Combat system

[kofeiiniturpa]

Rpg's are not defined by their combat.

Fallout 2? Great rpg game with turn-based combat, Baldur's Gate 2? Great rpg game with real time combat.

No, RPG's are not defined solely by combat, that is true. It is part of the equation, though, when combat is present in the game. Branching dialogs or storylines won't define an RPG alone either, nor does and open and interactive world.

Both of your examples (great games, yeah) have fully character based combat, and neither is an "action game" in that regard nor in the same sense as every mainstream RPG today is.

There are many various ways they can have real time combat while still having tihe rpg elements impacting combat and other elements.

There are, but most of the time that's reducing "features" to "elements", where the former is the way that makes it recognizably and characteristically what it intends to be (an RPG) and the latter is "something like that or thereabout".

 

[Suhiira]

There are many various ways they can have real time combat while still having tihe rpg elements impacting combat and other elements.

Trouble is these days any game with a leveling system, dialog, and any sort of skill improvement is defined as an RPG.
Characters in this sort of game seldom have attributes, or if they do they're minimal, and those attributes have little to no effect on gameplay.

This is fine, in fact preferable in an FPS as it's all about player skill. But an RPG is about character attributes, skills, and personality.

 

[4meg]

Trouble is these days any game with a leveling system, dialog, and any sort of skill improvement is defined as an RPG.
Characters in this sort of game seldom have attributes, or if they do they're minimal, and those attributes have little to no effect on gameplay.

This is fine, in fact preferable in an FPS as it's all about player skill. But an RPG is about character attributes, skills, and personality.

The point about personality is a good one. I would prefer a game that lets me decide how to overcome any situation. All too often games only have one way of doing things. Here's the combat bit, here's the puzzle bit, here's the hidey bit, and on and on and on.

 

[Suhiira]

All too often games only have one way of doing things. Here's the combat bit, here's the puzzle bit, here's the hidey bit, and on and on and on.

Yep, as I said elsewhere, if the game only gives you only one possible solution to whatever you're doing it's not an RPG it's an interactive movie. You need to be able to talk, fight, or stealth most of the time not do one here and the other there.

 

[Ðarkstar]

Don't particularly like streamlined RPG mechanics that replaces numbers with perk trees, I'd prefer to have both. I definitely don't want another Fallout 4 though, the RPG aspect to that is culled by how awful and streamlined everything else is in that game. A levelling system that integrates TW3-esque skill trees with modifiable character stats and maybe offhand perks you get some other way (augments perhaps). Maybe that'd be too complex for the casual audience but it sure as hell beats levelling up and putting all your skill points into something that lets you one shot everybody where no skill is required.

All I want to happen right now is to be sure this game is going to require a brain and not just a finger.

 

[4meg]

All I want to happen right now is to be sure this game is going to require a brain and not just a finger.

This, this, a thousand times this.

 

[Suhiira]

Maybe that'd be too complex for the casual audience but it sure as hell beats levelling up and putting all your skill points into something that lets you one shot everybody where no skill is required.

All I want to happen right now is to be sure this game is going to require a brain and not just a finger.

It may seem complex to a very small minority of players, mostly it's that certain executive types in game publishing companies assume most players are idiots that need to be led thru a game by the nose.

 

[mcflurry928]

All I want to happen right now is to be sure this game is going to require a brain and not just a finger.

Indeed, Fallout 4 was a massive failure in my book because it didn't require a brain whatsoever. It played like normal FPS, not an RPG. I'm hoping CDPR learns from it and not chooses to take the same path as Bethesda did. A game mechanic doesn't have to be complicated, but also doesn't have to be overly simplistic.

If CDPR chooses the path of refining the mechanic from W3, that'd be okay by me. But I'll give them a helluva lot of credit if they manage to pull off with a completely different one. Since they're taking their sweet time, I hope they choose the latter

 

[Mebrilia]

Well if they want to have the feel of the pen and paper game even if will be real time and in third person Skills needs to matter... What bugs me is see people in this forum wanting this to be another of those Shooter with bland RPG elements... IF cdproject will follow this direction i will be really disappointed... but i don't think cdproject red will turn this game in another of those bland rpg element shooters (aka fallout4)

 

[cyseal]

I would like to be similar to Mass Effect. That said with more indepth RPG development, more customizable weapons, gadgets and skills.

I would want that CP2077 become for cyberpunk RPG what is Dark Souls and Witcher 3 for fantasy RPG.

Only thing what I'm not sure is traveling system and open world. You could make great sci fi narration and gameplay with hub like environments,
connected as Dark souls 3 and Bloodborne and still have the grandeur feeling of the game world.

 

[Sardukhar]

Topic: Combat System.

 

[Suhiira]

Topic: Combat System.

And they call me anal retentive ...

I think we can be fairly sure CP2077 won't be Call of Duty 2077 but the real question is will it be an RPG (where character stats/skills matter) or an FPS (where player skills matter)?

I (obviously) vote for RPG combat. But the problem is how to implement that without some sort of turn-based combat system. Simply because if you have real-time combat then player skills will matter more then character ones. The only solution I can think of is a hybrid system similar to Fallout. Those that wish can play the game as an FPS, those wishing to use character skills can use some VATS equivalent. Some folks claim that having a pause-n-play option somehow ruins the FPS gameplay, how and why I have no clue. You don't like it don't use it. It's optional not mandatory.

Not having such a system means player skills will be far more important in combat then character ones, they have to be, because the player is doing the reacting and aiming. Doing otherwise means players screaming (with some justification) about missing because their character isn't as skilled as they the player are.

Obviously if competitive multi-player is a major feature of the game that portion of the game can't use a character based combat system. On the other hand if it's cooperative multi-player I don't think most folks will mind the small pauses in the game as other players determine their character actions. Sure some folks will complain because coop doesn't play like a competitive FPS, but frankly those people probably aren't playing the game for it's RPG aspects to start with.

 

[4meg]

Let's make it a full blown RPG system with dice rolls and everything. Every copy of the the game requires a set of USB dice to plug into your computer.

View attachment 76570

 

[braindancer12]

And they call me anal retentive ...

I think we can be fairly sure CP2077 won't be Call of Duty 2077 but the real question is will it be an RPG (where character stats/skills matter) or an FPS (where player skills matter)?

they have once talked about this look at 08:45

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

they have once talked about this look at 08:45

Yeah, that one, among the biggest sources of my concerns since... that thing was fresh out. There's good stuff there too, but...

Favorite quote:

"We certainly want to avoid the situation where your combat capabilities is that much dependent on the stats, it's about your own skill."
Bad vibes, man. Baaad.

Also confirms that it won't have that retro vibe 2020 has anymore (didn't remember that one).

 

[BoboTheMighty]

W3 had awful combat, awful controls and awful gameplay design in general. They shouldn't implement anything from the W3 into CP in terms of gameplay design.

That's plain ridiculous or childishly hyperbolic, if you prefer...It had better boss battles than any western action rpg, better animation quality and easier to use combat UI, better enemy/AI variety than in most rpg's and some of the best combat sound design out there.
Controls, enemy AI and hitboxes could use plenty of improvement, though.

 

[Meccanical]

For a western made open world game, W3's combat is pretty damn good, especially in the expansion packs as they have better boss design.

It does have it's flaws, but it's not terrible, not in the slightest.

The whole issue with the combat being entirely determinate on character skill is that you will inevitably run into the famous issue of you standing arms length away from an enemy and sill missing.

And to hell with that, that was dumb then and it would be dumb now.

 

[BoboTheMighty]

How is it hyperbole? Witcher 3 has some the worst clunky unresponsive awful third person action combat I've played. The Witcher 3 in general is known for having awful combat. Bad controls, bad hit boxes, bad targeting system, enemy bad AI, the whole concept of the game turning on combat mode for you is awful, lack of any control over attack animations, bad leveling system, lack of any feedback when landing attacks, useless crossbow, etc . The fact the Bloodborne was released the same year made the already horrendous combat look even worse because it was light years better. Almost ever single western rpg has utter rubbish combat including the Witcher 3. So were comparing rubbish to other rubbish when we should be calling out what it really is poor awful gameplay design. CDPR is obvious a talented developer by they really need focus on their flaws for CP which is gameplay design because it sticks out like a sore thumb how bad they are at developing it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1137437

https://youtu.be/kkFqn1TMeH4?t=56s

https://youtu.be/75lZYTDK_sE

https://youtu.be/BLhiLRZ0MGc

https://youtu.be/jsCWy5wUs04

Again...no detailed analysis or constructive feedback, beyond childish hyperboles... It has highest user rating of all time on MC and some of the highest on Steam( both combined summarizing tens of thousands of reviews) and the highest GOTY account by critics, so googling "Witcher combat sucks"( if you consider Worth a Buy a good critic, then you will "appreciate" his review of Dark Souls as well) are very poor attempt of providing "proof" for any kind of valid criticism.
And I'm pretty sure this is the same person previously banned for attempting exactly the same, even on Reddit, with some "interesting" comments about developers, or even Poland in general.

If you want to be taken more seriously, try to act in a more adult and constructive manner.

 

[Garrison72]

IF IT'S NOT LYKE DARK SOLZ IT'S NOT A REALZ COMBAT SYSTEM MAKE IT LIKE ALL JAPANESE GAMES WHICH ARE THE SAME AND MOSTLY LIKE DARK SOLZ THANKS GUIZ I'M OUT.

 

[BoboTheMighty]

Your opinion, which again, is vastly outweighed by positive feedback from massive player community and actual critic reviews than statements from random people on "reddit" or YT...I could write an essay on issues with core mechanics of Souls series, or post hundreds of links that state otherwise, but this is not the place for it.
Again...this is forum for Cyberpunk 2077, which is based on entirely different mechanics, so personal grievances about Witcher are completely out of place here.