CAN BE TRUSTED. WE WANT YOU TO HAVE FUN. and die a lot BUT MOSTLY FUN.
 
I like Wisdom's suggestion for INT; contrasting the highest recorded IQs, and equating that with a 10, with average IQs from the 5 - 7 range. For a roleplaying mechanic, I think a lower INT score could also translate as some kind of cognitive disability, rather than just Down's.

I'll disagree, the highest recorded IQ is freakish and off the normal scale, so probably around 12-13.
10 should equal the something around 140, thus:
01 = 50
02 = 60
03 = 70
04 = 80
05 = 90
06 = 100
07 = 110
08 = 120
09 = 130
10 = 140

This way a 2 = a dysfunctional level, and since "normally" 2's get a reroll characters will at least be functionally intelligent (i.e. 3+).
 
I'll disagree, the highest recorded IQ is freakish and off the normal scale, so probably around 12-13.
10 should equal the something around 140, thus:
01 = 50
02 = 60
03 = 70
04 = 80
05 = 90
06 = 100
07 = 110
08 = 120
09 = 130
10 = 140

This way a 2 = a dysfunctional level, and since "normally" 2's get a reroll characters will at least be functionally intelligent (i.e. 3+).

Um..... My IQ is higher than 140... at least at last measure back in high school (159)......... and I think we can all agree I am not freakishly smart.

10 is supposed to be freakish... just like with the BOD example.... and why Master Lee was shot down as having a 10 BOD, because he isn't one of those human/beef animal hybrids who pulls busses with his pinky toe while juggling barbells........ not that a power lifter can juggle, or wipe his own ass, but you get the idea...
 
i was on last night briefly. Then had to go to bed as I had work. TONIGHT IS GOOD. Also the weekend.

Yeah, I could have summed up my entire reply as this: "I just have a problem with writing off nearly 1/4 of your possible stat range ( 2-3) as handicapped, is all. If I do that as a Ref, no player will ever use that range, and I need that range for 9-10 to be less common."

That's basically it. I liked 1 or even less than 0 to describe serious ailments that represent less than 10% of the population is all. As soon as I used the word, "handicapped", I guarantee no player will put points there.

And I -want- the little bastards to fail ATTR and INT checks occasionally, just so they could have that high COOL and MA. Heh heh heh.

You know, any players reading this is going to look at us as Refs and hide.

IT'S OKAY. WE CAN BE TRUSTED. WE WANT YOU TO HAVE FUN. and die a lot BUT MOSTLY FUN.


No, Be afraid, be very afraid....

Because the truth is I am far too nice as a GM, and if I can fool you into acting scared it helps my ego and REP.
 
No, Be afraid, be very afraid....

Because the truth is I am far too nice as a GM, and if I can fool you into acting scared it helps my ego and REP.

Suuuuuuuure. Sure you are.

IQ 140 is genius. Either you're a genius, the test was off or IQ tests are worthless. Pick.

BOD 10 is simply off for highest. That's a deadlift of 880 pounds, nearly 200 pounds short of the current record. So, yeah.

Far as I'm concerned 2-10 for stats is the range for 95%+ of the population. The outliers can be higher or lower, but not in game terms without a really cool backstory. Or a bad roll on Disaster Strikes, eh heheh ehheh.
 
Far as I'm concerned 2-10 for stats is the range for 95%+ of the population. The outliers can be higher or lower, but not in game terms without a really cool backstory. Or a bad roll on Disaster Strikes, eh heheh ehheh.
This, I'd agree with.

Though, now I'm scratching my head again, about what bodytypes are represented by the BODY Stat.

A body of 5 would be a 200 kg deadlift, or just shy of 441 lbs.

In game terms, BODY 5 is the low end of Average, but most of the guys I know that are pulling 4+ plates (405+ lbs.) have what I'd think of as better than average physiques.
 
Though, now I'm scratching my head again, about what bodytypes are represented by the BODY Stat.

A body of 5 would be a 200 kg deadlift, or just shy of 441 lbs.

In game terms, BODY 5 is the low end of Average, but most of the guys I know that are pulling 4+ plates (405+ lbs.) have what I'd think of as better than average physiques.

Yeah, the Bod stat is nuts. I pulled that plus and believe me, I was far from average. Low end of actually strong, but well above normals.

If nothing else, this thread makes it clear the stat ranges are pretty unclear. I think R.Tal did their best within a 9 digit range, but there is just too much variation.

Most people I know without training flat-out cannot pull 200 pounds. Maybe once and possibly injuring themselves. So:
BOD 2-4, BOD x10 is your max lift, with an average BOD + Str Feat roll.
BOD 5-6 is BOD x 20 in KG, Average roll.
BOD 7-8 is BOD x 30 kg.
BOD 9-10 is BOD x 40 kg.

For every point you roll above your Average target number of 15, you get to add 10kg to the lift. Same is true in the opposite direction. So let's say you, Mr Average, wants to lift 100kg. Not easy. Without training, ( Strength Feat ), you'd need a natural 10 on 1D10. With training, it could be as easy as not rolling a critical fumble and you're good. If you wanted to lift 200 kg, that'd be a lot harder. You'd need to beat 15+10 for a total of 25. Good luck.

For a serious guy, lifting 200 kg at BOD 10 is an automatic success, unless you roll a 5. Lifting 400 kg would need you to roll a 15 on your BOD+ strength feat - not too hard, but you could still blow it. Warm up first.

As for other stats..yeah. Haven't looked too hard at MA in years..
 
BOD 2-4, BOD x10 is your max lift, with an average BOD + Str Feat roll.
BOD 5-6 is BOD x 20 in KG, Average roll.
BOD 7-8 is BOD x 30 kg.
BOD 9-10 is BOD x 40 kg.
Stealing this, as this makes FAR more sense to me. A gradient increase, rather than linear.
 
hmmmm I still fail to see how this doesn't make someone with a 2 bod legally handicapped?

It makes them weak. Using phrases like, "legally handicapped" isn't too clear. Legal in what jurisdiction? If they have a bad back, does that mean they are handicapped? If they are a starved concentration camp victim, are they then handicapped? Do they have dysentery?

When I tore my bicep off, my BOD for the purposes of lifting was about 2..I suppose I could have tried to lift more with my jaws....interesting image..but my arm was out of action from injury until it healed. I guess that's handicapped? No one offered me the damn sticker, though. Swine.

That said, if you wanted to make someone really weak, yeah, that's what you would select.
 
You may not have gotten the sticker, but you should have at least qualified for the temporary mirror hangy thingy..

Hell, I am at work and don't have the books in front of me, but at -3 don't you start taking negatives to your hand to hand damage.... that sounds pretty handicapped to me... If you roll a 1 with a -2 handicap, do you actually give the guy back HP? (obviously not, and anyone who actually suggests something with have feral cats thrown at their face)
 
Suuuuuuuure. Sure you are.

IQ 140 is genius. Either you're a genius, the test was off or IQ tests are worthless. Pick.

Genius is base lined at 125 and I.Q. tests are worthless, if you know what you are doing can score what you like.

A wiki quote but good none the less "the current view of psychologists and other scholars of genius is that a minimum level of IQ, no higher than about IQ 125, is strictly necessary for genius; but that level of IQ is sufficient for development of genius only when combined with the other influences identified by Cox's biographical study: opportunity for talent development along with the characteristics of drive and persistence." from here
 
Genius is base lined at 125 and I.Q. tests are worthless, if you know what you are doing can score what you like.

I agree completely. This is in part because Wisdom decided that stats of 2-3 on a scale fo 2-10 means you are handicapped. Note those aren't minimum stats for humans: injury, disease and cyberware can reduce stats to 0 or less. He makes a non-bad point that a BOD of 2 is so weak for a young to middle aged male as to be representative of a physical handicap, but that excludes a whole range of people who are not young to mid aged males. Anyway.

Why are we not putting characters here? Are we such cowards?

Here's mine:
 
I agree completely. This is in part because Wisdom decided that stats of 2-3 on a scale fo 2-10 means you are handicapped. Note those aren't minimum stats for humans: injury, disease and cyberware can reduce stats to 0 or less. He makes a non-bad point that a BOD of 2 is so weak for a young to middle aged male as to be representative of a physical handicap, but that excludes a whole range of people who are not young to mid aged males. Anyway.

Why are we not putting characters here? Are we such cowards?

Here's mine:

Wow a stealth master Ninja awesome cyber there Sard lol
 
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