Sword stuff. And other tech/martial arts related discussions.

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It's exactly because he's not (and admits it) a katana expert that I like his video (compared to most others), he's not biased, if he doesn't know he says so.
But I think you'll have to agree he knows sword fighting in general, and most of his observations I have to consider "expert opinions" because of that.

I don't think anyone knowledgeable argues against a curved blade cutting soft material (i.e. flesh) better then a straight one. But I'd argue that vs armor NEITHER is superior. Cutting in general is MUCH less effective vs armor then a puncture (and not infrequently blunt impact).

Now, when it comes to puncturing armor the katana has an advantage on most (obviously those designed specifically for this have an advantage) european swords due to the design of it's point and the quality of it's steel/construction.
 
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Yeah, I've seen those videos and I have some issues with his "treatises" on the Katana. First off, he admits that he is not an expert on the katana, and, in fact, has very little experience with them. He is a HEMA enthusiast (European sword arts), and, therefore, has a bias towards European blades. Granted, he is a little less biased than one or two other "HEMA" fans on Youtube i've seen videos by, but still. Given that, I have to take his opinions on the Katana with a grain of salt. It is one thing of note about his last video which is important to our little discussion, and which supports what I've been saying about how much better a Katana can cut vs a European straight bladed sword. Even, scholagladiatoria says that a curved blade cuts better than a straight blade. His choices for the best cutters have extremely curved blades. A curved blade concentrates the cutting power of the swing in a smaller area creating more force per square inch. The other factor for a Katana's better cutting and thrusting power, is the stiffness of the blade (not to be confused with hardness), while by no means"rigid", the katana does have a stiffer blade than a European long sword, much like a heavy-duty leave spring is stiffer than a light duty leave spring. This is because the katana typically has a thicker cross section at its thickest point, the shinogi. This means, it will drive into its target with more force before bending.

But he has had experience with them, and as he also said he does know people who are very experienced with them as well (which it did sounds like he does speak with when it comes to the Katana). And the fact that he is not blinded by what movies, tv-series, games, anime/manga stuff... about the Katana, where it tends to pretty much be shown to have qualities that it could possibly not have... but rather looks at the weapon for what it actually is... and really I have not once heard him say that Katanas are bad weapons, and do praise them, and only really coming down on it when it comes to what a lot of people tend to claim Katanas are capable of (when they are in fact not capable of all a lot of people think they are)... then I do think his opinions is valid and valuable.

Also... calling him an just an "enthusiast" is a bit unjust. I mean he "only" runs one of the oldest and biggest HEMA groups in UK, he has been tampering with HEMA stuff since 97 and has been teaching it since 2000, he is the director of one of the biggest HEMA annual events, his formal educational background is in Medieval Archaeology and History, amongst a lot of other things that he does etc.

Some would maybe think all of this is evidence of that he would somehow be biased, but nothing of what he has said has made me think that... he does not seem to bash the Katana, neither does he claim that european swords are somehow entirely superior to the Katana (most weapons will have both plus's and minuses... including the Katana). If anything he seems to be very willing to give praice where it is due, but not look awayand ignore the downsides of a weapon... be it if it is the kinds he prefer, Katanas, or any other type of weapon.


Also... being able to cut very well is not everything when it comes to swords. That is just one single aspect of it all.

Also, a bad thing about the Katana when it comes to thrusting attacks... the fact that it is as thick as it is... is a problem. Yes, it will puncture what ever it is easier then most other swords, especially harder materials... but, due to it's thickness, which is significantly more so then most european swords, it will be stopped pretty fast... you might get in a few(several centimeters, but then the thickness of the blade is going to start working against it. Another problem with thrusting, that you would only really see if someone with a Katana went up against someone with european swords, is the length of the weapon. The Katanas blade is unusually short... yes you can get longer ones, but so can you with european ones.

All I really am saying when it comes to the Katana is that as a weapon in general, it is not really better then other weapons. It has it's pro's and it's cons, areas where it performs better, and areas where performs poorely, as does all weapons.


Now, when it comes to puncturing armor the katana has an advantage on most (obviously those designed specifically for this have an advantage) european swords due to the design of it's point and the quality of it's steel/construction.

I don't neccesarily think it does... at the initial point of the hit it does have a much better chance to pierce what ever it is hitting... but due to the thickness of the blade, a thickness that you get to pretty quickly after the point of the blade (most katanas, from what I have read, tend to be equally thick through out the entire blade, except for the last few centimeters where it goes into the point). I would then due to that argue that there might be a chance that it actualy does not penetrate as far as other sword's (who also managed to pierce the same thing) might.

A lot of european swords to stay pretty thin pretty far up the blade from the tip... especually the ones who where made for thrusting and piercing attacks. Of course, due to that it is not as good at that initial piercing when it hits... but if it does pierce it will possibly go deeper then what a Katana does.
 
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Actually, its "thickness" isn't a detriment because of its shape, specifically, the cross section, and how the blade curves to the edge and tip. Most European swords taper towards the edge at a shallow angle, but then abruptly change the angle to a much sharper one, creating a bevel right before the edge. A katana, on the other hand, has a continuous smooth curve from it's thickest point down to the edge and tip. Thus, it punches and slices through armor and flesh more smoothly and easily both when cutting and thrusting.
 
Actually, its "thickness" isn't a detriment because of its shape, specifically, the cross section, and how the blade curves to the edge and tip. Most European swords taper towards the edge at a shallow angle, but then abruptly change the angle to a much sharper one, creating a bevel right before the edge. A katana, on the other hand, has a continuous smooth curve from it's thickest point down to the edge and tip. Thus, it punches and slices through armor and flesh more smoothly and easily both when cutting and thrusting.

There is a lot of different kinds of edge shapes for european swords. It all depends on what the sword is supposed to be used for, what qualities one is looking for in the sword, etc. Not to mention that you can sharpen them in may different ways to, to get different kinds of sharp edges for different purpouses.

Sword cross section.
 
There is a lot of different kinds of edge shapes for european swords. It all depends on what the sword is supposed to be used for, what qualities one is looking for in the sword, etc. Not to mention that you can sharpen them in may different ways to, to get different kinds of sharp edges for different purpouses.

Sword cross section.
Yep, and the three most common, are the Hexagonal, Hollow Ground, and Broad fuller, all of which have that abrupt beveling just before the edge, as well as at the tip. Those types of cross section are what cause a lot of the trouble with both cutting and penetration from thrusting. The katana's cross section, from its widest point to the edge, tends more towards perfectly straight:



Lenticular:


or Fuller:




This last image is from this source, which goes into great lengths as to the benefits of the thick , rounded "Niku", of a katana, and how it helps a katana not only cut through flesh more easily, but also cleave through thicker and tougher substances, such as armor.
This means less resistance when cutting and thrusting, and therefore, more penetration.
 
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And yet... I am not talking about cutting... I am talking about piercing... and specificly once the blade (of any kind of sword) actually does pierce.

Let's adress that thing, about sharpness... there is a myth going around that european swords where not sharp or something, that the europeans thought that "well since the edge will get dull from use anyway... why bother sharpening it at all?". This is pretty much a load of bull.



Now back to piercing stuff.

I have already said that on the initial hit the katana is really good at penetrating the surface. And the thing I have been talking about is that once that happends, once the blade does go through the surface, I do belive that some european swords will go deeper then a katana... just based on the pure fact that the thickness of the katana is pretty much the same through out the entire length of it, and especially since that tickness goes pretty abruptly into the point... where as for example a longsword will constantly become thinner and thinner the closer to the tip you get. There will be less resistence for such a blade once it has pierced, compared to the katana.

And yes, the edge of for example a longsword might maybe go into a bit of a sharp angle for the final bit of the edge... but that is on such a tinly thickness of the blade where that happends, that it becomes pretty much unimportent on this case. Where as the rapid increase in thickness, from the tip and back, on a katana... could cause problems. The katana will have to push more material aside due to that, then what a longsword might have to push aside. It is only at the initial hit that the longswords flexibility in the blade might be a problem, causing it to not manage to penetrate... but if the weapon actually does penetrate the flexability does not matter anymore. Also, halfswording a sword would also remove such problems as the flexability of the weapon, of course you would have to get more upclose and personal to use halfswording, but like always there are pro's and cons with doing anything with a sword.

I don't know if it was you, or someone else who said it here, but someone did say that going in deeper then an inch (or was it two?), during a thrusting attack, with a katana is not adviced, because it might get stuck due to it. And that is part due to the fact that the blade is at a constant thickness. Most european swords would be easier to pull out due to the fact that the blade constantly get's thinner towards the tip.

I found somewhere that a pretty common thickness for a katana is somewhere in the range of 5-7 mm... which is roughly the same as a longsword just after then hilt. Then if you check closer to the tip maybe 3-6 cm away from the tip of a katana, then your still at 5-7 milimeter, maybe a slightly bit less if it's one of the versions which does get a bit thinner towards the tip in both thickness and width. Where as I have found information about longsword made after the design of real longswords which have been found, where the thickness at the hilt was 5-7 mm (in the center of the blade of course), and about 10 cm away from the tip the thickness of the blade is down towards 3 mm (again in the center line if the blade), and with the final 10 cm it going down a little bit more... at the same time as the width of the blade has also been getting thinner and thinner as well.
 
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Actually, No, a katana is not the same thickness the entire length of the blade; not a traditionally made katana anyway (some of the "knock-offs" on the other hand). The blade of the katana does taper in both thickness and width as it goes from the Habaki to the Kissaki. It typically loses about two millimeters in thickness as it tapers towards the kissaki. And its tip, while still designed with cutting in mind, is a superior piercing tip particularly to the flattened "chisel tips" used on many "Americanized" blades. . Check this article: Americanized Japanese blades.

To quote:
Different styles also feature different length kissaki (pronounced "keesa-kee"). On some swords, this may vary from two thirds of an inch to more than two inches. Contrary to a lot of sales pitch by American tanto makers, the tip is not a "reinforced piercing point" but rather was constructed for maximum cutting power. Note the curvature to the point. Tests have also proven that in addition to improved ability for cutting, the curved point is actually superior in piercing ability to the much vaunted "chisel" point favored by so many American makers. The real reason for the chisel point is that it is much easier to grind to shape than the curved point, and it approximates the appearance of traditional point-all the stories and hype are just an attempt to hide laziness and lack of skill!
 
Come on people, Swords have lots of uses in Cyberpunk.... I mean they look great as a fashion accesory with formal wear for twats, they are nice to hang on walls, they can open envelopes, you can even open champagne bottles with them....

Only an idiot would take them into battle though....
 
Come on people, Swords have lots of uses in Cyberpunk.... I mean they look great as a fashion accesory with formal wear for twats, they are nice to hang on walls, they can open envelopes, you can even open champagne bottles with them....

Only an idiot would take them into battle though....
Or a Shinobi. :harhar:
 
You mean those guys that are are basically murder fodder for every hero ever.... I mean, they are pretty much the same things as nazi's.... mooks you can slaughter without guilt or remorse....
 
You mean those guys that are are basically murder fodder for every hero ever.... I mean, they are pretty much the same things as nazi's.... mooks you can slaughter without guilt or remorse....
Only your "low level Ge-nin" would be that easy to beat. Nah, I'm talking about the elite Shinobi. The "Special Ops" , the Chu-nin, and the Jo-nin, not some "grunt". You know, the guys that actually know what they're doing.
 
Does it have ninjas? I bet it has ninjas.

I love ninjas.

Mind you, they're more afraid of you than you are of them. Also post office boxes. Yep.
 
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