Please accommodate both specialists and generalist builds

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The way they approach quest design in Cyberpunk 2077 is that they start with a single, general path, designed in such a way to make it possible for every character, regardless of their specializations, to still reach the goal. Then on top of that path they are adding alternate routes, side content and other things, which are dependent on specific character skills, build and equipment. Then those are being playtested by QA department, which in the process comes up with ideas for other paths and ways of completing the objective. In the end the game will be designed in such a way to make it possible to finish all the quests with general builds, while still offering an unique content for specialized builds.
 
The way they approach quest design in Cyberpunk 2077 is that they start with a single, general path, designed in such a way to make it possible for every character, regardless of their specializations, to still reach the goal. Then on top of that path they are adding alternate routes, side content and other things, which are dependent on specific character skills, build and equipment. Then those are being playtested by QA department, which in the process comes up with ideas for other paths and ways of completing the objective. In the end the game will be designed in such a way to make it possible to finish all the quests with general builds, while still offering an unique content for specialized builds.

That's certainly an appreciable way of going about it. Although, I kinda would've also wanted missions tailored for specific character archetypes, that are more or less out of the realm for other characters. So as to say that not every mission is possible for every character, that the player is not a "winner" no matter what.
 
That's certainly an appreciable way of going about it. Although, I kinda would've also wanted missions tailored for specific character archetypes, that are more or less out of the realm for other characters. So as to say that not every mission is possible for every character, that the player is not a "winner" no matter what.
I read there might be some unique sidequests connected to character backstory, but nothing about unique quests for specific archetypes so far. With those there is a risk of other players getting stuck, if they come across a quest which requires a specific skillset, but I guess those can be always locked behind a skill checks during dialogues, like for example having a guy who looks for skilled Netrunner, so in order to get the job, you need to impress him with your knowledge on the subject, which requires a Hacking skill at level 7 at least (let's say). That way people who don't have high hacking skills are informed out of the gate they won't be able to complete it anyway.
 
With those there is a risk of other players getting stuck, if they come across a quest which requires a specific skillset, but I guess those can be always locked behind a skill checks during dialogues, like for example having a guy who looks for skilled Netrunner, so in order to get the job, you need to impress him with your knowledge on the subject, which requires a Hacking skill at level 7 at least (let's say).

That's exactly what I mean. That the choice of characterbuild is merely about different "pathways" through the same missions. That there is a more indepth sense of uniqueness to it and a reward for pursuing it.

Similiar technique could also be used for uncommon skill combos, that - for example - you might need a certain level of both, hacking and heavy weapons to take on a certain mission.
 
Not going to read the whole thing... at least not in one go.

...you are now pushed to resolve encounters in the worst possible way for the character you built.
So, you want to build a character who is only specialized in ONE thing?

That's kinda silly isn't it? I mean, that character would be utterly useless in ANYTHING outside of his/her expertise. And most importantly, how is this character supposed to deal with unforeseen consequences and/or situations, that are outside said expertise? How about preparing for as much eventualities as possible?

I'll give you an example: I plan to play a fast talking V, so talking only. Yet, I have to take into account what happens when I mess up talking, or someone else messes up the talking, or when talking is not an option in the first place. Then shit hits the fan, I must be prepared for it, right? Sure, I could reload again and again, until I succeed in talking, but then I would just cheat out of the consequences of my own failing. How boring is that?

It's just like real life, but I guess a lot of people don't want real life in their games. Kinda sad, because it could add so much to games.
 
how do you build encounters that will both provide challenge to highly specialized builds and not immediately crush the jack-of-all-trades
Hey,
I think that one of the possible answers to all you described is to design the locations by their place in the world, not by when the player is supposed to get there.

If you want to hack an ice cream machine on the kids' playground, it should be super easy, but if you want to hack flying police car, it should be super hard.

By the way, now I wonder - it's the second universe from cdpr and one of the main characters is named Johny again.
Coincidence? I don't think so :) :disapprove:
 
So, you want to build a character who is only specialized in ONE thing?

That's kinda silly isn't it? I mean, that character would be utterly useless in ANYTHING outside of his/her expertise. And most importantly, how is this character supposed to deal with unforeseen consequences and/or situations, that are outside said expertise? How about preparing for as much eventualities as possible?

Well if you going to have your companions with you 90% of the time, they can fill skills and expertise you don't have, if i build strong melee fighter with good talk skill, but i don't have any hacking i would probably want companion who is good at that.
 
Huh? Sorry, I don't get it. English is not my native language, did I made a mistake?

There is currently no known way of making V better (or worst) at fast talking.
It made me laugh because the kind of character you wants to play is the same one as the one I used to want to play before I discovered that every V will have the same social ability.
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Well if you going to have your companions with you 90% of the time

Won't happens.
There is no real companion in this game, not in the way you may think in a Bethesda game for example. They will be story related and will not be there when the story doesn't need them.
 
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Won't happens.
There is no real companion in this game, not in the way you may think in a Bethesda game for example. They will be story related and will not be there when the story doesn't need them.

Well they did say that some time you will have one or more companions with you almost 90% of the time, i would like to play game almost 100% alone and take companions only when i need to do quest for them, i also would like if i need to have companions with me all the time to have full control over them in every way skills, perks, gears.

And i meant more like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Pillars or Pathfinder game since there your companions add their skill in dialogue or during game events.
 
Well if you going to have your companions with you 90% of the time, they can fill skills and expertise you don't have, if i build strong melee fighter with good talk skill, but i don't have any hacking i would probably want companion who is good at that.
Mh, I rather got the impression, that companions will only be a "every now and then" thing, and that we will be running alone most of the time. If I am not mistaken, they have said, that we won't be able to pick companions as we like, so nothing in the kinds of Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and such.

There is currently no known way of making V better (or worst) at fast talking.
It made me laugh because the kind of character you wants to play is the same one as the one I used to want to play before I discovered that every V will have the same social ability.
I am actually perfectly fine with it, as long they design dialogs in a way, that it depends on our own wits, instead of a number...
...I would be even in favor of dropping character-levels, skill-levels, perks, and anything that's just about increasing numbers, if the gameplay is properly designed around it.

I mean, increasing numbers is not what defines an RPG, in my opinion.
 
like in The Witcher, if the story calls for it, you will have a companion or two for a mission, but we don’t want to do a “companion system” where you’re never alone. In some quests you will be by yourself, in some you will have one person like Jackie or even a whole group, and in other quests you might be alone or with someone else depending on the choices you made. We really want to have it fit the story, so basically you’ll always have someone with you if we think it’ll be interesting. Like I said, it can also be dependent on the choices you made. Sometimes if you leave someone behind and it makes sense for the story for them to stay behind, we’ll do it. And another time they might catch up. Whatever works best in a situation.” that is from VGR and i am sure same was posted in one of companions threds here, but i can find it anymore, it sound like you will almost always have some companion with you.
 
like in The Witcher, if the story calls for it, you will have a companion or two for a mission, but we don’t want to do a “companion system” where you’re never alone. In some quests you will be by yourself, in some you will have one person like Jackie or even a whole group, and in other quests you might be alone or with someone else depending on the choices you made. We really want to have it fit the story, so basically you’ll always have someone with you if we think it’ll be interesting. Like I said, it can also be dependent on the choices you made. Sometimes if you leave someone behind and it makes sense for the story for them to stay behind, we’ll do it. And another time they might catch up. Whatever works best in a situation.” that is from VGR and i am sure same was posted in one of companions threds here, but i can find it anymore, it sound like you will almost always have some companion with you.
To me it sounds quite vague in terms of companions. It says nothing about the frequency we will have companions with us. It's right there:

"In SOME quests you will be by yourself, in SOME you will have one person like Jackie or even a whole group, and in OTHER quests you might be alone or with someone else DEPENDING ON THE CHOICES YOU MADE."
or
"...so basically you'll always have someone with you IF WE THINK IT'LL BE INTERESTING."

These are by no means bad news, cause it still sounds great, but in terms of companion frequency, it is basically nothing more then saying:

Sometimes, sometimes not...
 
That is problem, how much they will think is interesting for companions to be with you ?

And if they need to be with us i would like they fill skills and perks my character doesn't have, i would like more full companion system, than some broke system where they walk around us and do random stuff.
 
That is problem, how much they will think is interesting for companions to be with you ?

And if they need to be with us i would like they fill skills and perks my character doesn't have, i would like more full companion system, than some broke system where they walk around us and do random stuff.
Uhm... but walking around us and do random stuff is what they usually do in almost any companion system...
...sure, they offer the benefit of compensating for skills we don't have, but for what price?

In Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and many other games I played, companions usually were just following me, do whatever I tell them to, and to utter generic opinions every now and then. But I rarely, very rarely, had the impression that companions were actually invested into the mission/quest goal. I nearly never saw them actually act in cut-scenes in meaningful ways related to the mission/quest, aside from uttering their generic opinion that is.

CDPR's approach to companions would actually include them in meaningful ways, like having them act properly in cut-scenes, having them be invested into the missions goal, expressing emotions in context of the missions narrative, might even having them do stupid things, triggered by their emotional state, causing shit hitting the fan...

...instead of having them just there as mercenaries, who just follow because the player told them so.
 

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As I understood, V doesn't die, just ends up in the scrapyard and tries again, like the guy from Planescape.
 
So, you want to build a character who is only specialized in ONE thing?

That's kinda silly isn't it? I mean, that character would be utterly useless in ANYTHING outside of his/her expertise. And most importantly, how is this character supposed to deal with unforeseen consequences and/or situations, that are outside said expertise? How about preparing for as much eventualities as possible?

I'll give you an example: I plan to play a fast talking V, so talking only. Yet, I have to take into account what happens when I mess up talking, or someone else messes up the talking, or when talking is not an option in the first place. Then shit hits the fan, I must be prepared for it, right? Sure, I could reload again and again, until I succeed in talking, but then I would just cheat out of the consequences of my own failing. How boring is that?

It's just like real life, but I guess a lot of people don't want real life in their games. Kinda sad, because it could add so much to games.

Well, to go with your example of a fast talking V (disregarding whether this is actually a possible way to build your character in game): if you take "talking only" but still "must be prepared", you run the exact risk I am worried about. If you take "Fast Talking" to level 6 and "Handguns" to level 4 (just in case) and then run into a bunch of "Fast Talking 8" challenges, your mild focus on fast talking won't help you and you would be forced to resolve things with your fighting skills, which are not great since they are only meant for backup. If, on the other hand, you just maxed 1 of the two skills instead, you could either solve the encounter by passing the skill check or by fighting it out with your much improved combat skills.

From what we have seen, skills do not operate on a % chance system, so you either have the required skill level or you don't. If there are no "partial success" benefits to having say half the required skill level for a check, then you might as well not have put any points in the skill if it is not up to the level required. If every network in the late game requires maxed hacking skill to interact with, you either max the skill or you put nothing into it, as anything less than passing the skill check does nothing.
 
CDPR's approach to companions would actually include them in meaningful ways, like having them act properly in cut-scenes, having them be invested into the missions goal, expressing emotions in context of the missions narrative, might even having them do stupid things, triggered by their emotional state, causing shit hitting the fan...

From demo Jackie didn't do nothing special, he acted like any companion from witcher 3, and why would companion doing some stupid shit be good or fun for us in anyway?
 
Well, to go with your example of a fast talking V (disregarding whether this is actually a possible way to build your character in game): if you take "talking only" but still "must be prepared", you run the exact risk I am worried about. If you take "Fast Talking" to level 6 and "Handguns" to level 4 (just in case) and then run into a bunch of "Fast Talking 8" challenges, your mild focus on fast talking won't help you and you would be forced to resolve things with your fighting skills, which are not great since they are only meant for backup. If, on the other hand, you just maxed 1 of the two skills instead, you could either solve the encounter by passing the skill check or by fighting it out with your much improved combat skills.

From what we have seen, skills do not operate on a % chance system, so you either have the required skill level or you don't. If there are no "partial success" benefits to having say half the required skill level for a check, then you might as well not have put any points in the skill if it is not up to the level required. If every network in the late game requires maxed hacking skill to interact with, you either max the skill or you put nothing into it, as anything less than passing the skill check does nothing.
Can easily be solved, by having attributes/skills level up by doing their appropriate actions, similar to the Elder Scrolls games, or even GTA. That way the player can "train" his skills anytime he wants. That also seems to be what CDPR is going for. They have said, I think multiple times already, that we will be able to do training, like with the boxing dummy from the trailer or going to a gun range.
So, leveling up the attributes/skills will not depend on your story progression.
From demo Jackie didn't do nothing special, he acted like any companion from witcher 3, and why would companion doing some stupid shit be good or fun for us in anyway?
Jackie refused to sit, when they were at the gangs hideout, remember? He basically provoked the gangers, and the player got a dialog option to either tell him to sit, or to ask him what's wrong. For the demo they chose to tell him to sit, which calmed down the situation. But I wonder, what would happened with the other option, or maybe even saying nothing and just see how it plays out? But most importantly, Jackie behaved in context of the current situation, according to his character traits, which apparently includes some sort of... authority problem?
Don't know about you, but I find CDPR's approach much more appealing, because they show who the companions are...

...instead of just telling through boring dialog, where they just utter generic opinions. Think of Mass Effect 2, the damn whole cast of companions basically just sit around on the Normandy, mostly telling us who they are in lengthy dialogs between missions, and every single one of them just had a few, rare missions in which they actually did something at all.
Most of the time, they where just mindless mercenaries, just lending us their skills in combat, being easily replaceable with each other, cause they rarely had any impact on missions.
That's why I never got to the end, it was just soo boring. And I barely remember any companions. Aside from Garrus, cause his recruitment mission was really cool. Or Miranda and Jack, mostly because they had beef with each other, and Jack was kinda the most interesting character to me, because she had potential to cause trouble. The rest? I don't even remember their names...

...and Dragon Age, they pulled the same shit with companions, mostly sitting around camp, waiting for the player to start dialogs, and standing idle as mercenaries. I don't remember them at all.
 
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