Game Journalism - Unfit for purpose?

[Unkindled]

Hmm. I think just because you aren't bothered about the representation of minorities doesn't mean other people aren't. I'm white so if minorities aren't represented I guess it doesn't affect me, but I have friends who really want to see their races represented in the video games they play, and I want them to be happy and enjoy the games more, so I'd definitely be happier with more minorities in games.

I see. Well indeed I'm not a radical feminist BUT i don't think that most people who view that game make the separation. When I saw that comic posted on reddit, all of them comments were just attacking feminists in general, which isn't fair.

Ahhhh i'm really sorry about the double post I made a mistake plz don't smite me mods

I'm sure a lot of people do, but to be real honest, I'd tell my fellow minorities that they need to hush and instead get involved in the gaming industries themselves. People write the stories they want to write, with the characters they want to write. If someone is white, they're going to tend to write white characters. It's not an issue, it's simply human nature to make characters you feel you can relate to. Yes, they can relate to people of other races, of course. But this isn't a conscious decision people make. Go into a school cafeteria. You'll see the kids, who know nothing of racism, still largely divided by race, and also gender, because hanging with people you can relate through looks is human nature.

Point being, there shouldn't be any sort of push in my opinion to make anyone be more inclusive, not when there isn't any sort of rule or law causing there not to be. Game developers include races and strong women all on their own, and when they do, it's through a genuine want. No one told Telltale games to make two of the best protagonists in a story ever be minorities. They just did it, and that authenticity can be felt, and is something you simply cannot beat.

People indeed do group feminists with these radicals, but that's one, because they're the most outspoken, two because the rational ones aren't doing much to differentiate themselves, besides people like Christina H Sommers, and three, saying radical and marxist feminists everytime is long winded

 

[PrincessCiri]

I'm sure a lot of people do, but to be real honest, I'd tell my fellow minorities that they need to hush and instead get involved in the gaming industries themselves. People write the stories they want to write, with the characters they want to write. If someone is white, they're going to tend to write white characters. It's not an issue, it's simply human nature to make characters you feel you can relate to. Yes, they can relate to people of other races, of course. But this isn't a conscious decision people make. Go into a school cafeteria. You'll see the kids, who know nothing of racism, still largely divided by race, and also gender, because hanging with people you can relate through looks is human nature.

Point being, there shouldn't be any sort of push in my opinion to make anyone be more inclusive, not when there isn't any sort of rule or law causing there not to be. Game developers include races and strong women all on their own, and when they do, it's through a genuine want. No one told Telltale games to make two of the best protagonists in a story ever be minorities. They just did it, and that authenticity can be felt, and is something you simply cannot beat.

People indeed do group feminists with these radicals, but that's one, because they're the most outspoken, two because the rational ones aren't doing much to differentiate themselves, besides people like Christina H Sommers, and three, saying radical and marxist feminists everytime is long winded

I think sometimes this is easier said than done. I have female friends who work in male dominated industries and the amount of sexist BS they have to deal with is enough to make me know I never want to work in that industry.
It must be the same for minorities as well. Nobody wants to work in an industry that is hostile to you. Not to mention that if the industry is biased against you in the first place, finding a decent job in it is 100x harder.

I agree people should get out there and write the games they want to play, but not all of us have the time or resources to learn that stuff, and I don't think it's too much to ask for the gaming industry to have non-white male people in their video games.

And I also disagree about the 'white people write white people' point. I'm a writer and I make an effort to write a fair mix of people, so I have a varied cast of characters. It makes things more interesting when you have a variety of people from different cultures.

I mean, imagine if every single video game character looked and behaved like Cullen. We'd all get fed up of that pretty quickly (well... maybe not TOO quickly but you get my point) Varied characters, through personality, race and background is what makes them interesting. And I'd much rather have that, than lazy writing from people who can't think beyond their own gender and race.

 

[Unkindled]

First, I'd be careful about assumptions, @Princess_Ciri. Not every industry is the same, and if there's one thing I learned from Gamergate, thanks to the many people who are actually apart of the gaming industry, it's that it isn't at all like that, due to the gaming culture. Also, just because it may be more difficult, doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. That's the problem with this society now. Everyone wants an easy fix. That lead to issues before in our past, and people still haven't learned from that it seems.

Next, of course writers should try and make their characters diverse. That's exactly why you see diversity in gaming now. Do people think it's a coincidence that writing in games have increased in quality in the same rate that diversity in gaming has increased? Yes there's still more whites, but that comes down to what I said about human nature. Every story doesn't need to consist of a rainbow. It's not even practical in some settings. But also, race has nothing to do with character, so the Cullen example doesn't work for me.

Bottom line, gaming is already diverse thanks to the growing interest in games from everyone, and the better writing. And it will continue to be, so long as interest in gaming continues. We don't need anyone coming into this industry with their ideals trying to force an agenda on creativity. Leave that to Hollywood and the movie business.

 

[Blothulfur]

I do think that cherry picking what subject matter is acceptable based on personal preference is a big problem in journalistic circles, and stems from an atmosphere where subjective opinion trumps fact, and emotion trumps logic, obviously this is idiotic. Just because I like something, i'm not gonna be loath to criticise it, for instance the Witcher 2's console peasant UI punishing us of the master race unnecessarily, i'm not gonna stay stum on that. Bad for me, bad for the company.

Similarly dismissing Bayonetta as not a strong female when she KILLS GOD, just because she shows off her ridiculously proportioned body, in a plot that is a blatant power fantasy for any player, with over the top moves and systems throughout. If you don't like it, that's fine and I don't, but judge it objectively not through biased eyes.

Devs can make anything they want, I will not try to constrain them in any way other than in basic functionality, if I don't like it then I won't buy it. The Game Journalists who want to force a politically correct checklist on an inustry that already caters to almost every taste, is inclusive and has been since its founding as anyone can and does play, and has featured strong female characters from Iolo's adventuring wife Gwenno in Ultima twenty plus years ago, through Fall From Grace, to Kreia and the vast number of protagonists in any character creator rpg right up to the present day.

I certainly don't feel the need to have any protagonist be like me, i'm not that much of a special snowflake. And I don't mind that white men are slaughtered in most games without a thought, by the thousand, and portrayed as worst monsters than any creature of the night. In fact I like and admire the writing of a good antagonist or villain, I certainly wouldn't ask the game devs to stop making them as they're a bad reflection on us males. Which is exactly what the Game Journalists are arguing for for the gender whom are presented in a much better light than us men ever are.

As for different races, so long as it makes sense yes, but lets not break the internal logic of a world. Throughout history travel was dangerous, wearying and not attempted without great effort. This is different in our modern world, but a medieval peasant will not see beyond his local market town, while a Marco Polo type character is fucking rare and noted to be so. As were Greeks trading for tin in Cornwall, Vikings journeying to Byzantium etcetera. If it is not a city at the crossroads of the world, such as Rome, Byzantium, Babylon or what have you, then you are not going to see a massive variety of peoples. You will see the indigineous race mainly.

This also forgets alien species such as Dwarfs, Elves and such, whom are often remarked upon without thought, or made into offshoots of humanity by being able to breed with us. And simply step onto the crowded streets of Sigil where a whole multiverse rubs shoulders in Planescape: Torment. Game for all tastes are out there, if you want more variety go and look for them. Don't listen to the lies of Game Journalist slandering developers and spouting racism against the white men, whom had a big hand along with women such as Roberta Williams in making this industry and building it up to this point.

We've been asking for more of everything for decades, it's the Game Journalist who have been asking for games to streamline, cut content and features, focus on the core experience and make dead uninteresting worlds, that are nothing more than corrdiors of alternate combat and cutesy conversation. Which they then award perfect scores. We have fought against this decline for years.

If you want better games, start criticising shit, stop letting Journos get away with their shit, stop fettering developers with what you buy, take part in a kickstarter if it appeals and is from a reputable dev, buy good games rather than lowest common denominator slop, don't let a developer sell you half a product that you have to play make believe to complete, don't settle for non interactive graphical picture books like Gone Home and Dear Esther, and exercise some fucking caveat emptor. Oh and never expect the dev to cater just to you, whoever you are, as you're one of millions with the same demand. That's impossible unless you make your own game.

All my personal opinion and all that shit.

 

[EliHarel]

I agree with @Princess_Ciri about one of her points. GamerGate shouldn't pull the "here are female protagonists" card. Mind you, I'm on GamerGate's side, but this still seems like something of an empty argument. Like Princess Ciri said, for those several female characters mentioned in the comic strip, there are dozens of more male ones. There certainly aren't nearly as much strong female characters. Trying to argue otherwise feels dishonest to me.

Personally I want to see more strong female characters, and not as bimbo'fied as they sometimes are, with or without skimpy armor. Just as I'd like to see more interesting male characters who aren't walking piles of muscles, mind you. I have no trouble admitting that the status of female characters needs some refurbishment. But this isn't because I feel most games are sexist or some such, nor because I feel that it would help bring out the gamer in more women around the world. I don't. That sounds like hogwash to me. I'll even argue that games don't necessarily need to represent any sort of player. I don't think the vast majority of male characters I played represented me in any way, but that didn't harm my enjoyment of the game and the story.

 

[Unkindled]

I agree with @Princess_Ciri about one of her points. GamerGate shouldn't pull the "here are female protagonists" card. Mind you, I'm on GamerGate's side, but this still seems like something of an empty argument. Like Princess Ciri said, for those several female characters mentioned in the comic strip, there are dozens of more male ones. There certainly aren't nearly as much strong female characters. Trying to argue otherwise feels dishonest to me.

Again, what does the quantity matter? Besides the fact that the demographic of core gamers, the ones that spend more time playing games, and the ones that take part in the industry itself are males, what in the world does the quantity of strong male characters to female matter, so long as there are indeed strong females to choose from? It isn't an empty argument, because the point is there are still plenty of different characters who are considered strong. Just because someone's opinion of what is a strong woman is different than others, doesn't really change that they are there.

 

[Garrison72]

I prefer the MMA/Ronda Rousey approach to injecting diversity into a boy's club - get in there, kick ass, make a change with an organization that's willing to back you up ( UFC). You never saw the MMA media berating organisations for a dearth of women fighters. Instead, they celebrated the few they had. Then they promoted Ronda as role model, they praised her to the sun, and now women's WMMA is one of the biggest draws in the sport. Just compare that to the tactics game journos have chosen and it makes one a little sick to the gut.

 

[Unkindled]

Ding ding ding. He gets it.

 

[Blothulfur]

I prefer the MMA/Ronda Rousey approach to injecting diversity into a boy's club - get in there, kick ass, make a change with an organization that's willing to back you up ( UFC). You never saw the MMA media berating organisations for a dearth of women fighters. Instead, they celebrated the few they had. Then they promoted Ronda as role model, they praised her to the sun, and now women's WMMA is one of the biggest draws in the sport. Just compare that to the tactics game journos have chosen and it makes one a little sick to the gut.

That's because they don't want strong women, they want their own vision of what a strong woman is, and they want it presented blatantly and clumsily without subtlety or nuance. And then they want to pat her on the head, tell her she's a good girl and is obeying their mandate. Ronda Rousey, Mad Mall, Aud the Red or Margaret Thatcher they'd eat these little twats for breakfast.

 

[Unkindled]

Also on Bayonetta, it was a female who designed her look. I find it more problematic that people think women can't embrace their sexuality than anything else. Men show pecks and most people think nothing about it, but everyone has something to say about the woman's skimpy attire.

I don't like it personally, but I'm just one man. There are both men and women that do like it.

 

[EliHarel]

Again, what does the quantity matter? Besides the fact that the demographic of core gamers, the ones that spend more time playing games, and the ones that take part in the industry itself are males, what in the world does the quantity of strong male characters to female matter, so long as there are indeed strong females to choose from? It isn't an empty argument, because the point is there are still plenty of different characters who are considered strong. Just because someone's opinion of what is a strong woman is different than others, doesn't really change that they are there.

I guess that this is the line that can be argued, and specifically the word "plenty". Some might consider the selection plentiful, others not so much. Can I state a number at which point there's unarguably plenty? I can't, no. Other than 50-50, which feels too contrived. I think you'll agree with me that the quantity does matter; it's only difficult to place your finger on just how much. For example, if there were 100 games, out of which only two protagonists were female, would you agree that something about the quantity is off? This is obviously an extreme example, but it's just to communicate that intuition that quantity isn't inherently pointless.

Also on Bayonetta, it was a female who designed her look. I find it more problematic that people think women can't embrace their sexuality than anything else. Men show pecks and most people think nothing about it, but everyone has something to say about the woman's skimpy attire.

I also feel that sexuality has become something of a thing to be afraid of when it comes to women in games, or just games in general. Which I find silly. It's not something that should be shunned.

I'm trying to come up with a more level-headed and less prudish argument about erotic characters for the challenge, and I think I have one:

What's interesting to examine is whether or not the sexuality of women is emphasized, while that of men isn't - in the same game. Or if the exaggerated sexuality feels out of place. I didn't conduct a survey about this, it's just some food for thought, and admittedly there's one game in particular that comes to mind when I write these lines - MGS5. Or rather, it's promotional material, since I have no idea how the characters will behave and what will come of them in the game itself.

What I did see in the released footage so far is on one hand a soldier who is dressed in very utilitarian garments that seem in place with his role, and other characters all around him who are also designed in a fairly realistic matter, and then a woman whose clothing is extremely out of place with what was, until her appearance, a mostly realistic-feeling atmosphere. There was a few brief minutes of Big Boss moving around shirtless, but they were the exception to the rule.

 

[Blothulfur]

The ripped stockings and underwear outfit that Snake (or whatever he's called now) can also wear?

I don't know much about MGS but Dona said it's all one big piss take, when I pondered on all the ridiculous names.

 

[Unkindled]

I'm not really going to get into a numbers game. To me, as long as there is a presence, that is enough. If people don't think there is, then they either need to look, or get involved in the industry themselves.

For me, I don't care right now what a character's race is. But if I did, and looking for cool minorities was an objective, I'd look to Fallout New Vegas for Ulysses, I'd look to James Heller in Prototype 2, Clementine and Lee in The Walking Dead, James, Ashley (in the first game) Captain Anderson in Mass Effect, The Elder Scroll's badass Redguards, Assassin's Creed's Ezio and Altaire, Killer Instinct's T.J. Combo, Halo's Sergeant Johnson and Spartan Emile...

Could there be more, yes, but what there is right now isn't bad, and the numbers are already increasing all on their own. And they will keep doing so.

As for metal gear, I'm not a fan, and I dislike the game for several reasons, but generally, it comes back to what is considered sexy for men vs women. But japanese games in my opinion (not all) aren't exactly the best examples to look at.

 

[Mataresa]

Ok, suppose 2 out of 100 games have a strong female lead. Take away all games with a customizable female or male character, all games without any protagonist, all games where all characters are mediocre at best, all games that are shit by anyones standard, all games that deprecate men as dumb brutes and then interpolate for which intended audience it was and you will be left with a fairly reasonable ratio. Could there be more interesting female characters? Sure! Could there be more interesting characters in general? Yes! Personally I have never seen a character in a game, that I can identify with. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy the other games. Always playing myself wouldn't be much escapism anyway. More diversity sure! Get on with it and make the game you like. But changing the way current people make games is unreasonable. No planned mysoginy there, just underrepresentation of certain groups of people that want to make other games. Part of maturing as an industry..Still too few people dare to venture into more serious and complex stories with any kind of character.

 

[EliHarel]

Ok, suppose 2 out of 100 games have a strong female lead. Take away all games with a customizable female or male character, all games without any protagonist, all games where all characters are mediocre at best, all games that are shit by anyones standard, all games that deprecate men as dumb brutes and then interpolate for which intended audience it was and you will be left with a fairly reasonable ratio. Could there be more interesting female characters? Sure! Could there be more interesting characters in general? Yes! Personally I have never seen a character in a game, that I can identify with. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy the other games. Always playing myself wouldn't be much escapism anyway. More diversity sure! Get on with it and make the game you like. But changing the way current people make games is unreasonable. No planned mysoginy there, just underrepresentation of certain groups of people that want to make other games. Part of maturing as an industry..Still too few people dare to venture into more serious and complex stories with any kind of character.

That's taking my made-up example a bit out of context. It's sole purpose was to relay the feeling that quantity isn't a pointless matter, and that even if we can't properly express it, something feels off when the presentation is extremely unbalanced. So I'll just rephrase it as "2 strong female leads, 98 strong male leads" to better clarify the point.

This is not to say the presentation is, or isn't, extremely unbalanced. This is not to say these numbers are indicative of any real trend. This was only to suggest how quantity does have value in and of itself, even if it's not the only category, or even the most important.

I agree with much of the second half of your post, but not all.

I don't think there's any point in mentioning and dismissing misogyny in a game's design, let alone a deliberate one, because frankly I don't see any serious and thoughtful claim of that sort. That word is quickly being stripped of its meaning with how casually it's been thrown around in this fiasco. Also, the anti-GamerGaters are mostly saying that there's a portion of GamerGaters who are misogynistic, not that the games are. I think.

As for the "instead of changing existing Devs, become one yourself" argument, I'm still forming my opinion about it. Intuitively something feels wrong about that advice, but I'll wait until I have a stronger grasp on it before commenting.

 

[Unkindled]

As for the "instead of changing existing Devs, become one yourself" argument, I'm still forming my opinion about it. Intuitively something feels wrong about that advice, but I'll wait until I have a stronger grasp on it before commenting.

It's admittedly akin to people saying "Oh, you think the story sucks? Well lets see YOU do it better!" Which is a fallacy in it of itself. But in the case of making gaming more inclusive, it's the only thing one can do without stepping on the toes of the creators. They don't have a responsibility to make their game more inclusive to gender or race. Their only obligation is to make what they want and what they think will sell.

And since games that sell are the ones with good writing, and good writing tends to have characters that are different and interesting, the only other option in my mind without getting authoritarian is to simply support those games that you like with your purchase. It's a free market for a reason.

edit: Of course being interesting and different has nothing to do with being white or not. But you get the idea. Support those who use diversity on their own and dare to make characters like Lee and Clementine. I'd support them because the characters are good though, not because they're minorities.

 

[KingHochmeister]

Support those who use diversity on their own and dare to make characters like Lee and Clementine. I'd support them because the characters are good though, not because they're minorities.

I can't say how much I agree with this statement

 

[Unkindled]

I can't say how much I agree with this statement

Glad to hear it :lol: That's just the way it's got to be if people care at all about the freedom of speech they harp on about. The gaming industry's gotten better all on its own, so one can only assume that it will continue to do so. People are just complaining because of this instant gratification society we live in. They don't care that gaming has gotten better, they want it to move faster. And in some cases, more accurately, they want it to change into their chosen image.

 

[sidspyker]

I don't think there's any point in mentioning and dismissing misogyny in a game's design, let alone a deliberate one, because frankly I don't see any serious and thoughtful claim of that sort.

Let's just for a second take that claim seriously - certain games are misogynistic.

...so what? It's an artistic medium like any other, those claims means nothing, there is no reason that misogynistic/racist/whatever art is a "problem". "Birth of a Nation" is an extremely racist movie and yet it has tons of merit as a movie and an artistic work despite it's tones.

If one doesn't like it that's fine, that's not a reason for said work not to exist.

 

[HellKnightX88]

Let's just for a second take that claim seriously - certain games are misogynistic.

...so what? It's an artistic medium like any other, those claims means nothing, there is no reason that misogynistic/racist/whatever art is a "problem". "Birth of a Nation" is an extremely racist movie and yet it has tons of merit as a movie and an artistic work despite it's tones.

If one doesn't like it that's fine, that's not a reason for said work not to exist.

But it makes you misogynistic! The same way violent games make you vi-ohwait!