Platform Discussion Thread

[edmondo]

Transform feedback Vulkan extension is just weeks away.

And here we go.

Khronos release the spec of VK_EXT_transform_feedback today with the Vulkan 1.1.88 update:
https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Docs/commit/0a7a04f32bd473bc7428efdbbbe132f33afad68c

Mesa patches for radv:
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/mesa-dev/2018-October/206910.html

Mesa patches for anv:
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/mesa-dev/2018-October/206926.html

Philip also updated DXVK git:
https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk/commit/6b5aa0b92866910b5fbbbeb12428c0e84c2c91ee

Edit: added radv mesa and DXVK links
Edit2: added anv mesa patches link

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Congrats!

Finally, time to play TW3

Post automatically merged: Oct 14, 2018

Rotfiends are working in TW3 thanks to stream output support:

Post automatically merged: Oct 14, 2018

Pretty interesting read about transform feedback in Vulkan by Intel graphics developer Jason Ekstrand.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Wine patches with VK_EXT_trasnform_feedback are now in Wine upstream, so no need to patch it manually anymore. Just build Wine master (and it should be available in Wine 3.19).

Post automatically merged: Oct 16, 2018

Nice to see pieces falling in place so quickly. As Jason Ekstrand from Intel graphics driver team wrote:

I must say, it's a lot of fun to be part of a massive coordinated release like today's release of VK_EXT_transform_feedback. In the last five hours, we've seen a Vulkan spec release, beta support branches in drivers for all three major desktop platforms, a DXVK release with streamout support, and a Proton release bundling it all together so users can start playing those tames TODAY on their favourite GPU.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Vulkan and Linux support added to EA's experimental Halcyon engine.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I haven't really followed any news about CP2077 lately. Were there any new technical details, like if they are using Vulkan or not?

 

[BaalNergal]

I haven't really follow any news about CP2077 lately. Were there any new technical details, like if they are using Vulkan or not?

They announced it's being reworked as a freemium iPhone collectible card RTS app

 

[Sardukhar]

They announced it's being reworked as a freemium iPhone collectible card RTS app

I'm quite excited by this.

I am interested in how they are going to handle 4K on the consoles. We have a PS4 now and RDR2 4K was crap, frankly.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

4K is a red herring, especially on consoles. First thing you want is a decent framerate. And when that's achievable - higher resolution.

Prevalent consoles which now ship with hardware that's already several generations behind current advancements, can't even handle 1920x1080 at 60 fps. How are they are going to handle it at 4K? That's just beyond ridiculous.

Let's say someone like Sony pushes out a new console using Ryzen 2 + Navi APU. I still highly doubt it will handle 4K at 60 fps, let alone at anything higher than that. Even high end desktop GPUs will still struggle with that.

 

[BaalNergal]

I am interested in how they are going to handle 4K on the consoles. We have a PS4 now and RDR2 4K was crap, frankly.

They're probably not. 4k is not exactly within range of what consoles or even most home computers can handle well.

 

[Sardukhar]

They're probably not. 4k is not exactly within range of what consoles or even most home computers can handle well.

Yeah, I'm not expecting miracles, but 30 FPS at 4K for Cyberpunk 2077 on a Pro would be a good goal.

4K on AC Odyssey on my PC was great! And apparently also on the Xbox One X. Dunno though, didn't see it there.

I don't need games at 60 fps at all, actually. I'm fairly happy at 30 and beyond, depending on the game. If it's a high-response game, sure, 60 is nice.

But I've played AC Odyssey on Ultra at 4K and dropped to 35 FPS ( usually hitting and still had a great time. High, I saw 60 fps pretty steadily.

So I don't agree the first thing I want is a 60 FPS framerate at all. Steady and smooth beats high and jumpy. Upper difficulties on God of War, you need steady or Sigrun will splat you. She will anyway, but even more so...

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

It's not going to be smooth, if it drops to 30 already. I'd say if it falls below 50 even - you need a better GPU to run on those settings. Something like adaptive sync can make it less noticeable.

 

[Sardukhar]

It's not going to be smooth, if it drops to 30 already.

Yes it is. Smooth as in, it stays at 30. Frame-jumps are an issue on high-response games like God of War. You're better off at a steady 30 FPS then 40-60. It'll mess with your timing on dodges and blocks.

Steady 60 is nice, sure, I use a 1080 TI and can hit that at 4K. But it's not so nice I like to give up the visuals at higher qualities.

This whole you-need-60-fps-or-bust is just not accurate. Some people may have decided they need that, but plenty of us are happy at a steady, locked 30 fps. Including most people who played God of War and had a great time.

 

[Snowflakez]

4K is a red herring, especially on consoles. First thing you want is a decent framerate. And when that's achievable - higher resolution.

Prevalent consoles which now ship with hardware that's already several generations behind current advancements, can't even handle 1920x1080 at 60 fps. How are they are going to handle it at 4K? That's just beyond ridiculous.

Let's say someone like Sony pushes out a new console using Ryzen 2 + Navi APU. I still highly doubt it will handle 4K at 60 fps, let alone at anything higher than that. Even high end desktop GPUs will still struggle with that.

Glad to hear someone else say this. I agree.

Console players, however, do not seem to give a damn about framerates, for whatever reason (most likely because they haven't been exposed to them). If the word 60 FPS is brought up around some of them, prepare to get metaphorically lynched on the spot.

60 FPS should be the new standard for upcoming consoles, in my opinion. They can have 4K, too, but they should give users the option. It would actually convince me to play more exclusives... as of now, I can't deal with it. I played RDR2 for a few days, then decided I'd just be happier waiting for it to come to PC so I don't have to deal with the sluggishness and motion blur.

Yes it is. Smooth as in, it stays at 30. Frame-jumps are an issue on high-response games like God of War. You're better off at a steady 30 FPS then 40-60. It'll mess with your timing on dodges and blocks.

Adaptive sync technologies solve this problem. And FreeSync is/has come to some TVs, I believe.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

60 FPS should be the new standard for upcoming consoles, in my opinion.

I'd prefer to have better AI, enviromental interaction and graphics with the new consoles' additional resources than having the same quality we have now but just at higher frame rates. I want to have a new generation of games, I want to say "wow, this was impossible on ps4", not "same stuff, higher fps". Both is impossible, consoles must not cost more than 500$, market is clear about that. I honestly wouldn't mind either to still have 1080p with better effects than 4k, but that's not gonna happen.

P.S. and this is particularly good for PC gamers as well, if consoles would focus only on higher fps, no real upgrade in gaming would be possible. So if you want higher fps or graphics, buy a powerful enough pc and enjoy it.

 

[Sardukhar]

I'd prefer to have better AI, enviromental interaction and graphics with the new consoles' additional resources than having the same quality we have now but just at higher frame rates.

Yep.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'd prefer to have better AI, enviromental interaction and graphics with the new consoles' additional resources than having the same quality we have now but just at higher frame rates. I want to have a new generation of games, I want to say "wow, this was impossible on ps4", not "same stuff, higher fps". Both is impossible, consoles must not cost more than 500$, market is clear about that. I honestly wouldn't mind either to still have 1080p with better effects than 4k, but that's not gonna happen.

P.S. and this is particularly good for PC gamers as well, if consoles would focus only on higher fps, no real upgrade in gaming would be possible. So if you want higher fps or graphics, buy a powerful enough pc and enjoy it.

Oh, I agree.

But that doesn't happen. Console gamers aren't saying "I'm accepting 30 FPS because I want better gameplay, better AI, etc." They are saying "I'm accepting 30 FPS because I want 4K." Which is fine. But these are separate arguments - yours and theirs.

What I'm saying is, FPS > resolution. Not FPS > better gameplay. If lower FPS meant better gameplay features, I'd take it (but then, I'd just play on PC so I can crank the settings down and get the best of both worlds). But until that actually happens, well...

Console makers and game devs alike are happy with slower progress, and instead choose to focus a lot of their efforts on boosting visuals to the point of photo-realism (and beyond). That isn't to say some studios don't innovate and try new things (I'd say CDPR is one of them), but the "big" ones don't.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Yes it is. Smooth as in, it stays at 30. Frame-jumps are an issue on high-response games like God of War. You're better off at a steady 30 FPS then 40-60. It'll mess with your timing on dodges and blocks.

If you guarantee it to never drop bellow 30 and cap at 30, sure you get steady 30. But constantness only guarantees lack of tearing. It's not the same as smoothness. The lower your framerate gets, the more you will start feeling the change of the frames. Smooth means you don't feel it at all, it's very fluid. Sure, you can say that human eye can't see individual frames changes after 24 Hz already. But smoothness perception is not the same as recognizing individual frames.

 

[Sardukhar]

Oh, I agree.

But that doesn't happen. Console gamers aren't saying "I'm accepting 30 FPS because I want better gameplay, better AI, etc." They are saying "I'm accepting 30 FPS because I want 4K." Which is fine. But these are separate arguments - yours and theirs.

What I'm saying is, FPS > resolution. Not FPS > better gameplay. If lower FPS meant better gameplay features, I'd take it (but then, I'd just play on PC so I can crank the settings down and get the best of both worlds). But until that actually happens, well...

Console makers and game devs alike are happy with slower progress, and instead choose to focus a lot of their efforts on boosting visuals to the point of photo-realism (and beyond). That isn't to say some studios don't innovate and try new things (I'd say CDPR is one of them), but the "big" ones don't.

I'd agree with this - and the laughable chance of getting serious innovation over prettier - but I don't agree that FPS>resolution. At a certain threshold, anyway.

I prefer lower FPS with higher resolution nearly every time. I will lose FPS to get that higher res before I turn down effects - and I'll turn down effects to keep that resolution.

I like the crispness.

@Gilrond-i-Virdan And I'm saying that at the 30 fps cap, a PS4 Pro renders smoothly at high action with minimal to no tearing or interruption of that fluidity.

It's pretty variable though. I have played games that render at 60 and up and it's felt less smooth than a steady render at 40 or 50. How engines deal with drops and shifts really varies and how they deal with v-sync also varies.

I do hate tearing and will probably get an Adaptive monitor, but it's expensive and I have a really nice 40 inch monitor right now that I don't want to downsize from.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate#Human_vision

Post automatically merged: Jan 2, 2019

Also, it's not a formal metric (smoothness) and as such is rather subjective and therefore can differ as a preference between people.

Tearing however is not subjective, but as I said above, it's a separate issue.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

What I'm saying is, FPS > resolution. Not FPS > better gameplay. If lower FPS meant better gameplay features, I'd take it (but then, I'd just play on PC so I can crank the settings down and get the best of both worlds). But until that actually happens, well...

we already have 4k on xbox1x, next gen consoles will be more powerful so no further sacrifices will be done for 4k. I really hope they won't start the "60 fps" marketing (numbers are easy to sell) otherwise next gen consoles will be absolutely useless and we won't play anything new until 2030...