Geralt is great. Long live the witcher bro, but I love character creation. Cyberpunk is limited in this aspect but I don't even care cause I had a lot of fun customizing him with his limited customization. I made a dude. You can look at my profile pic. He looks weird. He had bluuuuue haaaair. I see my character in cutscenes and I love it. It's great. I appreciate the weird color eyes. I could critique aspects of character creator but I'm not gonna make this post too long. I'd prefer there to be the character creation plain and simple.
This is still on-going and so far I'm still not convinced from my initial stance if V shouldn't be customizable. The game WAS suggested as an RPG, it's derived of an RPG, it resembles an RPG (even if it lacks it in most areas) and the customization is just something I >feel< fits well for a character that has these two choice voice actors. Not like we can choose a physically different body type.
The game has Photomode and flashy clothing (not enough of, I think) that really encourages you to take your V on a photoshoot. I'm confident that it's here to stay and was intended from the very start.
In fact, I don't understand for what reason it would seem obvious to cut/remove the character creator
- If you don't care (First person view, you like "Base" V,...). You just pick the gender, a "base" V and you play like that.
- If you want a personalized V you can.
Basically everyone is happy... Honestly what could be better ?
I believe the argument is the point of a CC is to build and define a character as you wish. It's not improving a ton if it fails to be leveraged in the gameplay.
I could see it being a valid argument to some extent. You might build a character backstory and from that fill in visual/appearance related attributes, skill/perk/ability aptitude (early progression choices), etc. Fill in enough of those blanks and head canon up a character persona and and you got yourself your character. If you then think the gameplay itself fails to allow a reasonable range of expression, in a way where those choices you made matter, it brings into question why they're available in the first place.
On the flipside.... There are no freeform, completely player dictated characters in video games. You're always going to be limited in your ability to express that character in a way where it fits your head canon. Especially in anything narrative driven. Especially especially in anything with mocap, complex animations, voice-overs and all that fun stuff. This is not to say all are created equal. Some games have more in this area and others less.
I suppose it's best to think of it as a spectrum. A completely defined character handed to the player would be one extreme. Option two is toward the other end of the spectrum. A character the player has great ability to express as they see fit. Option 2 often has a lot of dials to tune to change the character as the player wishes. A fleshed out CC, progression choices, choices/consequences, etc. Option 3 falls in the middle of the spectrum. It's sorta defined but not completely.
Getting to the point.... No matter how defined that character may or may not be which is better? A CC where you can adjust the appearance of that character and dictate certain elements of their aptitude (progression)? Alternatively, the same character without the CC? To me the first option is "more". Regardless of how much the gameplay leverages any choices the player makes with the character.
From this perspective I think it's a little silly to say a CC is somehow "worse". It's like complaining a game is too long. "It was too long" is akin to complaining because the gas mileage on the vehicle is too good. It gets 40 mpg. That's too much. When you make your next car please ensure it gets 30 mpg. Yeah.... That's where we're at...
I'll go ahead and be that guy and extend that to constantly seeing the character in the game world. Open up your character screen. Your character is right there. Enter photomode. Hi character. Is it the same as seeing that character every second of your play? Nope. Is it more than never seeing them at all? You betcha. Would it be better if those options didn't exist? Hmmm....
Think of TW3, for example. Imagine the scene where Geralt finally finds Ciri on the Isle of Mists. The moment. Their reunion. The color palette. The music.
Thats immersion. You see V every time you go into your inventory. Dont need to see her outside of that.
Lack of resources wasnt a problem with the game.
I believe the argument is the point of a CC is to build and define a character as you wish. It's not improving a ton if it fails to be leveraged in the gameplay.
I could see it being a valid argument to some extent. You might build a character backstory and from that fill in visual/appearance related attributes, skill/perk/ability aptitude (early progression choices), etc. Fill in enough of those blanks and head canon up a character persona and and you got yourself your character. If you then think the gameplay itself fails to allow a reasonable range of expression, in a way where those choices you made matter, it brings into question why they're available in the first place.
On the flipside.... There are no freeform, completely player dictated characters in video games. You're always going to be limited in your ability to express that character in a way where it fits your head canon. Especially in anything narrative driven. Especially especially in anything with mocap, complex animations, voice-overs and all that fun stuff. This is not to say all are created equal. Some games have more in this area and others less.
I suppose it's best to think of it as a spectrum. A completely defined character handed to the player would be one extreme. Option two is toward the other end of the spectrum. A character the player has great ability to express as they see fit. Option 2 often has a lot of dials to tune to change the character as the player wishes. A fleshed out CC, progression choices, choices/consequences, etc. Option 3 falls in the middle of the spectrum. It's sorta defined but not completely.
Getting to the point.... No matter how defined that character may or may not be which is better? A CC where you can adjust the appearance of that character and dictate certain elements of their aptitude (progression)? Alternatively, the same character without the CC? To me the first option is "more". Regardless of how much the gameplay leverages any choices the player makes with the character.
From this perspective I think it's a little silly to say a CC is somehow "worse". It's like complaining a game is too long. "It was too long" is akin to complaining because the gas mileage on the vehicle is too good. It gets 40 mpg. That's too much. When you make your next car please ensure it gets 30 mpg. Yeah.... That's where we're at...
I'll go ahead and be that guy and extend that to constantly seeing the character in the game world. Open up your character screen. Your character is right there. Enter photomode. Hi character. Is it the same as seeing that character every second of your play? Nope. Is it more than never seeing them at all? You betcha. Would it be better if those options didn't exist? Hmmm....
I don't fail to realise that, I also never said she had to be a blanc slate for me to have an increased connection to the way how I want her to look
What you fail to realise I guess is that I prefer to look at an exterior for my V of my own design DESPITE her established personality.
Pretty much the opposite of how you view it, I refer to your view of Geralt, below. To complete it: I prefer to have my own created 'avatar' in any circumstance.
For the first part: see above, for the second part: not mutually exclusive.
In fact, I don't understand for what reason it would seem obvious to cut/remove the character creator
- If you don't care (First person view, you like "Base" V,...). You just pick the gender, a "base" V and you play like that.
- If you want a personalized V you can.
Basically everyone is happy... Honestly what could be better ?
What would be better is if the devs actually treated V as a character more visually rather than giving a worthless model swap in the game to self insert.
Wouldn't it be amazing to go to the "share your V' topic and see all V clones ? Oh, wait, probably this topic wouldn't even exist because it would be really boring.
Let's keep the conversations on the topic -- not on what we think others should or should not understand. Don't get personal, please.
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On the actual issue, I think the core distinction is a valid one. I also think that some comments are not clearly identifying the two, very different considerations:
1.) Character creation as it applies to gameplay. Meaning: what do I want to do as a player? What sort of character am I creating in my mind? What sort of personality and energy am I imagining, and how do I want to visualize it?
...which is a totally, absolutely, completely, and utterly different concern than:
2.) Character creation as it applies to the narrative. Meaning: what sort of person is V? Not the character the player is imagining -- the character that has been voiced, acted, and personified by the authors of the story. The character that must be visualized in a way that resonates with the action, the setting, the world, and the main themes of the story.
Tough call now, as a developer, as to how much freedom is given over the design. On the one hand, players obviously want to play their way. On the other, I need everything to blend into the strongly built narrative, or it may feel awkward. On the right, we want people to enjoy the gameplay and RPG aspects. On the left, I still need a framework that captures the vision of the story in a cohesive way.
So...yeah. I'd have to agree that customization options can very readily conflict with a strongly narrative experience. Whereas something like Destiny or Mount and Blade offers a lot more leeway with no factors that would distract from the experience. Think of TW3, for example. Imagine the scene where Geralt finally finds Ciri on the Isle of Mists. The moment. Their reunion. The color palette. The music.
Now imagine Geralt in that scene with a blue mowhawk haircut, green tights, and magic chain mail that sparkles with rainbow glitter.
This is exactly what I'm trying to tell everyone. The custom character doesn't have any place in the story as V is the protagonist, who has their own personality traits. It's not immersive to see a different character model there when these were the two optional characters that the marketing established.
One of the biggest allures of RPGs with customizable protagonists is the fact that you can create whatever character you want. They can be any gender, any race you want and you can roleplay them in whatever way you choose (though limits do exist). Set protagonists limit that possibility even more, because at best their actions and responses are limited to fit predefined personality.
In Cyberpunk's case V being a customizable player character is a massive bonus because the game's story is a more personal one. Some people can connect with V and that kind of story better because they're playing a character they created. That kind of connection would be lost for a lot of people if V was a set protagonist.
Shepard has default appearances for marketing purposes. Can't promote these kind of games with a faceless blob.
Geralt is great. Long live the witcher bro, but I love character creation. Cyberpunk is limited in this aspect but I don't even care cause I had a lot of fun customizing him with his limited customization. I made a dude. You can look at my profile pic. He looks weird. He had bluuuuue haaaair. I see my character in cutscenes and I love it. It's great. I appreciate the weird color eyes. I could critique aspects of character creator but I'm not gonna make this post too long. I'd prefer there to be the character creation plain and simple.
I do admit, your character is pretty weird, and don't see any of the characters in the story actually taking the character seriously, but video game logic.
I believe the argument is the point of a CC is to build and define a character as you wish. It's not improving a ton if it fails to be leveraged in the gameplay.
I could see it being a valid argument to some extent. You might build a character backstory and from that fill in visual/appearance related attributes, skill/perk/ability aptitude (early progression choices), etc. Fill in enough of those blanks and head canon up a character persona and and you got yourself your character. If you then think the gameplay itself fails to allow a reasonable range of expression, in a way where those choices you made matter, it brings into question why they're available in the first place.
On the flipside.... There are no freeform, completely player dictated characters in video games. You're always going to be limited in your ability to express that character in a way where it fits your head canon. Especially in anything narrative driven. Especially especially in anything with mocap, complex animations, voice-overs and all that fun stuff. This is not to say all are created equal. Some games have more in this area and others less.
I suppose it's best to think of it as a spectrum. A completely defined character handed to the player would be one extreme. Option two is toward the other end of the spectrum. A character the player has great ability to express as they see fit. Option 2 often has a lot of dials to tune to change the character as the player wishes. A fleshed out CC, progression choices, choices/consequences, etc. Option 3 falls in the middle of the spectrum. It's sorta defined but not completely.
Getting to the point.... No matter how defined that character may or may not be which is better? A CC where you can adjust the appearance of that character and dictate certain elements of their aptitude (progression)? Alternatively, the same character without the CC? To me the first option is "more". Regardless of how much the gameplay leverages any choices the player makes with the character.
From this perspective I think it's a little silly to say a CC is somehow "worse". It's like complaining a game is too long. "It was too long" is akin to complaining because the gas mileage on the vehicle is too good. It gets 40 mpg. That's too much. When you make your next car please ensure it gets 30 mpg. Yeah.... That's where we're at...
I'll go ahead and be that guy and extend that to constantly seeing the character in the game world. Open up your character screen. Your character is right there. Enter photomode. Hi character. Is it the same as seeing that character every second of your play? Nope. Is it more than never seeing them at all? You betcha. Would it be better if those options didn't exist? Hmmm....
Saying that you've supported your opinion with evidence and examples and how it's not based on personal preference doesn't make others' opinions any less valid. Anyone can bring up evidence and examples and say it's not based on their preference. It's not rocket science, some people like xyz and others don't. Nothing wrong with that, but implying that it's wrong/useless is just your preferences speaking up. Wanting something to be right is nothing new, if you don't like character creation in a narrative driven RPG (however you want to define that genre, most games are a cluster of genres after all ) then play a narrative driven RPG that has a predefined character. It's really simple. Stop making the rules, if the devs want character creation in their game, then so be it. It's still a narrative driven RPG.
It's not narrative driven if the protagonist is represented in a way that doesn't support the narrative in the game. V is treated as much of a character as Jackie, Panam, Judy, and others. V's character model has just been switched ruining the scene.
its an interesting take, but it comes down to that you prefer a predefined protagonist, whereas V is less a of a predefined character. The char customization is an extent of the same philosophy. So there are probably a lot of things that irk you about this game. As far as marketing, generally I think its easier as you say with specific characters, but at the same time I don't think cyberpunk's marketing ability is really in doubt, they had a hugely successful launch sales and presales if nothing else.
I don't think the game would be improved by a more fixed protagonist, as one of my favorite parts was creating and playing out a char concept and least favorite parts was when the game took more control of the character identity.
Also... a side note, V can look like a model if you want, but what if panam isn't driven by our world's definition of beauty, or doesn't really focus on appearance at all? She's a nomad in an alternate future with cyberware, body mods, etc. Probably not looking for the same visual's you might be.
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I agree with most of what you said, but I ve seen no evidence the game was ever supposed to have three dif story branches. ever since they announced the new lifepath concept, it has been dialog options and background. Before that it was disparate facts about the character without a cohesive story, so it probably would lead to different interactions/quests within the same overall story.
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same can be said of every computer and console rpg in existence. You just prefer the limited range of outcomes provided in other games maybe.
Note that in devil ending, you chose to ask for treatment from a cold corporate entity. What variation do you expect. You checked yourself into a hospital and treatment facility with a predetermined way of doing things, at that point there is only two realistic choices, accept it or throw a tantrum. If you don't like those options, you can choose a different choice before you go there.
Just because you want something doesn't mean it has a place in the game.
A lot of people wanted Cyberpunk to have GTA-style sandboxing, are we going to start arguing that its absence is a flaw with Cyberpunk just because people wanted it?
I don't find it pointless. I'm simply observing that character creation doesn't work in the creative mold of Cyberpunk as a narrative-driven action game, just as many other potential gameplay systems also wouldn't be a good fit. There are a lot of fun game mechanics out there that don't necessarily have a place in every game.
For character customization specifically, a customizable character isn't necessarily better or worse. Geralt is generally agreed to be an effective protagonist, and the Witcher series has been praised for both characterization and storytelling. It's a very popular game.
Finally, being able to customize your character in Cyberpunk may help you feel more of a connection to the protagonist only because they are more of a blank slate to begin with. This is opposed to, again, Geralt in the Witcher, who has a more defined personality and character that makes him more relatable from the outset.
I would argue that the narrative would be more effective if V had a more concrete background and personality, similar to the Witcher. Perhaps they could differentiated by the life path in terms of appearance and character traits (available dialogue options) which would provide some degree of player choice, but more in line with the style of the rest of the game.
This is exactly what I've been saying. V will appear differently in each lifepath. In the Nomad lifepath, V appears like he does in all the cinematic trailers. He's dirty, looks tired. Then Corpo V will have clean and has plenty of hygiene.
do you feel the same about Skyrim, fallout 4, etc? a lot of games have deep stories while having the player create the main character.
Just asking because I want to see through your eyes and learn something ( another point of view )
You're entitled to your opinion but your 'v''s do not fit into any of my 'v''s.. well maybe the male into my corpo rifleman soldier but the rest of my 'v's are all different. Am I not allowed this? Are you saying I am playing it wrong? What's wrong with me wanting to play a japanese, honour-bound, katana-wielding corpo 'v'?
This is exactly what I've been saying. V will appear differently in each lifepath. In the Nomad lifepath, V appears like he does in all the cinematic trailers. He's dirty, looks tired. Then Corpo V will have clean and has plenty of hygiene.
It's your own vision, my Nomad V is pretty clean and nice (for me at least)
Just because we're from the Badlands doesn't mean we have to look like a trash...
(when you play, the Badlands are way far behind us... like 6 months ago)
Same thing, for you certainly.
For me (I'm certainly not alone), I think character have his place, it's as simple as that.
And unfortunately for you (maybe) and luckily for me, it's in the game and it will still in it
You're entitled to your opinion but your 'v''s do not fit into any of my 'v''s.. well maybe the male into my corpo rifleman soldier but the rest of my 'v's are all different. Am I not allowed this? Are you saying I am playing it wrong? What's wrong with me wanting to play a japanese katana wielding corpo 'v'?
This is exactly what I've been saying. V will appear differently in each lifepath. In the Nomad lifepath, V appears like he does in all the cinematic trailers. He's dirty, looks tired. Then Corpo V will have clean and has plenty of hygiene.
It's your own vision, my Nomad V is pretty clean and nice (for me at least)
Just because we're from the Badlands doesn't mean we have to look like a trash...
Same thing, for you certainly.
For me (I'm certainly not alone), I think character have his place, simply as that.
And unfortunately for you (maybe) and luckily for me, it's in the game and it will still in it
It'd be more fitting and immersive if V was dirty and roughed up considering they lived in the Badlands for a while. Plus after they get to Night City they can get more hygiene after years living in the slums.
It'd be more fitting and immersive if V was dirty and roughed up considering they lived in the Badlands for a while. Plus after they get to Night City they can get more hygiene after years living in the slums.
If I understand, Nomad have to look "dirty", Corpo have to look "clean", Street Kid maybe other thing...
So for have that, you MUST use the character creator, sound ironic, isn't it
Ok, Cyberpunk finds a place in 2077 where people look like they want to look. One of the reasons I played the Witcher 3 only once was because I played Geralt. Here I play my V and for 90% of the time, I can play the game according to my personal taste.
I hope that they will expand the character customization.
My latest 'v' is a valentino, Streetkid, dagger wielder,.. Arrogant, loyal to his friends, weakness to females, . I've had options where I can ask why did you choose me,.. I ignore these.. I know why they chose me, I've had options come up which say I am the best.. I choose these. weakness to females, I agree to side with evelyn, I go after judy however hopeless it is, I avenge jackie, I let takemura die, his usefulness is over, During sinnerman I believe in god, I try to do the right thing well, to an extent, more modelling his spirituality after padre. I'll skip river, his problems are not mine, same with the parelzez.. I'll pick and choose options and quests as befits.., he'll have one of those flashy 6-wheelers,.. I am unsure how I will react to johnny yet,.. but I already know I wont give up my body. I'll pick and choose and each time I have done this the game has given me a good concise story
My latest 'v' is a valentino, Streetkid, dagger wielder,.. Arrogant, loyal to his friends, weakness to females, . I've had options where I can ask why did you choose me,.. I ignore these.. I know why they chose me, I've had options come up which say I am the best.. I choose these. weakness to females, I agree to side with evelyn, I go after judy however hopeless it is, I avenge jackie, I let takemura die, his usefulness is over, During sinnerman I believe in god, I try to do the right thing well, to an extent, more modelling his spirituality after padre. I'll skip river, his problems are not mine, same with the parelzez.. I'll pick and choose options and quests as befits.., he'll have one of those flashy 6-wheelers,.. I am unsure how I will react to johnny yet,.. but I already know I wont give up my body. I'll pick and choose and each time I have done this the game has given me a good concise story
Yet, the player will feel detached from the story and V, because of a glorified model swap.
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Here's the problem: V is a character to. Your character simply swapped models with V and looks out of place.
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So self insert method? Why am I not surprised by that argument?
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What would be better is if the devs actually treated V as a character more visually rather than giving a worthless model swap in the game to self insert.
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Barely. Doesn't change the character at all in anyway. It's just a glorified model swap.
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That post wouldn't exist if the game didn't have character creation. Seems more like something for multiplayer than a single player narrative RPG.
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This is exactly what I'm trying to tell everyone. The custom character doesn't have any place in the story as V is the protagonist, who has their own personality traits. It's not immersive to see a different character model there when these were the two optional characters that the marketing established. View attachment 11232772
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Maybe, but what are people going to see when they hear V?
View attachment 11232775
These two obviously. This is how the story views these characters. A glorified model swap ruins the tone of the story.
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I do admit, your character is pretty weird, and don't see any of the characters in the story actually taking the character seriously, but video game logic.
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More resources could've been put to more important things that character creation.
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And imagine seeing Meredith Stout inviting someone that looks like a clown to her apartment for some action. Nobody would take the scene seriously.
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It's not narrative driven if the protagonist is represented in a way that doesn't support the narrative in the game. V is treated as much of a character as Jackie, Panam, Judy, and others. V's character model has just been switched ruining the scene.
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And what does Panam call V? V. That's what she names them, and who is V? These two.View attachment 11232781
V is not anyone, you prefer a predefined visual. There is nothing about V's voice, acting, or character that attaches to those visuals other than the fact you think of them that way. This is not how the actors look, its not who the writer's wrote. V is not even the same person inside the game, so how could they only have one possible visualization.
So that's a....silly topic, really I don't understand how can someone believe that character creation makes any game worse. I keep trying to imagine the witcher 3 (or 1/2) with a custom character instead of Gerald and....I don't think it will make the game worse? In fact, for some people (like me), it will only make the game better.
What would be better is if the devs actually treated V as a character more visually rather than giving a worthless model swap in the game to self insert.
...as a side note, every studio/game dev will love you, since you will spare them so much work... Are you actually arguing for one set of clothes? Because from your posts it seems you do
Story doesn't view these characters in any particular way. To use TW3 as an example: Ciri comments on Geralt's scar, Yennefer on his beard, dozens of other characters do the same regarding his white hair and cat eyes. Cyberpunk and V doesn't have that.
As for sound of his/her voice and appropriate face, well, nothing in the world can ever look as fitting as these:
Default V is still a glorified model swap of the real thing.
As personally disappointed as i was with the character creator, I still love when they have character creation and customizations in games. If i can't get behind the character (either appearance, personality, playstyle, etc), i have a really hard time getting into the game. More so, if i'm supposed to be doing multiple playthroughs of it. If anything, i would LOVE if they started adding MORE to the character creator, as they fix the game and keep patching it. I know games that are pretty dead, and people still love and use them *JUST* for the character creator. It's a great way add more investment to said character and their role in the game.
