Level-scaling ability checks: why?

[akaddk]

Generally if I've encountered an "N/N+1" ability check that locks me out of that option, if it wasn't an option I cared about then I rolled my eyes at the entire concept of locking players out of literally enjoying the game's options and just accepted that as a tired CRPG mechanics trope that refuses to die.

But then I encountered Wilson and the Shoot to Thrill quest. Now, I don't care about shooting. I find it tiresome in most games and although I do like the 'smart' option, I mostly ignore it. And thankfully this game allows me to fucking pwn with QH's. Netrunners are by far the scariest concept I can think of. People who can literally look at you and in half a second, you're dead or writhing in agony, is not a world I want to live in but it's hella fun to play as. Guns can't hold a candle to that in any universe.

Sorry, I digress.

Point is, Ref is my dump stat. But I feel sorry for the guy. He seems like a choom. I wanna help him out. So I do this quest and, spoilers, at the end you get a Ref based option to ask if he's okay. So... a really basic level of empathy requires you to... be quick on your feet? Limber of limb? ADHD (I'm allowed to say that as an AuDHD'er, I have a card and everything)?

This upset me. And so I went back to a later save and decided to wait until I could bump my Ref up to the required amount so I could ask how he's doing and help a choom out.

So, 51st level and I finally have 7 Ref. Nope. Now it's 10 Ref that's needed. What. The. Ever. Loving. Fuck?

My question is, why? How does this make sense from a gameplay enjoyment perspective? What does it actually add to the enjoyment of the game to have this mechanic in it where you're constantly shifting goal posts? What actual purpose is it even designed or meant to serve?

I can understand that my frustration and borderline anger could be considered an unintentional side-effect of this mechanic, but even disregarding that, I still can't grok the basic design goal or philosophy behind implementing such a mechanic. It literally makes no sense to me whatsoever. It doesn't seem to accomplish anything other than locking players out of an option for no rational reason. I need it explained to me like I'm a five year old AuDHD'er.

 

[SombreLune1985]

It's nothing more than a bad choice from CDR. Before 2.0, ability checks weren't scaling.

 

[akaddk]

It's nothing more than a bad choice from CDR. Before 2.0, ability checks weren't scaling.

Sure, but that doesn't explain the why of it. Like, there would've been meetings where this was discussed and approved before being developed and implemented. There had to be some sort of logic for it and I genuinely can't see how anyone could argue favourably for it, especially not when it's costing time and money.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I need it explained to me like I'm a five year old AuDHD'er.

See 'lil akaddk, that's a toughie, CDPR made a weird decision and it hurt all the little friends very much. No likey-like. Very weird. Even adults don't understand!

What?

You asked.

 

[akaddk]

You asked.

I respect that you respected my request.

Even if it was condescending as fuck...

 

[GrimReaper801]

I respect that you respected my request.

Even if it was condescending as fuck...

Nothing condescending about it.

How else do you explain something like that, something that no one understands, to a five year old AuDHD'er?

Let's make a game out of it! C'mon people! Give us your best shot at explaining this!

 

[akaddk]

Let's make a game out of it! C'mon people! Give us your best shot at explaining this!

I blame myself.

Another approach could be from the perspective of formal rhetoric where you need to argue against your own argument in order to not only strengthen your argument, but also understand it and other perspectives better.

And I genuinely can't come up with a reason for this mechanic, hence the thread.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I blame myself.

You did ask!

Another approach could be from the perspective of formal rhetoric where you need to argue against your own argument in order to not only strengthen your argument, but also understand it and other perspectives better.

I find the idea of trying to find a way to explain this to a five year old far more entertaining!

And I genuinely can't come up with a reason for this mechanic, hence the thread.

In all seriousness, no one can provide you with a valid answer. Even when 2.0 came out and a lot of people where arguing about whether the changes/additions were good, we all agreed that ability check scaling was a really weird and deplorable change.

At best it was a very poor attempt at creating "class restricted content" ... stopping Netrunners from acting like they're solos, or vice versa for example, throughout the game but what it ended up doing is locking people out of content/areas they had no logical reasons to be locked out of without any alternative.

Plenty of discussions were had on the subject over the last few months and they all ended the same way - everyone is confused by the change.

 

[cartlidge]

I can tell you why, why, because of level scaling,

you can go anywhere now after the initial zone, and the enemies scale with level. Imagine you went to the corporate plaza area first (one of the old high level zones) and all the mobs were fine, but suddenly you had ability checks of 15-20 to handle and none of your abilities were anywhere near that, The whole concept of go to whatever zone you want wouldn't work. I would say the idea needs improvement, not removing

 

[Hayashi.226]

If you're on PC there's a mod that reverts the checks to pre-2.0:

Attribute Checks De-Scaled

Removes the level scaling from attributes checks introduced in Update 2.0 and makes their difficulties be based on the skill tree's tiers instead.

www.nexusmods.com

 

[Netrunner2go]

I can tell you why, why, because of level scaling,

you can go anywhere now after the initial zone, and the enemies scale with level. Imagine you went to the corporate plaza area first (one of the old high level zones) and all the mobs were fine, but suddenly you had ability checks of 15-20 to handle and none of your abilities were anywhere near that, The whole concept of go to whatever zone you want wouldn't work. I would say the idea needs improvement, not removing

Well I would be rather locked out of certain areas at certain timeframes i can come back later than entirely always anywhere because of weird scaling… huh…

it’s like you need 20 body (reflex would make more sense but well) to counter Myers attack at the plane but only 15 to open a door some minutes later while she is massively impressed and asks for your ripper doc - skillchecks/skillcheck-logic in general just feel off since 2.0…

 

[DjSpyder]

This is a little bit of a side note....

But Reflex always felt to me like in "Skill Checks" at least it really functions more like a traditional "Perception Check" would but since there is no perception in this game reflex is the closest thing to it. At least that's my guess, because plenty of the speech checks about a plan being stupid, or something being out of place are all "Reflex" so I associate it with V's ability to perceive what's going on.

As for level Scaling, in some things it works, in others it doesn't and it's badly implemented here, I think level scaling for skill checks is the ONLY change they made in 2.0 that EVERYONE agrees on.

Personally Enemy level scaling can work, not to use a Games as a service game as a comparison but something like in the Division, where each district has a level range so if you're too weak you can't go there, but once you pass that level enemies scale so they're never more than 1-3 levels lower than you and not just one-shot kills. That works ok.... For ENEMIES.

Having a 10-skill check magically jump to a 15 because you played a little too much NEVER works IMO. I understand having things locked to class skills, but if something is a "Weak Lock" than anyone with a minimum skill level should be able to pick it... a weak lock doesn't get better because I learned more Netrunning.... it just doesn't work.

But to answer your question, No one knows why, it was a bad decision, and no explanation has been given, and what's worse is on missions that require a payment.... The payment amount scales with level, but for some reason, a reason I'm assuming is just an oversight and not a deliberate choice, at least I hope that's the case.... Rewards do not scale to level. SO, it's possible to lose money completing certain quests if you wait too long to do them.

I think this is the one thing we all hope gets reverted or at least adjusted before they officially end support and move everyone to Orion.

 

[Crimsomrider]

Nothing elaborate to explain here; it's just a dumb, meaningless and poorly thought-out feature that they shoved in for the purposes of trying to "prolong" the game or some stupid reason like that, while forgetting that they created an immersive first-person RPG in the first place.

It serves absolutely no purpose other than to intentionally f*** with the player's enjoyment of the story and block them out of certain paths and even choices.

Like this tiny example where I spend 40 levels and 63 hours of playing damn catch-up just so I can be sarcastic to the cops below V's apartment;

Spoiler

Truly a revolutionary gaming feature for an RPG, where your V is becoming dumber and dumber the more they level up.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Truly a revolutionary gaming feature for an RPG, where your V is becoming dumber and dumber the more they level up.

Imagine they would say it’s logical that V becomes dumper because the relic messes up his/her brain in your progression xD

 

[Zem]

If you're on PC there's a mod that reverts the checks to pre-2.0:

It doesn't, actually. What it does is make the skill curve for each difficulty class of skill check, a flat line.

In the original game, an "Easy" check in Watson might be skill 4 but an Easy check in City Center could be 9 or 10. With this mod, that Easy check is 4 everywhere in the game. In other words, this mod makes this on average MUCH easier to pass skill checks than the original game even. Though it does mean some early game checks you could easily pass before might be higher than you expect. Every camera will be skill 9 to crack, even in Watson at the beginning of the game. Turrets are skill 15. A few doors are skill 15 with this mod in Watson.

It will stop you seeing that same door's check go up all on its own, so in that respect, people might like it. But it's not how things worked pre-2.0. Back then, if you stopped pumping up Body or Tech, you'd eventually stop being able to open doors in the higher level, later game areas and quests. Because it was location based, rather than player-level based as it is now, things were generally easier to pass if you were playing the game in a completionist style. Because you were usually over-level for an area, you also tended to have more attribute points to spend, and could more easily keep up with skill checks.

For that reason, CDPR should relax the scaling curves. It used to be if you didn't take an attribute to 20, you only missed out on a few doors towards the end of the game. Now you can miss out on half of the Hard class doors in the game if you max level by mid-game. CDPR didn't account for that when implementing scaling. They also borked the monetary quest scaling, as we all know. So they have stuff to fix, but going back to flat skill checks isn't the answer. It's workable, but it results in mismatched skill checks vs. enemy levels.

 

[Tarille]

So... a really basic level of empathy requires you to... be quick on your feet

Reflex kind of encompasses "Perception" too.

Meaning someone with high reflexes stat will be more attentive and notice things like someone's body language, their microexpressions and inflexions in their voice.

Allowing them to pick up on people's dispositions, when they aren't overtly displaying it.

Though, if you must know, the reason Wilson is feeling a bit down is:

Spoiler: Wilson's feeling

No-one bought anything from him during the contest.

My question is, why?

I can only assume something regarding making your build feel more impactful by having you need to focus on stats to gain the benefit from the stats (Also providing replay value as you do different builds focusing on different stats to pass different skill checks)

As well as overall leaning into the freedom to go to anywhere at any time (Facilitated by the level scaling of enemies as opposed to static levels in specific districts)

Just with the caveat of being implemented horribly, with awful scaling and illogical applications. With this creating a slew of problems as a result where things are kind of just borked at times (Exacerbated by the low floor for skill checks, meaning you can start out the game with 4 in every stat and be passing all the skill checks you find only to then lose the ability to perform such feats by leveling up as they scale to beyond starting values)

Of course, the most logical solution would be to simply make "Easy, Medium and Hard" difficulty skill checks static and the same across the entire game. Making it more representative of "It takes X skill to perform this feat" rather than any arbitrary scaling (Be it the dynamic scaling of the current iteration or the static scaling from pre-2.0)

 

[akaddk]

Reflex kind of encompasses "Perception" too.

Yes, I know, hence the ADHD comment. I'd explain the connection but I don't want to.

 

[jshylkema]

I don't mind being locked out of certain parts of the game, from a roleplaying perspective. But then again I am a fan of CRPG's where you have to make choices that can make one playthrough entirely different than the other. It should feel natural and fitting to your role if done correctly, like in Baldur's Gate 3.

I agree that Cyberpunk has not always implemented it the right way, but it can otherwise be a great mechanic

 

[Nixilos]

Heavy metal...

 

[ExSteam]

Start off by saying you don't care about shooting.....
But you care about a guy who owns a gun store you just met....a choom.
Something don't add up. If you were being true to your character you wouldn't have gone to the gun shop for the competition to begin with.
As far as stat checks go, if I don't have the requirement I move on.
After 732 hours I haven't found a single check where it made me feel like I missed out on something.