Levels and level scaling?

[Dune2077]

As a general question, what are levels like in 2077?

Personally, I love the level scaling in the Witcher 3! It's the only way I play the game, it contributes a consistent challenge, always keeps me attentive and prevents me from getting overconfident.
Will Cyberpunk 2077 have level or gear scaling in some form? If not now or at launch, is it feasible to implement it in the game's future?

 

[Gynckies]

As a general question, what are levels like in 2077?

Personally, I love the level scaling in the Witcher 3! It's the only way I play the game, it contributes a consistent challenge, always keeps me attentive and prevents me from getting overconfident.
Will Cyberpunk 2077 have level or gear scaling in some form? If not now or at launch, is it feasible to implement it in the game's future?

I also liked the level scaling in TW3, my only gripe in the game was that some enemies would be way more difficult than others in an "immersion breaking" kind of way. Monsters in the Blood and Wine DLC being more powerful and challenging that Main Story boss fights were something that also felt off to me. I hope the Level scaling in CP2077 is present not as bloated as TW3's.

 

[gregy741]

how can you love level scaling?hate level scaling. and loot scaling.nothing worse than that.maybe cancer is worse.
thats why i loved morrowind and cannot stand skyrim.
dumbed down thing for nerds

 

[Dune2077]

I liked level scaling because lesser enemies were still threats, the real challenges came from more complex enemies. I attribute the terrible implementation of level scaling in Skyrim to the lack of complex mechanics and complex enemies. In my experience it prevented me from feeling like an unstoppable monster killing machine and more like I had to take the game seriously.

As for gear scaling, I was referring to weapons still being deadly at high levels. A gun at a low level and a gun at a high level are still a gun.

 

[gregy741]

I liked level scaling because lesser enemies were still threats, the real challenges came from more complex enemies..

but lack of challenge from lesser enemies in later stage of the game gives you feel of progression.and further challenge should come from facing higher type of enemies.
scaling feels artificial and brakes immersion.i like situations in which i was totally destroyed by enemies in certain area,it then gives me more motivation to get better gear and came back to the place and beat them.it adds to feeling of adventure.and realism.
scaling means that you pick a perk and ,lets say get 20 % stronger and then automatically enemies gets 20% stronger..its rubbish.
flipping skyrim fighting same skeletons, only with bigger stats over and over.

 

[Tuco]

As a general question, what are levels like in 2077?

Personally, I love the level scaling in the Witcher 3

I hated it fiercely.
Well, actually even before hating the level scaling, I hated the mere fact that there were levels in the first place.
They didn't add shit to the the underlying mechanics and they sort of were there just because "RPGs need levels, right?".
Ironically, they also caused most of the problems that made level scaling a (poor) necessary workaround solution.

if the progression system in TW3 would have relied only on unlocked talents (without stat inflation at each level up) and if equipment scaled up in power far less steeply, we wouldn't have to deal with "grey" main quests for most for the campaign and with absurdities like "SCARY GIANT GOLEM LVL 6" replaced 20 hours later by "Street robber LVL 46".

 

[doolydeath]

I don't think level scaling is necessary at all. Good progression (combat-wise) should make you feel like you're better equipped for dealing with situations, sorta like unlocking abilities in dishonored or something. This obsession with the numbers game I think is over complicating things and will have to be shed eventually for RPG video games to become more immersive.

 

[gregy741]

I don't think level scaling is necessary at all. Good progression (combat-wise) should make you feel like you're better equipped for dealing with situations, sorta like unlocking abilities in dishonored or something. This obsession with the numbers game I think is over complicating things and will have to be shed eventually for RPG video games to become more immersive.

..unfortunately,developers cannot make game without scaling loot and opponents to your level.
too much risk of braking gameplay if done incorrectly. player might become OP if too lucky with loot
or if unlucky,continue to walk into areas that enemies are too powerful thus making gameplay frustrating ect.
i hate scaling but is there a way around it ,to make this work?

 

[BaalNergal]

I hate level scaling. But, that does not mean you cannot implement levels.

Just have it so that levels don't increase your stats/health, but merely give you perk and skill points. You want to increase your health? You have to give up some of that investment in being able to shoot the wings off a fly while blindfolded and drunk. Want to increase your carrying capacity? No advanced vehicle training this level! But make it so it's small increases over where you started.

Then enemies don't have to scale to your level.

 

[Gynckies]

..unfortunately,developers cannot make game without scaling loot and opponents to your level.
too much risk of braking gameplay if done incorrectly. player might become OP if too lucky with loot
or if unlucky,continue to walk into areas that enemies are too powerful thus making gameplay frustrating ect.
i hate scaling but is there a way around it ,to make this work?

I also feel like the idea of a gun being "As is", and if one wants more umph they need a bigger gun, leaves a game rather boring. I felt that way in Fallout games. Doesn't matter how much modding I did on a rifle, it was the same gun, and after 100+ hours it doesn't help fight off the boredom.

 

[Dune2077]

scaling means that you pick a perk and ,lets say get 20 % stronger and then automatically enemies gets 20% stronger..its rubbish.

Scaling to your level means lower-level enemies scaling up to your level's number, not your statistics or modifiers. Some builds in TW3 were still strong in level-scaling mode, enemies just had a higher threat floor instead of being absolute cannon fodder at high levels.

Good progression should make you feel like you're better equipped for dealing with situations, sorta like unlocking abilities in dishonored or something. This obsession with the numbers game I think is over complicating things and will have to be shed eventually for RPG video games to become more immersive.

In TW3 you still got skills and perks for leveling up, you got more complex and diverse as you leveled up. Enemies didn't get left in the dust in terms of health or damage with level scaling on, you just became a more skilled fighter or had more means at your availability.

 

[ac01yte]

Level scaling is one of the first things I mod out of a game, if it has it. Hate it with a passion.

- Shane

 

[gregy741]

Scaling to your level means lower-level enemies scaling up to your level's number, not your statistics or modifiers.

which is exactly the same! higher level number mean -higher stats!!!
gosh i remember skyrim.first day .level 1 ,i fight skeleton level one..200 hours later am lev 58 fighting the same skeleton level 58...horror
at some point ,they were stronger than them pony dragons..what a nonsense

 

[Gynckies]

In hindsight, what about a system like how Pillars of Eternity does. Where an item can be a "militech shotgun mk-4" but have 4 levels of quality. "Degraded, Fine, Superb, exceptional". The stats will change a little, as gear is better quality. Then you can use that as a system for "level advancement" outside of skills.

 

[Dune2077]

which is exactly the same! higher level number mean -higher stats!!!
gosh i remember skyrim.first day .level 1 ,i fight skeleton level one..200 hours later am lev 58 fighting the same skeleton level 58.

Yes, of course the stats get higher. They get higher for the enemy, they scale up to what an enemy at your level would be, not to what your actual statistics are. They don't get your damage output, or your armour, or your resistances. They get stronger for their individual enemy type.

I think we should stop using Skyrim as an example for level scaling, that game is bare-bones enough when it comes to combat, enemy variety and tactics.

 

[gregy741]

. Enemies didn't get left in the dust in terms of health or damage with level scaling on, you just became a more skilled fighter or had more means at your availability.

but they should be left in the dust.thats the point and sense of making progression.
you wanna struggle with some level 67 wolves in the woods at 67 level?where is and sense or reality in this?

 

[Tuco]

In TW3 you still got skills and perks for leveling up, you got more complex and diverse as you leveled up. Enemies didn't get left in the dust in terms of health or damage with level scaling on, you just became a more skilled fighter or had more means at your availability.

Well, that's precisely why levels were pointless. You already got more powerful unlocking talents, plus you had a lot of gear to add to your capabilities.
What was the point to add even some stat scaling at each level on top of that? It didn't help the game in any way and if anything introduced only more problems in term of balance.

Now imagine:
- removing this sort of stat boost at level up and leaving in the game just the ability to unlock/spend talent points.
- dialing down the stat scaling on weapons as well. There's no need to start with a sword that deals 20-23 dmg and end the game with a sword capable of doing 475-600 dmg. An end game weapon doing 6X the initial damage at most would be more than enough.
- more "sidegrades" than upgrades: a lot of equipment could offer alternate-but-equivalent bonuses rather than just ramping up numbers at every chance (horizontal growth over vertical growth, so to say.)

You would now have a game that suffered far less from trivializing low level content, that wouldn't need any artificial scaling to solve the issue your system was creating in the first place, that would be inherently more suited for a non-linear approach to exploration and quest solving (while still having areas visibly tougher than others), etc, etc.

On top of that, you could also take the chance to make your world feel more "useful" and rewarding to explore in every small corner, with a couple of tricks:
- equipment, materials and herbs would now be more rare (if not even unique) but also more valuable, so you could encourage the player to explore that dark cave apparently pointless just to find that herb he needed for a powerful potion.
- displace around the map more "places of power" as reward for exploring some areas and defeating some monsters. These places of power would reward you with all the talent points you aren't getting anymore by merely leveling up.

In the end you'd have a game inherently more balanced, while still retaining a CLEAR sense of progression and the feeling you were getting stronger/more versatile over time.
Bonus point: inventory management would also be implicitly tuned down a lot. No more picking up shit every two literal steps in the game world, just to realize that the almost totality of it is literal vendor trash.

 

[ac01yte]

How about a Shotgun is dangerous - if you get hit. I find the "leveled equipment" extremely immersion breaking. The magical "legendary" stuff from Fallout 4 was annoying to say the least.

I'd rather have experienced, tough character's in late game where low level thugs are not dangerous - preferably with our street cred meaning that they know it too, and back off. The challenge comes from the fact that the jobs you're expected to pull don't use these guys as muscle. You go up against much more dangerous enemies.

- Shane

 

[Tuco]

How about a Shotgun is dangerous - if you get hit. I find the "leveled equipment" extremely immersion breaking. The magical "legendary" stuff from Fallout 4 was annoying to say the least.

While I agree and I share the dislike for leveled gear, we were already discussing equipment and itemization in another thread:
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/a-so-far-minor-concern-about-itemization.10970975/

This one is mainly about levels for the character progression.

 

[ac01yte]

While I agree and I share the dislike for leveled gear, we were already discussing equipment and itemization in another thread:
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/a-so-far-minor-concern-about-itemization.10970975/

This one is mainly about levels for the character progression.

I was replying to this one:

In hindsight, what about a system like how Pillars of Eternity does. Where an item can be a "militech shotgun mk-4" but have 4 levels of quality. "Degraded, Fine, Superb, exceptional". The stats will change a little, as gear is better quality. Then you can use that as a system for "level advancement" outside of skills.

But you're right. it's off topic.

I'm of the opinion that there should be no level scaling. Different areas may be too dangerous for a low level character to go into, and other areas are really easy for high level characters.

IMO, level scaling is like running on a treadmill - you've run for miles but really are in the same spot.

- Shane