Cdpr wants to make unkillable children in cp2077.

[Sild]

Wouldn’t that be a twist.

It would, wouldn't it?

I remember watching Screamers (1995) and being completely stunned by that particular twist. There's something about turning something as harmless and vulnerable as children into inhuman killing machines and setting them loose on unsuspecting people that is just.. well.. unthinkable, which makes it absolutely horrifying. You can defend well enough against bullets and blades but appeal to the subconscious in that way, and you're as helpless as you can be.

 

[bioshock1998]

Hey if you really wanna kill virtual kids that bad, don't worry there will be a mod just for you.

This is not a technical decision but an artistic one. If the artists have decided they don't want that in their piece of art, then don't tell the artist what their art should look like.

Just so I don't pretend to morally grandstand here I did have a child soldier mod for Fallout 4 to add to the world and make it depressing (but realistic) AF. The thing is i know the artists didn't intend that to be a part of the game, so I didn't complain.

 

[LordSerion]

I guess I understand that nobody wants to market the game as "Hey, you can literally recreate the Anakin vs younglings scene!" but children mortality is pretty high in CP universe in general I think, given how little value life has.

So we will either get a mod for this or at least be able to slap sense into them.

 

[j3lly_m3lly]

It is realistic in that children are generally considered more ”precious” (for the lack of a better word) than adults. That’s how societies work (even with a lot of animals).

if you look at it from purely logical perspective, children are quite renewable resource because of how little investment was put in them compared to adult human that was educated and some company put a lot of money into him if he's a worker. you can think of children like blank pieces of paper that are not nearly as valuable as painting that has a lot of investment put into. it takes few years to replace a baby that died but it takes few times more time and even more times the money to replace an adult that died.
in the cyberpunk world human life would be valued by the productivity (how much money it makes per day minus the investments it takes and how much it contributes to making money, for the corporation for example) which would obviously be much higher in the adult's case, which would make children lives not very valuable resource in the world of cyberpunk.

i would say that the statement saying "children are more precious than adults" is false

It’s a social taboo. You can’t run around flaying kids like you could in Fallout or Deus Ex anymore. The moral compass there might be skewed, but there’s little to be done with that.

to me moral is respecting mankind's labor that translates to money. thanks to the mankind's labor we got life standards that would be unthinkable hundreds of years ago and most of us don't really think of it.
to me it would be way more immoral to shred a painting that has lots of labor put into making it than shredding a blank piece of paper.

 

[Bloodartist]

no, there's a big difference, because there's no evidence of existance of pooping or farting function for the npcs in the game, (which isn't really relevant because the game isn't about that and killing is definitely big part of the game)

Horses poop in Red dead redemption 2. Humans don't. /offtopic

I doubt there's narrative justification for random child killing in CP77. It was an oversight in Deus Ex and DXHR. You CAN do whatever you like to anyone, but it's not defined by writing whatsoever. So I would personally prefer a game to be consistent within itself, so it's not a problem in CP77 for me.

And did you find many child NPCs in DXHR?

Personally I think a game should show the consequences of players actions, instead of arbitrarily taking the actions away.
I am not fond of killing everything in sight nor do I get enjoyment out of killing innocents in a game, but unrealistically invulnerable NPCs don't sound good either. I remember there was a game where player could kill most everything... except cats. Cats were invulnerable. I can't remember which game it was... Skyrim?

We should discuss the ways with which CDPR could achieve this.
My suggestion: If player was about to pull the trigger on a child or essential NPC, V would instead pull the gun back, saying something like "F me, I can't do that" to themselves. "Get a hold of yourself." "What are you, a monster?" Then the cohesion of the game world wouldn't be broken. Everyone was killable... but V would CHOOSE not to do it.

 

[BabalKabak]

I'd prefer : let every NPC be mortal just like V > not having children in this game > not being able to pull the trigger on them > not pulling the trigger on innocents in general > having immortal children (and by extent : important NPCs).

That's how I see it ; I won't make arguments because it won't matter much at this state of dev. Please don't show children at all if this is a thorny subject in the eyes of the ESRB/PEGI organisms.

Post automatically merged: Dec 2, 2019

if you look at it from purely logical perspective, children are quite renewable resource because of how little investment was put in them compared to adult human that was educated and some company put a lot of money into him if he's a worker. you can think of children like blank pieces of paper that are not nearly as valuable as painting that has a lot of investment put into. it takes few years to replace a baby that died but it takes few times more time and even more times the money to replace an adult that died.
in the cyberpunk world human life would be valued by the productivity (how much money it makes per day minus the investments it takes and how much it contributes to making money, for the corporation for example) which would obviously be much higher in the adult's case, which would make children lives not very valuable resource in the world of cyberpunk.

i would say that the statement saying "children are more precious than adults" is false


to me moral is respecting mankind's labor that translates to money. thanks to the mankind's labor we got life standards that would be unthinkable hundreds of years ago and most of us don't really think of it.
to me it would be way more immoral to shred a painting that has lots of labor put into making it than shredding a blank piece of paper.

Interesting point of view and I understand your point, but I'd say the reverse : it takes 15-20 years for a child before it becomes a valuable adult, and by "valuable" it means that it had an education and somehow good treatment. If that one child has had a bad treatment until then, it will grow up with big risks of being a problem for the system. What I'm saying is that your point (IMO) works for a lesser scale of population and technology. The more complex our society is, the more educated the children need to live as valuable citizen in their grown up days. So, killing a 10-15 year-old children could be like killing that much years of "investment" plus wasting 20 more years to raise another child from the birth. (Edit) : Both children and adults are valuable in my perspective.

 

[Guest 4211861]

Hey if you really wanna kill virtual kids that bad, don't worry there will be a mod just for you.

I'm pretty much on board with what this guy said. Having invincible kids really kills the immersion.

 

[lelxrv]

And did you find many child NPCs in DXHR?

I didn't look for kids. But Jensen, as he's written in the game, wouldn't kill innocent people for no reason.

 

[Bloodartist]

I didn't look for kids. But Jensen, as he's written in the game, wouldn't kill innocent people for no reason.

Yes, of course. But my point was that I don't think there are any children in DXHR, which is one suggested solution here. (As in: the lack of them, rather that they are unkillable)

 

[Benzenzimmern]

There's many reasons we don't do it. Plenty of moral reasons, but also a very simple one: showing the on-screen death of children basically makes it impossible to market and sell the game anywhere around the world.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

There's many reasons we don't do it. Plenty of moral reasons, but also a very simple one: showing the on-screen death of children basically makes it impossible to market and sell the game anywhere around the world.

So is there a mitigating solution for bleeding hemorrhoids caused by immortal NPC's (in general; not just kids), or is it just a fact of life one has to accept that sometimes the paper is red after wiping? Uh...so to speak.

I mean, speaking of immortality in general, I understand the "need" to provide a story arc for a companion, for example. But I find it very hard to care at all about someone, no matter how well written his/her story is, if s/he just drops to a knee for a while after being shot with a minigun or some such.

And furthermore, is it not a bit limiting to create the story around essential characters? Rather than having those characters merely provide certain pathways through it (and as such, being allowed to die), while also allowing the story to be finished by the player character all by his lonesome by neglecting or killing the "storyproviders" (missing out on a lot of stuff, no doubt, but still)?

 

[0248991]

Hey,
cool topic...and controversial also.

It's kinda interesting that even with such a "trivial problem", the opinions can be so opposite and yet considered equally moral from one point of view or another.

Maybe finding answers to such questions means to be Cyberpunk?
Maybe choosing none means it?

 

[Snowflakez]

This is completely irrelevant to me. I do not care if I can kill children or not. I would not do so even if I had the option. I did do it in Skyrim with the appropriate mod from time to time, because that game is a sandbox and I found it amusing to send people (no matter their age) flying across the city with fus-ro-dah, but in a more story-driven game where player agency is much less important to the core experience (for better or worse), I understand and respect their decision.

With that said, I also respect the opinion of those who feel you should be able to kill everything that moves. It bothers me that so many people are metaphorically crucifying people for wanting the same rules to apply to all NPCs. The assumption should not instantly be that these players get some sort of sadistic enjoyment out of murdering kids (in a game) in particular. Perhaps they just get sadistic enjoyment out of killing anything in a virtual environment.

I like shooting wolves in RDR2. Doesn't mean I want to shoot wolves in real life. Heck, I have a hard time killing cockroaches, and rats? Forget about it. I've got two of the little bastards as pets (the pet breed, not wild rats forced to live in captivity), and they are the sweetest creatures I've ever had the pleasure of interacting with.

Again, I see nothing wrong with CDPR's decision. It's smart for business. We had a similar discussion about Age-Only ratings in the Sex Thread, which I think was closed quite some time ago. At the end of the day, CDPR is no longer a teeny weeny indie dev. To survive at their size, they must appease ratings boards and distributors to some degree. Let's just be glad they've retained most of their integrity.

 

[Has_Neyn]

No worries, mods will come and satisfy any desires and fantasies of people, be it killable children or not. It's gonna happen, just like it did in Skyrim.

Unless you aren't on PC, I don't see why people are complaining.

 

[jt4gov]

There's many reasons we don't do it. Plenty of moral reasons, but also a very simple one: showing the on-screen death of children basically makes it impossible to market and sell the game anywhere around the world.

In this day and age I'm surprised anyone can even attempt to question why this would be a thing. It's marketing suicide first off, but then I don't even want to imagine the legal ramifications in some countries or the blow back from parents and the media.

I'm actually flabbergasted (and happy that I got to actually use the word in a statement). Hehe, flabbergasted.

 

[lelxrv]

Yes, of course. But my point was that I don't think there are any children in DXHR, which is one suggested solution here. (As in: the lack of them, rather that they are unkillable)

DXHR was mentioned as an example of inconsistency. Be it children, hookers, drunkards or any other casual pedestrians... Some people will complain that the world in Witcher 3 is dead because you can't just slice anyone you don't like from neck to ass. Geralt won't attack anyone randomly for no reason or even to just rob somebody for money or food. Setting, story, characters dictate it. And there are games like classic Fallout. Where you can be Frank from Once Upon a Time in the West and kill children for being in the wrong place in the wrong time. Or you can be Captain America. Not only mechanic is there, setting and story don't contradict either behavior. And CP77 won't have that kind of freedom. Unless modded, like it was said numerous times above. But again, it will contradict the story.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

My suggestion: If player was about to pull the trigger on a child or essential NPC, V would instead pull the gun back, saying something like "F me, I can't do that" to themselves. "Get a hold of yourself." "What are you, a monster?" Then the cohesion of the game world wouldn't be broken. Everyone was killable... but V would CHOOSE not to do it.

This would not kill world immersion, but that would kill the link between V and the player.

 

[Snowflakez]

This would not kill world immersion, but that would kill the link between V and the player.

 

[Rawls]

We should discuss the ways with which CDPR could achieve this.
My suggestion: If player was about to pull the trigger on a child or essential NPC, V would instead pull the gun back, saying something like "F me, I can't do that" to themselves. "Get a hold of yourself." "What are you, a monster?" Then the cohesion of the game world wouldn't be broken. Everyone was killable... but V would CHOOSE not to do it.

Well this is basically how it worked in TW3, and I would not be surprised to see it work like this sometimes in 2077. Not that you can unload a clip into kids and they just sit there taking it, more like the game wont let V shoot at them in the first place. They might still need some additional resilience for car collisions, explosions and etc. We'll see.

 

[Snowflakez]

Well this is basically how it worked in TW3, and I would not be surprised to see it work like this sometimes in 2077. Not that you can unload a clip into kids and they just sit there taking it, more like the game wont let V shoot at them in the first place. They might still need some additional resilience for car collisions, explosions and etc. We'll see.

I've illustrated one of the possible methods of handling it here, CDPR is free to use it if they wish.