Points of interest - world exploration ?

[0248991]

Hey,
to keep it short - in Witcher 3 there were (mini)map icons - like quest, point of interest, herbalist,... or anything really - to ease or navigate player in the world.

How would you like CP77 world to be ... "discovered" ?
Would you prefer not to have any navigation at all and to be more "immersed" when you find something, should there be at least some major locations pointed, or do you like to "skip" all the wastelands and just go for what "matters" ?
Or any combination of those ?

Additional question:
In witcher 3 there were some mechanics for what can point of interest be, there were side activities like horse racing, gwent, fist fights; there were boards for taking quests, there were witcher school armors spread around the world, there were fast travel signs, etc...
So...what mechanics of discovering - more of from the playthrough view - the world would you like to see; and what would you like to find there ?
What should be the hand crafted, manually placed details and what should be the more standardized findings ?

 

[Hoplite_22]

it's 2077, you should just be able to look things up then set your GPS, no need for map icons.

as for the world in general, expect it to be a lot smaller but massively more dense, things around every corner.

all the "bounty board" stuff should be done virtually, fast travel would just be splashing out on a sky cab

 

[Loostreaks]

Anyone who thinks this is good design ( for exploration), is completely missing the point of what it is all about.

The entire point of exploration is player discovery, "teasing" with visual and audio cues to pique his/her curiosity, and then letting the player take charge.

POI and Minimap turn it into a checklist, you already know where ? content is in the world, so you simply move from one to the next, to "clear the map".

It's baffling to see how developers fail at basic common sense and games like Zelda are praised for what everyone should be doing.

 

[Shavod]

I'm fine with POI being marked on the map, however I would much prefer for them to be implemented in a much more organic way then in The Witcher 3, where you basically read the notice board with mostly unrelated notices and then suddenly knew every noteworthy place in the area. Instead in Cyberpunk I would liked to see those POI appear on the map gradually, as you learn about those particular places by watching TV, reading newspapers, talking with NPC's, overhearing conversations between NPC's or by buying informations from fixers. So for example, when you hear one guy warning another about some thugs attacking bystanders in certain alley, then you get that alley marked on your map as POI in relation to that, or in the news they will be talking about Corporate ship, which blew up near the port, which would mark the wreckage' resting place where you can dive in in search of some goodies.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

In general I dislike hand holding approaches in this area. Before all of these conveniences were common you had to pay attention, not only to the quest info but game world feedback as well. Quest logs are fine as a reference point. Way-points, map markers, etc. are another matter. Getting too carried away with these can create a situation where the player doesn't have to pay attention or know what is going on to complete quests, navigate the game world, etc.

W3 handled this fairly well across the board, IMO. Particularly with the witcher sense mechanic involvement in quest progression. Most way-points and map markers merely pointed you in the right direction. From there it was up to the player to fill in the blanks.

W3 also handled non-discovered places well, IMO. If memory serves there was a toggle option to turn them on or off. Leaving this up to the player is a good idea because for initial play you can get that feeling of immersion and discovery. Later on, once you've spent your time exploring you can enable it to find content you may have been unable to experience otherwise. Content existing but never being seen by the player is likely one of the main reasons such options exist.

 

[Draconifors]

I wouldn't mind something similar to what Witcher 3 had: an optional ? system that could be toggled off entirely.

I very much dislike having everything laid out on a map, or even if it only shows up within a certain radius when exploring nearby areas. It's something I'll disable with mods if needed (and possible).

So what if I don't find everything? That just means I'll keep having new things to find in the future.
I know it's taken me hundreds, if not thousands of hours to find some POIs in Witcher 3 and even Skyrim... and I won't be surprised if I still stumble across new ones.

And THAT is what I enjoy the most, and think open world exploring is all about. Not following markers, but picking interesting looking areas on a map or simply wandering around without any real plan or route.

 

[AsadaShino0821]

Exploration point -------> icon (?)

 

[EngryEngineer]

I would love for off the grid type points of interest to be unlisted and "discoverable", but this is based on the future so all official businesses, landmarks, etc should all be listed, searchable, and have assisted navigation, because why would we go backwards? I love exploration for the sake of it, that's mostly what I do in games, but when I need to get to a specific location that I've either added because I had been there or it is an official store with a website and address listed on a thousand different indexes, I don't want to have to wander around trying to find it.

 

[Rawls]

I hope it works a lot like TW3 practically speaking. With optical scanners things like mini-maps have a easy in story explanation. I also hope you can choose to have them off, just like TW3. I always played TW3 with most of the HUD elements off, including the minimap and icons. They didn't have an in-game justification, so it made sense to turn them off. CP2077 is different, but it would still be nice to play without them if you (or your character) did want that.

 

[jorjett25]

I prefer the way Skyrim handled exploration, having major points of interest located on the map, but as you walk around locations are placed on the map AFTER you find them. This lead to new discoveries on every playthrough.

So instead of major cities, like let's say "Whiterun" being listed on the map, it would be the major corporations like Arasaka or Militech being listed. Everything else would have to be discovered before it's listed on the map, other than your apartment and necessary things such as that.

If memory serves me correctly, I believe part of the plot is that V is new to Night City and had just arrived, which could explain his lack of knowing locations.

I understand the argument that since it's the future, everything is online so I should know where everything is, but that's kind of boring. Exploring and finding new locations is half the fun.

 

[Suhiira]

A BIG problem with map markers is going to be verticality.
No clue how you're gonna handle that on a 2D map.
3D map?

 

[Rawls]

3D map?

It would make the most sense. Be able to rotate the map on multiple axes. Axes is the plural of axis right? Maybe? Sure.

 

[hallfing2080]

It would make the most sense. Be able to rotate the map on multiple axes. Axes is the plural of axis right? Maybe? Sure.

Sounds great on paper but The Division tried to do that and failed. The world was too big for them to adequately depict on a 3D map that spreads out around the player. I think a 3D map like the one from SKYRIM would make more sense.

 

[EngryEngineer]

Sounds great on paper but The Division tried to do that and failed. The world was too big for them to adequately depict on a 3D map that spreads out around the player. I think a 3D map like the one from SKYRIM would make more sense.

This is by no means a robust solution, but standard map coupled with visual overlay, so you check your map and see that you are in the right x/y coordinates, then use character's perception to see the AR flag to determine its more detailed position (including z coordinate). Ideally this is handled through tech in some way so it can be turned on or off depending on the desired level of masochism.

 

[Snowflakez]

Anyone who thinks this is good design ( for exploration), is completely missing the point of what it is all about.

The entire point of exploration is player discovery, "teasing" with visual and audio cues to pique his/her curiosity, and then letting the player take charge.

POI and Minimap turn it into a checklist, you already know where ? content is in the world, so you simply move from one to the next, to "clear the map".

It's baffling to see how developers fail at basic common sense and games like Zelda are praised for what everyone should be doing.

Believe it or not, some players enjoy the checklist/completionist stuff, especially when its actually engaging or interesting.

So, shouldn't be baffling at all. Devs put it in their games because people like it, not because they're idiots who don't know how game design works.

 

[Loostreaks]

Landmarks/Large buildings( also used for orientation for npc direction), yes that makes sense, but I'd still minimize it and leave compass and minimap entirely ( out of it). Or at least design it as very optional ( cyberware upgrade).

Thing is, it's important they nail the "feel" of urban chaos, there is danger( and opportunity) around every corner, keep your wits about you at all times. So player has to always pay attention to what's going on ( around him).

But if you immediately see Red points/Enemies 50 meters ahead of you and know their approx location, then what's the point of everything they said about First Person?.

Mike had an interesting answer on this: in First Person you're a soldier, not a general.

In other words: YOU make decisions from Direct audio/video feedback that environment gives you, you have to evaluate where something is...Compass or Minimap( even worse) makes this perspective pointless.

Post automatically merged: Aug 6, 2018

Believe it or not, some players enjoy the checklist/completionist stuff, especially when its actually engaging or interesting.

So, shouldn't be baffling at all. Devs put it in their games because people like it, not because they're idiots who don't know how game design works.

I don't mind if developers add an option for player who don't have time as more "vocal" fanbase.

But I don't see how it's a better design: isn't exploring far more rewarding when it includes element of surprise and has more player agency ( to it)?

When it feels more organic/natural: you're walking down the street, you suddenly hear a sound or notice something in the distance, and you want to see what it was?

Isn't that the whole point of open world games, in general: Immersion?

And today, when video games have drastically better audio design and detailed environments, it's paradoxical they don't use it to their advantage ( here).

 

[Rawls]

Or at least design it as very optional ( cyberware upgrade).

All HUD elements were option in TW3. I would imagine CP2077 would be similar in that regard.

 

[EngryEngineer]

Landmarks/Large buildings( also used for orientation for npc direction), yes that makes sense, but I'd still minimize it and leave compass and minimap entirely ( out of it). Or at least design it as very optional ( cyberware upgrade).

Thing is, it's important they nail the "feel" of urban chaos, there is danger( and opportunity) around every corner, keep your wits about you at all times. So player has to always pay attention to what's going on ( around him).

But if you immediately see Red points/Enemies 50 meters ahead of you and know their approx location, then what's the point of everything they said about First Person?.

Mike had an interesting answer on this: in First Person you're a soldier, not a general.

In other words: YOU make decisions from Direct audio/video feedback that environment gives you, you have to evaluate where something is...Compass or Minimap( even worse) makes this perspective pointless.

Post automatically merged: Aug 6, 2018

I don't mind if developers add an option for player who don't have time as more "vocal" fanbase.

But I don't see how it's a better design: isn't exploring far more rewarding when it includes element of surprise and has more player agency ( to it)?

When it feels more organic/natural: you're walking down the street, you suddenly hear a sound or notice something in the distance, and you want to see what it was?

Isn't that the whole point of open world games, in general: Immersion?

And today, when video games have drastically better audio design and detailed environments, it's paradoxical they don't use it to their advantage ( here).

Having locations plotted on a minimap and even having good guidance when invoked by the player doesn't necessitate highlighting/denoting enemies.

I also don't see why it existing would eliminate exploration, even if it turns on by itself during missions, presumably you will have times you aren't on mission go explore without setting a destination.

How is surprise impacted? If I have to get to a show, I can be surprised by things that occur while on that journey or by experiencing an impressive locale when I get there, not by the fact that I did get there which is the only part impacted by having it as a mapped location.

HUDs and such can be immersion breaking when it comes to a fantasy game, but a big part of cyberpunk is advanced tech being everywhere, so a game can have all the right set dressings but if tech isn't significant, especially when it comes to everyday concerns like navigation, it is just a modern setting with a skin. To me that's immersion breaking.

 

[Snowflakez]

But I don't see how it's a better design: isn't exploring far more rewarding when it includes element of surprise and has more player agency ( to it)?

When it feels more organic/natural: you're walking down the street, you suddenly hear a sound or notice something in the distance, and you want to see what it was?

Not necessarily. Maybe it's more rewarding to you, but I don't see how it's objectively better design. In fact, you could argue that it's objectively worse design because it isn't as accessible. What about folks with hearing or vision problems who may not pick up on small cues? Or, heck, just people who have bad memory?

As somebody who enjoys immersion/exploration as well as completionist stuff (typically after my first playthrough, but still), I think the way Skyrim (and other ES titles) handled it was solid. As long as you were near a landmark, you would see it on your compass, and be able to go to it to have it show up on your full map. If you weren't even close, it didn't magically show up.

Similarly, you could talk to tavern keeps, random adventurers, and others to have points of interest show up on your map.

A system like that would be the ideal compromise, I think. But I think going too hard in the direction you ask for would be detrimental to the experience for a lot of people.

 

[Jarred_Blaauw]

I think that the way you discover is different because for one this is the future some mechanics or rules that worked in The witcher time period wont work in 2077 also CD projekt red said that Cyberpunk 2077 wont just be a Gta - Witcher massup it will be its own game.

So maybe the world will work like farcry 5 where you speak to people and thats how you get info or maybe they will do a tower thing like most ubisoft or maybe they will stick to the Witcher.

Sometging they could is like God of war when you started game the worlds map was covered in a fog but as you went through the story, explored in the world and interacted with certian things more info was unlock making you always have a sense of wonder because you didnt now what might be around the next corner.