Digital Foundry: getting CP2077 to work on the last gen of consoles was a herculean task

[Bukary77]

Streaming and decompression of data is a challenge. But the engine itself, the REDengine is clearly not sub-optimal [...]. It's soaking all available cores and getting as much out of them as possible. And it is leveraging those console specific low-level APIs. It's just that the sheer amount being asked to the CPU arguably is just too much. And how CDPR aimed to get more out of Jaguar with its upcoming patches for Cyberpunk to improve performance there remains to be seen. What seems clear to me is that to get Cyberpunk 2077 into the state it's in even now looks to have been a herculean task as the scale of the ambition in this game [...] it's clearly next generation in nature.

Quite interesting video that might lead to both optimistic and pessimistic conclusions:

1) REDengine is really good. Kudos to everyone who engineered this gameframe. It might allow CDPR developers to build some incredible content for newer consoles and PC in the future.
2) As we all know, CP2077 is supposed to provide a similar experience on every system. Unfortunately, because of the console CPU limitations it might not be possible to significantly improve AI and other questionable systems in the game (on the consoles and, ergo, on the PC). Speculation: the future patches will probably include some bug fixing only (or some redesign of features that are not imposing an excessive drain on the CPU).

 

[iCake]

Yes, the Red Engine in its current iteration is a thing of beauty, regardless of how strong your opinion of the game may be (both positive or negative). Just think for a second that it can stream in such an expansive, vertical city with ton of detail, where the detail level is more on par with, if not exceeding, a hand crafted non-open world environment, and that it can load it all in both in real time and in under 10 seconds when loading a save (at least that's how it is on my hardware, the game is on a mere sata3 ssd, no m2s or PCIe or whatnot). Yes, that's nothing short of impressive in my books. I don't know why you have to point this out to so many people.

 

[exxxed]

I wonder if at any point the game updates will verge into two distinct paths, first gen consoles and next gen machines.

I was suspecting that the culling system was not actually bugged but worked as intended based on the lowest common denominator, once that's sorted it can be iterated upon or expanded on in it's function to allow the pedestrian and traffic AI to remain loaded in at all times in a specific cell around the player.

Now I'm wondering if the restricted AI systems are as they are because of this limitation (there's traces of more advanced AI behavior in the game code) and the general stability took precedence over the expanded AI systems...

I'm curious to see where CDPR will take it, there's a base here that could do wonders for future content updates.

 

[iCake]

...Now I'm wondering if the restricted AI systems are as they are because of this limitation (there's traces of more advanced AI behavior in the game code) and the general stability took precedence over the expanded AI systems...

Well, since I got my hands on the game, I've been pretty sure the AI is what it is now is exactly due to the consoles' CPU lack of power. And the infamous "it runs surprisingly well on consoles" is not to be taken as "it runs perfectly" but rather as "I'm blown away it runs as well as it runs all things considered!"

Of course, I may be wrong here, but somehow I don't think I am.

 

[exxxed]

Well, since I got my hands on the game, I've been pretty sure the AI is what it is now is exactly due to the consoles' CPU lack of power. And the infamous "it runs surprisingly well on consoles" is not to be taken as "it runs perfectly" but "I'm blown away it runs even how it runs now!"

Of course, I may be wrong here, but somehow I don't think I am.

If you observe the AI routine it seems to be there, the problem is the NPC's despawn before they get to do anything meaningful or the AI itself gets cut off at points for arbitrary reasons - for example the traffic AI just suddenly stops when nearing a district border on the freeway.

But I've never had any problems with the combat AI, they're always super aggressive and they seem to have some semblance of intelligence, like melee rushing me into cover, ranged hanging back to protect the netrunner and spam my last known location with grenades etc. but I think there's a limit to the AI actors that can take part in the sandbox cell surrounding the player (which is why some of the pedestrians need to be culled out).

 

[iCake]

If you observe the AI routine it seems to be there, the problem is the NPC's despawn before they get to do anything meaningful or the AI itself gets cut off at points for arbitrary reasons - for example the traffic AI just suddenly stops when nearing a district border on the freeway.

But I've never had any problems with the combat AI, they're always super aggressive and they seem to have some semblance of intelligence, like melee rushing me into cover, ranged hanging back to protect the netrunner and spam my last known location with grenades etc. but I think there's a limit to the AI actors that can take part in the sandbox cell surrounding the player (which is why some of the pedestrians need to be culled out).

Well, not exactly my experience, while I do agree with the point about culling the pedestrians (what travesty, lol!), I have observed a lot of problems with combat AI as well, while the baddies that are close to you do show half a brain, the ones who are a few clicks away do nothing at all, wouldn't even try to close in on your position, and if you have already dealt with the close up guys and went from combat into search mode, they far away guys would just yell things like "it is just a matter of time, mf!", but that's about it, they'll not do anything to actually find you.

 

[SigilFey]

I think they'll be able to figure out something that will create a perfectly enjoyable experience. (I mean...they got The WItcher 3 to run on the Switch. They got The Witcher 3...a cinematic, action/RPG of over 50 GB of content, with an enormous amount of customization and likely around 80-100 hours of gameplay...to run on a hand-held console. I strongly believe CP2077 will work just fine on last-gen consoles in the end.)

Where I think it may lose some points with people is in comparisons to versions of the game running on more powerful hardware. Obviously, last-gen hardware will not be able to achieve all the same highs, especially in terms of things like graphics, size of crowds, or AI complexity, as will be possible on present-gen hardware or more powerful PCs. And obvioulsy, people won't be able to avoid drawing the comparisons.

But, I still believe the core expereince of the game will be perfectly intact on XB1 and PS4.

 

[exxxed]

Well, not exactly my experience, while I do agree with the point about culling the pedestrians (what travesty, lol!), I have observed a lot of problems with combat AI as well, while the baddies that are close to you do show half a brain, the ones who are a few clicks away do nothing at all, wouldn't even try to close in on your position, and if you have already dealt with the close up guys and went from combat into search mode, they far away guys would just yell things like "it is just a matter of time, mf!", but that's about it, they'll not do anything to actually find you.

I think what you're referring to is the alerted NPC's that haven't yet found you, yeah I've noticed the same thing, it's like their pathing is bugged and doesn't allow them more than a few meters arc to search for you which is silly when you look at it.

But once aggroed I've never encountered stationary combat AI that doesn't do anything (mind you I've only experienced the game on very hard) in fact at lower levels they're really deadly.

But when they haven't yet been alerted their AI pathing is actually quite varied, there was a million times I've observed and traced the NPC's in an area only to start my approach and for them to do something totally unexpected and either getting really close to or outright detect me because I was standing stupidly in the open between covers.

So the pathing is there it just doesn't seem to be working or activating properly once they get into the alerted state for some reason and they just walk around in a small circle shouting at you.

 

[iCake]

I think what you're referring to is the alerted NPC's that haven't yet found you, yeah I've noticed the same thing, it's like their pathing is bugged and doesn't allow them more than a few meters arc to search for you which is silly when you look at it.

But once aggroed I've never encountered stationary combat AI that doesn't do anything (mind you I've only experienced the game on very hard) in fact at lower levels they're really deadly.

But when they haven't yet been alerted their AI pathing is actually quite varied, there was a million times I've observed and traced the NPC's in an area only to start my approach and for them to do something totally unexpected and either getting really close to or outright detect me because I was standing stupidly in the open between covers.

So the pathing is there it just doesn't seem to be working or activating properly once they get into the alerted state for some reason and they just walk around in a small circle shouting at you.

To be fair even those enemies that has actually entered combat with you but happen to be a long way away from you don't do anything more than take cover. I'm all for better AI in this game, but I couldn't care less for pedestrian, car AI etc, I mean those things would be nice and I'll welcome them but I'd rather see them fix combat AI first, because it has distance based issues for sure.

And not to end it on a sour note, I've actually had those yelling from far away goons actually make their way to my position and sometimes even detect me, but it's such a rare occurence you can almost think of it as bug. So, yeah, I would agree with you, that there are signs that AI is supposed to be way more sophisticated and it's just not working properly as of now for some reason. That fact alone at least leaves us some hope that this'll be fixed with upcoming patches, maybe even in the very next patch.

 

[Huncas_Martins]

Not a very bright decision. If launched on PC first THEN consoles, Cyberpunk would probably be one of the best games ever.

 

[asavah]

Greed was what killed this game long before it was born.
While having a very ambitious idea and great world to build on the task was understimated.
The game was supposed to be released on every gaming platform known which is still supported, yep, even stadia, except switch and mobiles.
Totally a greedy management mistake.
CP77 should have been released on PC and next gen only. Period.
This would allow to save so much needed time and human resources and have a much better game at release time.
A year or so after that they could have released it for the current gen consoles.
But, no, for CDPR reputation and quality do not seem to matter anymore, its just the money, but the irony is that by releasing sh*t they actually lost a lot of money.

 

[msxyz]

Meh, Read Dead Redemption 2 runs on PS4/Xbox One.

I don't see anything revolutionary in the Red game engine itself. Aside from assets streaming it's quite basic. They scaled up The Witcher 3 engine thinking it would be enough, bu they clearly underestimated a lot of things. A cyberpunk 2077 realized using Bethesda's Creation engine would have probably been little less impressive on the GFX front much much more usable.

 

[Bukary77]

A cyberpunk 2077 realized using Bethesda's Creation engine would have probably been little less impressive on the GFX front much much more usable.

No, thank you.

 

[maniak6767]

Meh, Read Dead Redemption 2 runs on PS4/Xbox One.

I don't see anything revolutionary in the Red game engine itself. Aside from assets streaming it's quite basic. They scaled up The Witcher 3 engine thinking it would be enough, bu they clearly underestimated a lot of things. A cyberpunk 2077 realized using Bethesda's Creation engine would have probably been little less impressive on the GFX front much much more usable.

Yeah right I can see Night City without cars, every district with around 30 NPCs walking around, 2 minutes loading screens everytime you enter clothing shop, amazing lipsync, top notch animations...ofc lets not forget groundbreaking narrative and storytelling.
Ask yourself why in Skyrim player can run faster than horses...
Kinda dissing Bethesda,but their enigne is very limited

 

[taiwanluthiers]

I noticed npc in cyberpunk walking back and forth in circles. Not sure if its a bug.

 

[ignacio78]

Meh, Read Dead Redemption 2 runs on PS4/Xbox One.

I don't see anything revolutionary in the Red game engine itself. Aside from assets streaming it's quite basic. They scaled up The Witcher 3 engine thinking it would be enough, bu they clearly underestimated a lot of things. A cyberpunk 2077 realized using Bethesda's Creation engine would have probably been little less impressive on the GFX front much much more usable.

Night City is a vertical city, with many NPCs and buildings with interiors (not one or two rooms). It is as if you put all the areas of the RDR2 map into one.

 

[iCake]

Yeah, now we predictably have RDR2 this RDR2 that comments. Let's see, a flat terrain with nothing but grass, trees and a few animals (the wild life simulation is impressive, there's no denying that), sometimes there's an occasional village with a few people in it. Then there's Saint Denis, the closest to what you can call a city in this game, and surprise, surprise, the game gives you a lot of framerate issues there, at least it did noticibely lag on my Xbox One and as far as I can tell from my conversations with other console players, people with Xbox One X and PS4, PS4 Pro that is, the situation is not much different there as well.

However, what I said is not to shit on RDR2 in any way, it is an amazing game and I stand by this opinion and always will, and is a technological marvel in its own right, but the scale of how much throughput you have to "squeeze in" to make it work is hardly comparable with what Cyberpunk 2077 pushes. As DF said there, the scope of what Cyberpunk tries to achieve truly is "next-gen" in nature.

 

[Bukary77]

More pessimistic conclusions regarding last-gen version of the game and future patches:

CDPR is unlikely to cope with the technical limitations of las-gen consoles

 

[iCake]

More pessimistic conclusions for last-gen version of the game and future patches:

CDPR is unlikely to cope with the technical limitations of las-gen consoles

It is cool to take a look at both sides of the coin, so to speak, rather than keep blindly staring just at one. Thanks for the article, it was a good read. As for what it's going to be, I guess one can only wait and see. There's hope though, with what @SigilFey pointed out and to add to this, how they were able to eventually fix pretty bad framerate issues in the bog area in the Witcher 3 on consoles, but hope can only go so far. Regardless, time'll tell as it always has.

 

[msxyz]

Night City is a vertical city, with many NPCs and buildings with interiors (not one or two rooms). It is as if you put all the areas of the RDR2 map into one.

Verticality is limited to a few roads, terraces or underpasses. The rest is just terrain at different heights but the map is pretty bidimensional. Interiors are also pretty limited too: no building is fully navigable like they said in one of the previews. Also, having so many flat perpendicular surfaces helps a lot with hidden surface removal since all the vertical walls and tall buildings hide everything behind them. A nature scene with grass, trees with branches (which must rendered as masked polygons) is pretty intensive to draw. Not to mention that the lack of perpendicular surfaces makes it more difficult to compute collision and navigation. That's why early 3D games were mostly complex mazes or urban landscapes.