A Few Words of Polish

[TC_Coyote]

@Corylea I didn't know that English speakers have problems with something that trivial like 'asked'

Well, it's a regional accent thing in some cases, at least in the US.

Though Polish speakers have problems with 'undecided' sounds in English like 'th'. For example in word 'through' (It's a monster! Somebody call a witcher ). How should I pronounce that? Is it 'tru' or 'sru' or maybe 'fru'? And what is it with this 'gh' at the end? Who put it in there since you don't say it? Aghr...

"Through" is pronounced the same as "threw" ...also note that American English tends to use different spellings than British English for various things. For example, we don't tend to include the letter 'u' following 'o' (American English: armor, color; British: armour, colour); use 'z' instead of 's' near the ends of some words (criticize, capitalize, standardize), 'ch' instead of 'que' in some words (cheque/check), 'e' instead of 'ae' or 'oe' in some words (hemorage instead of haemorage, fetus rather than foetus), using 'er' instead of 're' at ends of words (center instead of centre, caliber rather than calibre), 's' rather than 'c' in words such as 'defense'... Most of these spelling differences date back to Noah Webster who published his first dictionary in the US around 1800 and was in favor of "spelling reform". Many of his alterations were adopted by the public, others were less successful and were ignored (such as the suggestion to change 'tongue' to 'tung')There's also various words that are different in US/UK English because, in many cases, the US is using older words (dating back to around the time of the original Colonies) while UK English has changed to different terms over the centuries since then.

 

[Gamewidow]

i've got to say the anglophones who cannot pronounce "asked" are rare ... many CHOOSE to mispronounce it ... and for "through" try saying an S with your tongue sticking out for the "th"... that's the sound ... the "ough" is just "oo" ... and i consider americans to be U-impoverished (and in some cases, just plain lazy)

 

[Corylea.723]

Here's also interesting the way it's written, not only the way it's pronounced His name was: Grzegorz BrzęczyszczykiewiczAnd he was born in: Chrząszczyrzewoszyce, powiat Łękołody ;D

Oh, god. That must have been so hard when he was a little kid, having to learn to properly arrange 27 letters, just to spell his name! One of my favorite singers is a woman named Amy Ray* -- she only had to learn 6.

@Corylea I didn't know that English speakers have problems with something that trivial like 'asked'

Well, it's a regional accent thing in some cases, at least in the US.

It's certainly true that the acceptability of giving up on the correct pronunciation and going with one of the easier ones varies from region to region. In my experience, though, "asked" is a word that many people have trouble with when they're overtired or drunk or something. This isn't to say that they can't pronounce it, just that it's a word that takes more effort to pronounce correctly than words that don't have a k-t sound.

i've got to say the anglophones who cannot pronounce "asked" are rare ... many CHOOSE to mispronounce it

You're the second one -- did I say that native English speakers can't pronounce "asked"? I meant to say that it's a word that gives many people some trouble or that requires a little more effort to pronounce correctly, not that it's one that's impossible to pronounce.

... and i consider americans to be U-impoverished (and in some cases, just plain lazy)

Yes, yes, we know we're the country you love to hate. : I think Quixote's post was very even-handed; he didn't say that one way was better than another, just noted that they were different, for non-native speakers who may have wondered.Personally, I think the difference between "armor" and "armour" is trivial; the thing about English that seems to give non-native speakers difficulty are the differences amoung (happy, GW? ;D)"I run""I am running""I do run"And verb/preposition pairs, god! "Take in," "take down," "take over," "take back," and "take up" all have very little to do with the base meaning of "take." They're really completely different verbs, but using completely different words for them would make that too easy. :whatthe: And SO many of our verbs are like that; I feel sorry for anyone who tries to learn English.

Though Polish speakers have problems with 'undecided' sounds in English like 'th'. For example in word 'through' (It's a monster! Somebody call a witcher ). How should I pronounce that? Is it 'tru' or 'sru' or maybe 'fru'? And what is it with this 'gh' at the end? Who put it in there since you don't say it? Aghr...

This is such a well-known problem in English that there's a joke that proves that "ghoti" is pronounced "fish." ("Ghoti" isn't a real word in English; it was made up just for this joke, though the joke is well enough known now that it's making its way into the language a little bit; I have a friend who uses "ghoti" as her screen name. )The average native speaker would look at "ghoti" and think that it should be pronounced like goat (the animal) plus "ee."But if it's "gh" as in "rough," that sounds like "f."If it's "o" as in "women," that sounds like a short "i."If it's "ti" as in "nation," that sounds like "sh,"all of which proves that "ghoti" is pronounced "fish."So, yeah, we're aware that the spelling-to-pronunciation of English isn't exactly intuitive. There have been some movements to try to make English spelled more like it's pronounced -- Quixote mentioned Mr. Webster, and his "tung" -- but you saw where that got us; just leaving out unpronounced and unnecessary "u's" is controversial in some circles.Esperanto, anyone? ;D*usually known as "the dark-haired Indigo Girl," as opposed to "the strawberry blonde Indigo Girl" -- she's Emily Saliers

 

[Vattier]

Esperanto, anyone? ;D

Nah, I didn't learn English and all these hooks in Polish just to start speaking in Esperanto Even if the inventor of this language was from my city

 

[cassandra31eee]

The difference between english and polish language is that, in english if you don't pronounce a word correctly, you will sound funny, but in polish they won't understand you. For example the words, bez and beż. The first means without and the second is the color light brown.

 

[Corylea.723]

The difference between english and polish language is that, in english if you don't pronounce a word correctly, you will sound funny, but in polish they won't understand you.

Oh, well, then I should definitely learn to speak Polish! No one ever understands me, anyway, but at least if I were speaking Polish, I'd have an excuse.

Even if the inventor of this language was from my city

You're from the city he was born in (Białystok), or one of the cities he lived in later?

 

[wisielec]

Heh good one Cass.DAMN! I'm late for such a interesting and addictive conversation! (my work is killing me! Tylko się powiesić ;P)On more thing is that in english often softens consonants like in great. In polish its more like affricative, g and r are more distinct that is why polish english is harder to the ear and more wistling at times (many snake sounds) - words like something are close to some sinkAnybody who says polish is easy because of what you see is what you get knows nothing about our grammar declension; inflection, declension, conjugation; through time, sex, cases...verbal adjunct, adjectival apposition or attribute...I dont know are this even correct in english . YOU use in singular and plural as well while we've got TY, WY. Top of the ice berg that sank Titanic I tell you. Its not easy, quite the opposite I asssure you (all).Some long polish words:konstantynopolitańczykiewiczównaor most ordinal numbers trzystutysięcznytrzystatrzydziestytrzeci :dead: have fun!

 

[Yumemi13]

wisielec I meant Polish is easy to read If someone wrote a text in Polish and someone else have to read it loud (no understanding included ), than (s)he just needs to know how to pronounce the letters. That's all, no surprises. "O" is always "o" and not like: women, bowl, wepon and so on As for the grammar: Polish is NOT an easy language! If I recall correctly it was in top ten (or even top five) hardest languages in the world (With Chinese on top).

 

[Corylea.723]

DAMN! I'm late for such a interesting and addictive conversation!

I addressed you by name in the first post, since I thought this topic might interest you; I'm glad to hear that you were just busy.

(my work is killing me! Tylko się powiesić ;P)

Ah, you can turn anything you want to say into a language lesson -- bravo!

(many snake sounds) - words like something are close to some sink

I was watching a video of a woman speaking Polish syllable-by-syllable so that language learners could follow along. I was a therapist in real life until I got sick, so I've watched a lot of people talk, and I noticed that her tongue seemed to be closer to the front of her mouth when she spoke than English-speakers' are and seemed to be more visible in general. Parselmouths*, you are!

Anybody who says polish is easy because of what you see is what you get knows nothing about our grammar :

I'm reading some of the witcher books in French, since they haven't been translated into English. I noticed that the people in these novels used the familar "you" ("tu") with nearly everyone; almost no one was addressed respectfully/formally (using "vous"). I wondered if Polish had both formal and familiar forms of "you" and if not, how the French translator had decided which to use. So I looked up "Polish language" in Wikipedia and discovered that Polish has a bazillion different ways to say "you" -- I found this in a table: * Ty jesteś – You are (familiar singular) * Wy jesteście – You are (plural) * Pan/Pani jest – You are (masculine/feminine, singular, polite) * Państwo są – You are (plural, both sexes together, polite) * Panowie są – You are (plural, masculine, polite) * Panie są – You are (plural, feminine, polite)Um, yeah. How do you translate that into French? "Tutoie everybody but the king and screw the differences!" Sure, that works for me. *I assume that most of the people who play RPG's have read the Harry Potter novels, though I doubt that there's a standard translation into other languages for "Parseltongue" and "Parselmouth." "Parseltongue," in the Harry Potter universe, is the language of snakes, and "Parselmouth" is a human being who can speak it.

 

[wisielec]

Tylko się powiesić means: (thers nothing left) but to hang (my-)oneself - powiesić is a infinitive...@Otaku:yep, and if I misred something I solemny swear I'll try harder. ;D@Cory:I havent red Hairy Płoter, I'm sorry but if you say so, parselmouths that is (we are???grrr). there are some beautiful literature/poems in polish that take advantage of the ssss's and rustling sounds. For example "Deszcz Jesienny" by Leopold Staff:O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesiennyI pluszcze jednaki, miarowy, niezmienny,Dżdżu krople padają i tłuką w me okno...Jęk szklany... płacz szklany... a szyby w mgle moknąI światła szarego blask sączy się senny...O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesienny... Wieczornych snów mary powiewne, dziewiczeNa próżno czekały na słońca oblicze...W dal poszły przez chmurną pustynię piaszczystą,W dal ciemną, bezkresną, w dal szarą i mglistą...Odziane w łachmany szat czarnej żałobySzukają ustronia na ciche swe groby,A smutek cień kładzie na licu ich miodem...Powolnym i długim wśród dżdżu korowodemW dal idą na smutek i życie tułacze,A z oczu im lecą łzy... Rozpacz tak płacze... To w szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesiennyI pluszcze jednaki, miarowy, niezmienny,Dżdżu krople padają i tłuką w me okno...Jęk szklany... płacz szklany... a szyby w mgle moknąI światła szarego blask sączy się senny...O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesienny... Ktoś dziś mnie opuścił w ten chmurny dzień słotny...Kto? Nie wiem... Ktoś odszedł i jestem samotny...Ktoś umarł... Kto? Próżno w pamięci swej grzebię...Ktoś drogi... wszak byłem na jakimś pogrzebie...Tak... Szczęście przyjść chciało, lecz mroków się zlękło.Ktoś chciał mnie ukochać, lecz serce mu pękło,Gdy poznał, że we mnie skrę roztlić chce próżno...Zmarł nędzarz, nim ludzie go wsparli jałmużną...Gdzieś pożar spopielił zagrodę wieśniaczą...Spaliły się dzieci... Jak ludzie w krąg płaczą...To w szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesiennyI pluszcze jednaki, miarowy, niezmienny,Dżdżu krople padają i tłuką w me okno...Jęk szklany... płacz szklany... a szyby w mgle moknąI światła szarego blask sączy się senny...O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesienny... Przez ogród mój szatan szedł smutny śmiertelnieI zmienił go w straszną, okropną pustelnię...Z ponurym, na piersi zwieszonym szedł czołemI kwiaty kwitnące przysypał popiołem,Trawniki zarzucił bryłami kamieniaI posiał szał trwogi i śmierć przerażenia...Aż, strwożon swym dziełem, brzemieniem ołowiuPołożył się na tym kamiennym pustkowiu,By w piersi łkające przytłumić rozpacze,I smutków potwornych płomienne łzy płacze... To w szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesiennyI pluszcze jednaki, miarowy, niezmienny,Dżdżu krople padają i tłuką w me okno...Jęk szklany... płacz szklany... a szyby w mgle moknąI światła szarego blask sączy się senny...O szyby deszcz dzwoni, deszcz dzwoni jesienny...Another great and dramatic poet is Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński, only 23 when killed during Warsaw Uprising. He managed to create great deal of poetry of such quality that it only saddens that war shortened his life. Classic.Alas...moving on, another tongue twisters: Pójdźże, kiń tę chmurność w głąb flaszy. Translation: Come on, drop your sadness into the depth of a bottle. This one is not particularly hard to pronounce, but alphabetically sorting characters in that phrase results in: aąbcćdeęfghijklłmnńoóprsśtuwyzźż which is the entire Polish alphabet with no character used twice. Król Karol kupił królowej Karolinie korale koloru koralowego. Translation: King Charles bought for Queen Charlotte coral-coloured corals - taken from

http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/List_of_tongue-twisters

:teeth: sorry for overall longish post

 

[TC_Coyote]

The average native speaker would look at "ghoti" and think that it should be pronounced like goat (the animal) plus "ee."

...when I look at the word, I think 'Got-E' as the pronounciation, like the Mafia guy's name, 'John Gotti'.

wisielec I meant Polish is easy to read If someone wrote a text in Polish and someone else have to read it loud (no understanding included ), than (s)he just needs to know how to pronounce the letters. That's all, no surprises. "O" is always "o" and not like: women, bowl, wepon and so on As for the grammar: Polish is NOT an easy language! If I recall correctly it was in top ten (or even top five) hardest languages in the world (With Chinese on top).

I think some languages are easier to read than to try and understand when listening as a non-native speaker. I know I have a lot easier time reading German than I do trying to speak it or understand it when it's spoken to me (granted my German's rather rusty, as it's been a few years since my last class). On the other hand, if someone says something in Arabic that's in my _very_ limited vocabulary, I can usually understand it. ...this could be a result of how I learned the languages though. My German classes involved a lot of reading/writing, while my Arabic thus far has mostly been Berlitz audio CDs and a workbook on the alphabet._If_ I remember correctly from what I was told years ago at college, the US government ranks languages in four catagories, in terms of difficulty to learn (from a native English speaker's perspective). Chinese is the sole occupant of the highest catagory on the list. I think Russian's in the third catagory. Beyond that I can't recall the placement of others.

 

[Corylea.723]

I think some languages are easier to read than to try and understand when listening as a non-native speaker. I know I have a lot easier time reading German than I do trying to speak it or understand it when it's spoken to me (granted my German's rather rusty, as it's been a few years since my last class).

When I was in high school, the German teacher would read passages aloud, and we'd have to write them down. Very few of the words were in our vocabulary, and we weren't expected to be able to understand what was being read to us; we just had to show that we could spell it. He did this pretty much every day. Okay, so I can spell German words whose meanings I do not know, but I don't know very many of them because we spent most of our class time learning how to spell words we didn't know the meaning of. Er, what? I thought it was an interesting exercise once or twice, but daily?

_If_ I remember correctly from what I was told years ago at college, the US government ranks languages in four catagories, in terms of difficulty to learn (from a native English speaker's perspective). Chinese is the sole occupant of the highest catagory on the list. I think Russian's in the third catagory. Beyond that I can't recall the placement of others.

Interesting. So Japanese, Korean, and other Asian languages are much easier than Chinese? I've always thought that a toned language must be terribly difficult and always wondered -- what happens if a tone-deaf person is born Chinese?

 

[TC_Coyote]

I think some languages are easier to read than to try and understand when listening as a non-native speaker. I know I have a lot easier time reading German than I do trying to speak it or understand it when it's spoken to me (granted my German's rather rusty, as it's been a few years since my last class).

When I was in high school, the German teacher would read passages aloud, and we'd have to write them down. Very few of the words were in our vocabulary, and we weren't expected to be able to understand what was being read to us; we just had to show that we could spell it. He did this pretty much every day. Okay, so I can spell German words whose meanings I do not know, but I don't know very many of them because we spent most of our class time learning how to spell words we didn't know the meaning of. Er, what? I thought it was an interesting exercise once or twice, but daily?

My high school German teacher enjoyed wandering off on tangents to discuss her various vacations in Germany (and elsewhere) while handing out enough photocopies/printouts on a daily basis that she must have destroyed at least a forest a year in their production.

 

[Gamewidow]

mine called us "my children" and was extremely maternal ... not that it helped with the actual lessons, but it was amusing ..."altogether now, children, translate!" (alle zusammen, Kinder .. übersetzen!) ;D

 

[Corylea.723]

mine called us "my children" and was extremely maternal ... not that it helped with the actual lessons, but it was amusing ..."altogether now, children, translate!" (alle zusammen, Kinder .. übersetzen!) ;D

One of my French professors in college, an amazing woman who seemed to have enough energy for any two people (all crammed into a body about the size of an underfed hobbit), used to call all of her pupils "ma chere." *sigh* I miss her!

 

[wisielec]

and my teachers always refered to me per "you bastard" and "what the hell are you drawing?" on occasions.

 

[TC_Coyote]

and my teachers always refered to me per "you bastard" and "what the hell are you drawing?" on occasions.

*snickers*In my MBA program, I once had a teacher comment after I'd given the correct answer to a question, something to the effect of, "See? Mr. Sandusky is paying attention. He's very quiet back there in the last row, and may not look like he's paying attention, but he is!" (Yes, I do tend to be one of those quiet folks in class who doesn't ask many questions. ....and yes, on a couple occasions, I have spent a class reading a novel or working on writing a chapter in one, and still passed the test with a perfect score )

_If_ I remember correctly from what I was told years ago at college, the US government ranks languages in four catagories, in terms of difficulty to learn (from a native English speaker's perspective). Chinese is the sole occupant of the highest catagory on the list. I think Russian's in the third catagory. Beyond that I can't recall the placement of others.

Interesting. So Japanese, Korean, and other Asian languages are much easier than Chinese? I've always thought that a toned language must be terribly difficult and always wondered -- what happens if a tone-deaf person is born Chinese?

Japanese, from what some friends of mine have told me who know some of the language, is easier than Chinese. ...and Berlitz's software indicates I have much more success in trying to pronounce Japanese words than Chinese ones. I have no idea what it has me say, but it indicates I'm saying it right Korean, from what I've read, is a difficult language in part because it isn't really "connected" to the surrounding Asian languages (as opposed to languages that have a "close" connection with each other due to a common source, such as English and German). I _think_ Arabic is in the third rank, but that's in part due to the different alphabet, likewise with most (all?) languages that use the Cyrillic alphabet. Part of China's rating is due to the written version of the language, as I recall.

 

[Corylea.723]

and my teachers always refered to me per "you bastard" and "what the hell are you drawing?" on occasions.

*laugh* Love it!

(Yes, I do tend to be one of those quiet folks in class who doesn't ask many questions. ....and yes, on a couple occasions, I have spent a class reading a novel or working on writing a chapter in one, and still passed the test with a perfect score )

Well, you've complained a number of times about being forced to take couses whose content you already learned in a different course, so I'm not sure that your knowing the answers proves that you're paying attention, but it does sound as if you're not disruptive. When I was a professor, what are called "Returning Adult Students" (those noticably older than the usual age of college students) were my favorite. They tended to be motivated and to know why they were there, and they had work habits and manners developed in the world of adults. I've heard a lot of returning adult students worry that their professors wouldn't want them in the classroom, and in my experience, only very insecure professors feel that way -- professors who actually want to teach love having you guys around! Not to run down traditional-aged students, like our Silver, but then, the only thing ordinary about our Silver is his age.

Japanese, from what some friends of mine have told me who know some of the language, is easier than Chinese. ...and Berlitz's software indicates I have much more success in trying to pronounce Japanese words than Chinese ones. I have no idea what it has me say, but it indicates I'm saying it right

*smile* My father-in-law is a (now retired) French professor, and he says that most people have language learning all wrong -- you don't learn what things mean, you learn when you should say them. I don't agree with him 100% of the time, but there are certainly times when what he says he true. If you translated "Sincerely yours" (the usual closing for business letters in US English -- I'm not sure how other English-speaking countries close their business letters) literally, it would sound like something that one would definitely not say, anywhere, in a business letter. Does Berlitz tell you when you should say those Japanese words, or is it silent on that subject, as well?

 

[TC_Coyote]

(Yes, I do tend to be one of those quiet folks in class who doesn't ask many questions. ....and yes, on a couple occasions, I have spent a class reading a novel or working on writing a chapter in one, and still passed the test with a perfect score )

Well, you've complained a number of times about being forced to take couses whose content you already learned in a different course, so I'm not sure that your knowing the answers proves that you're paying attention, but it does sound as if you're not disruptive.

*chuckles* Well most of my MBA courses were new-ish. It's just unlike certain students, I read the textbooks, and I tend to comprehend most of the stuff fairly easily....right now I have folks asking me why I'm not in law school since I'm getting perfect scores in all the paralegal courses, with one of the department heads thinking my courseload means I'm either insane, a genius, or both. Particularly when I told her I thought it was a light courseload compared to my MBA program (which kicked out anyone who got below 3.5 GPA)

When I was a professor, what are called "Returning Adult Students" (those noticably older than the usual age of college students) were my favorite. They tended to be motivated and to know why they were there, and they had work habits and manners developed in the world of adults. I've heard a lot of returning adult students worry that their professors wouldn't want them in the classroom, and in my experience, only very insecure professors feel that way -- professors who actually want to teach love having you guys around! Not to run down traditional-aged students, like our Silver, but then, the only thing ordinary about our Silver is his age.

Absolute worst behaved MBA students at my graduation: The members of the Executive MBA program, which requires the person to have been an exec for something like 10 years prior to enrolling in the program. ....I'm told by instructors that a number of them don't even know their own phone numbers because they're used to "having secretaries who handle all that stuff" :

*smile* My father-in-law is a (now retired) French professor, and he says that most people have language learning all wrong -- you don't learn what things mean, you learn when you should say them. I don't agree with him 100% of the time, but there are certainly times when what he says he true. If you translated "Sincerely yours" (the usual closing for business letters in US English -- I'm not sure how other English-speaking countries close their business letters) literally, it would sound like something that one would definitely not say, anywhere, in a business letter. Does Berlitz tell you when you should say those Japanese words, or is it silent on that subject, as well?

I haven't really dealt much with the Japanese software, so I couldn't tell you for sure. I picked up the Chinese/Japanese software package since it was on sale and I wanted to give Chinese a try to make my resume more marketable (in addition to international corporations, certain govt agencies give preference if you know certain languages, and Chinese tends to be on both groups' lists) since I've been jobhunting the past couple years since getting my MBA (Cleveland entry-level job market sucks, and I didn't have the ability to relocate at the time since I was helping care for elderly relatives).Unfortunately my attempts at Chinese pronounciation left much to be desired, so I switched to Arabic -- which honestly I find easier to learn than German was. Unfortunately Berlitz doesn't make an interactive software package for Arabic (my sister highly recommends their German software), but they do have a 4-CD audio set that starts with proper pronounciation of the alphabet, then moves into things like greetings, numbers, etc. The audio CDs, unfortunately, don't focus much on the grammar but they're basically an introductory program. I managed to find a couple introductory books on the alphabet and basic grammar as well by a different publisher. ...looking at Berlitz's travel phrasebook, they seem to focus more on how to pronounce things properly rather than transliterating from one alphabet to the other directly....and yes, "Sincerely yours" is a bit of an idiomatic phrase, I think. Every language has those and they don't usually translate exactly. For example, a few years back a local radio host was trying to get someone to translate, literally, the phrase "raining cats and dogs" into Spanish with the translator trying (unsuccessfully) to explain to him it makes no sense if you translate it directly. Or one of my professors commenting about a policeman in Germany telling him he was drunk....gah, I forget the term, I want to say it was something like 'blaunase'? Translated literally to something like 'blue-nosed'. Or in my prof's words, which I'm sure wouldn't translate successfully back to German from English, "Drunk as a skunk" (said prof had failed to recognize the higher alcohol content of the German beers he was consuming, and was wandering the wrong street looking for his car after leaving the beer hall.)

 

[Gamewidow]

I hear you Quixote! i think professional master's degrees bring out (or in?) the worst people ... i did a Master of Library Studies degree at McGill (TOTALLY bogus degree, btw) and the MOST infuriating people were librarians coming back to get their 'credentials" ... i swear if i meet one of them on the street, i'll BRAIN them with the first heavy object i can lay my hands on :evil:.... AND that was 20 years ago!... and as for asian languages, i've been told my accent in Mandarin is hilarious (but still understandable) , so i'll live with that ;D .. and i only know 2 swear words in Korean (FWWIW, it doesn't seem any worse to learn)