[POLL] : Layered Music / Culture discussion

[CyberBobber]

If professional makes the music and players hear it while they are playing the game, they dont care if its made my World Top Artist or some unknown dude. You arent blowing your money away. As we speak GTA5 is hiring known DJs for their game, is that a smart move? Blow money on some Artist.

Post automatically merged: Feb 15, 2019

Im not entirely sure what GTA5 is doing but as far I know, they are hiring real DJs. Damn, that must cost a fortune. When professional makes it 1000 time cheaper and probably with better results.

 

[evotaph]

If professional makes the music and players hear it while they are playing the game, they dont care if its made my World Top Artist or some unknown dude.

^You're kind of agreeing with my earlier comment here.

What really matters (IMHO) is that the music supports the themes and cultures present in the world. Different visionholders will probably have different opinions on how to achieve that. Mantia/Reese are the "closest to the metal" so they can represent the goals of the Creative Director most accurately. My idea here is merely one way to support that internal effort via external licensed music.

 

[CyberBobber]

^You're kind of agreeing with my earlier comment here.

What really matters (IMHO) is that the music supports the themes and cultures present in the world. Different visionholders will probably have different opinions on how to achieve that. Mantia/Reese are the "closest to the metal" so they can represent the goals of the Creative Director most accurately. My idea here is merely one way to support that internal effort via external licensed music.

Right, well Ive given my own ideas. I came back to this thread because some people think music is expensive to make and licensed music. Licensed music isnt that expensive maybe 200 bucks per song, probably alot less. Thats nothing for game industry triple A titles. And trust me when I say this, music isnt expensive to make, its really matter of hours to produce top market track.

Btw, dont you think your idea is sorta overkill? Most games doesnt care very little to none about music and you are talking about 3 layers right?

 

[evotaph]

Licensed music isnt that expensive maybe 200 bucks per song, probably alot less.

The cost varies considerably. It can be as little as zero if both sides agree that it's mutally benefical, to many thousands of US dollars per track. I can't comment on the costs of producing a track.

Btw, dont you think your idea is sorta overkill?

It might be. It costs CDPR nothing but the time they'd take to read it up front. My guess is that they are already doing at least half of what I'm proposing. The unknown is whether they are open to the possibility of licensing music at all. The way that they watch both the NOW LISTENING and CYBERPUNK SOUNDTRACK threads daily suggests that they are.

Most games doesnt care very little to none about music

Agreed. But Cyberpunk 2077 isn't most games. If it was only an afterthought to them, they wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of hiring two industry veterans and trying to create entirely new genres of music.

 

[Rawls]

Couple of interviews you may find relevant to this discussion:
https://www.vgr.com/cd-projekt-red-composer-marcin-przybylowicz-on-the-cyberpunk-2077-soundtrack/

Spoiler: some vgr article text

Our work shouldn’t be only about coming up with some music and shoving it in game. You always have to be extra careful of this additional factor of how the music sits in the game universe, how the music sits within the storylines, within the art direction, or general style, as I would say, for the project you’re working on. So, it was a challenge, but nothing we wouldn’t expect, to be honest.
...
“the way we plan the music placement in our games is simple; it always has to help the story, because the story in our games is the most important thing. I believe, personally, that we as a studio are the best in storytelling, so my role as a composer is to do everything that’s possible to help my music to add additional context to those stories, or help in narration, for example, for those stories.”

https://www.gamerpros.co/cyberpunk-2077-interview-marcin-przybylowicz/

Spoiler: some text from gamepros article

So, the approach, as I said, totally different because it’s a totally different universe. A totally different world. And the goals that music needs to achieve are also… well they’re not that different compared to The Witcher because it still is this trait of music but, I think I can say it now that the world in Cyberpunk is going to be even more open. It’s obviously set in 2077, so that means we have electricity, we have technology, so that also means that we have various amounts of devices that can play music. For example: personal media players, P.A. systems in clubs, boomboxes, whatever, which we didn’t obviously have in The Witcher. So, that means we are going to have much, much more source music placed in the world connected organically to the world and the narrative in [Cyberpunk 2077] than in The Witcher.
...
So, where Cyberpunk 2077 has more of a dystopian setting what are some ways that you’ve built atmosphere through the music, and to you how important is it build that atmosphere through music?
Ok, another tricky question. So, the atmosphere is obviously very important. It’s crucial for the game in general but what we are trying to do actually is not to ring that dystopian bell to much. It’s obviously going to be there somewhat, that dystopian element, in the music as well. But, as everyone has already seen, because recently this almost 50-minute gameplay was published so, everyone can see how Cyberpunk 2077 looks now, at the moment. So, everyone can see that our game is cyberpunk-inspired with our twist basically. Also, in terms of visuals, in terms of atmosphere, in terms of narrative, in terms of attitude also, it’s not all about the, you know, gloomy guy in a trench coat drinking bourbon or whatever in a bar talking about how shitty of a day he had, or talking about ho his ex-wife is ruining him because he’s divorcing her or whatever, and by the way he also has this case and he doesn’t know how to crack it. We are trying to show that cyberpunk doesn’t have to always be all about a rainy night and depression, that at least is how I understand cyberpunk. Also, having experience playing Cyberpunk 2020 in high school, I think this game is all about the attitude in terms of atmosphere. So, I am trying to reintroduce punk with the music to our project. It doesn’t mean we would have Sex Pistolsplaying all the time, for example, in-game because it’s still supposed to be 2077. But what I am trying to nail down is this atmosphere of having both, basically. Having certain attitudes towards everything in the world because the most important thing, for me at least, in Cyberpunk 2020, the pen and paper version, was one sentence: Style Over Substance. So, it wasn’t the most important thing in the paper version of the RPG to… win or lose, for example. It was all about the style of doing that thing. Okay, you may die or you may lose but at least you do it with style. So that’s what I’m trying to do with the music. I’m trying to inject this feeling into the narrative, or help the narrative with highlighting certain elements of the music to make players feel that.
...
There’s a moment in the demo where, you know, V wakes up after what seems like a pretty long night and there’s a rock-style song playing by the fictional character Johnny Silverhand. I’m curious how much influence you have over that sort of music in the world as well.

We did that. They’re our internal assets.
...

Ah here's the other quote, in a thread here: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/radio-station-nightcity-fm.10980608/

“All music assets (all but one, to be precise) were composed and produced internally, including Chippin’ In and other radio/media tracks.”

RAWLS OPINION - I have a sneaking suspicion the “one” might be “Bullets” by Archive.

 

[evotaph]

Thank you Rawls,

This is useful info. It confirms a few of our suspicions and hints at use cases / themes that parallel what I'm proposing. That's encouraging even if CDPR ignore my suggestions.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________​

The biggest unknown is whether CDPR is willing to license outiside music (for in-game use). Here is why I think they are:

• Player expectation. Look how many people post DAILY in the CYBERPUNK SOUNDTRACK thread. Every track there is licensed. Maybe Mantia / Resse will solve that with what they're doing. But that amount of content creation is staggering for two people even with help.
• CDPR monitoring. CDPR watch both the SOUNDTRACK / NOW LISTENING threads DAILY. They have no incentive to do that unless they're considering licensing music or using the threads to see if their internal music is what players want / expect.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________​

My take is gamers WANT external licensed music beyond the internal work by Marcin Przybylowicz. They just want the RIGHT licensed music. I feel that I could help zero in on that, having done this professionally in the industry and being a 2020 player since 1990. (Being disabled, I cost CDPR zero and have nothing but time.) That said, it's pretty obvious that they don't NEED help from anyone.

I just want the same chance as anybody here: A chance to lobby for how I think the game could be better. It's an extreme long shot, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't at least try. I've been waiting for this game for nearly 30 years.

​

 

[CyberBobber]

The cost varies considerably. It can be as little as zero if both sides agree that it's mutally benefical, to many thousands of US dollars per track. I can't comment on the costs of producing a track.

Well I found this..

"In a film, the fee would be $10,000 in perpetuity. A more popular song is worth more, perhaps $3,000 for TV and $25,000 for film. A song used as the theme song for a film might get $50,000 to $75,000. Commercials fetch even more money: "a song can command anywhere from $25,000 to $500,000 plus per year."

Its almost laughable they pay so much for music when, even I could make Billboard 200 stuff within one week. You want Lady Gaga voice? Theres thousands of girls with similiar voice etc. Hopefully game industry isnt this dumb. My vote goes for professional producers and "fake" voices.

 

[evotaph]

"In a film, the fee would be $10,000 in perpetuity. A more popular song is worth more, perhaps $3,000 for TV and $25,000 for film. A song used as the theme song for a film might get $50,000 to $75,000. Commercials fetch even more money: "a song can command anywhere from $25,000 to $500,000 plus per year."

Yeah that's what I was alluding to. Like you were saying, it's usually better to go for artists that are a great fit stylistically/culturally than for name recognition. You get WAY more "bang for your buck" budget wise. These costs are somewhat negotiable though. The promotional value for an artist being in a game that sells 20 million+ plus units in it's first year (conservatively) can't be overstated.

 

[CyberBobber]

I dont think game industry is transmedia enough to get full benefit from global Artists. Thats why Ive suggested game industry should go TV-series and start building their transmedia-thing. But yeah Im going off-topic now.

 

[evotaph]

ON BRYAN MANTIA and MELISSA REESE:

I think a clearer picture is beginning to form (at least for me) about how CDPR is approaching their internal music production. I came across a live perfromance by Bryan Mantia and Melissa Reese during the timeframe where they were probably working on the game. And while they are doing their own thing here (ie not being directed by CDPR) it gives us a glimpse of what we might expect. Turntablism influence, Midi controllers to drive software DAWs, samples, loops and live drum pads, synthpoppy vocals from Melissa / Axl Rose recorded vocals, and all of these pieces working together and mashed up. I like it a lot and it fits a tech based approach to making music.

You can see how their experience with Guns and Roses would lend itself to Rock Music like SAMURAI (Chippin' in). Melissa's background in classical music and theory is bound to pay off as well. Talent and experience wise, I'm sure they could create music in pretty much any genre which is great.

My only two uncertainties are the scope of content creation for a game of this size (I'd estimate at least 120+ unique music tracks but I could be off there) and whether the COUNTER Culture would be under-represented. I hear Rock. I hear electronic and synthpop influences. But we don't know how much PUNK (I don't mean "punk rock music") will be captured musically. What I'm not hearing (so far) is the music society makes as it tears itself apart.

I know I'm lobbying my position here, but those (potential) holes could be filled with appropriate music licenses at a comparatively low cost.

 

[KULLAPS]

synthwave, it has become too mainstream to strictly label it with Cyberpunk as a genre.

yes and no
the main genre of synthwave has become too mainstream
but the sub-genre with in synthwave haven't very little people explore the sub-genres
thats why if you look up
Best of Synthwave And Retro Electro
on youtube it has about 6.8M veiws
but if you look up say
Aggressive Dark Synth or Horror Synth
you rarely see mix's or song over 500k or 1M
synthwave doesn't fit the cyberpunk look
where dark synth and horror synth does
but also remember that synthwave and its sub-genres are based in these 80's retro futurism style.
now i do think a sub-genre of synthwave will be in the game base off of that fact.
cyberpunk was created in the 80's thinking of how now would be like creating that retro futurism.

but also lets not forget the sub-genre of synthwave
Cyberpunk
so saying , it has become too mainstream to strictly label it with Cyberpunk as a genre
its already a sub-genre of synthwave and again its not a very large or mainstream
weather synthwave or the sub-genres are in the game i will still be listening to Dark Synth as i play.

 

[evotaph]

yes and no
the main genre of synthwave has become too mainstream
but the sub-genre with in synthwave haven't very little people explore the sub-genres
thats why if you look up
Best of Synthwave And Retro Electro
on youtube it has about 6.8M veiws
but if you look up say
Aggressive Dark Synth or Horror Synth
you rarely see mix's or song over 500k or 1M
synthwave doesn't fit the cyberpunk look
where dark synth and horror synth does
but also remember that synthwave and its sub-genres are based in these 80's retro futurism style.
now i do think a sub-genre of synthwave will be in the game base off of that fact.
cyberpunk was created in the 80's thinking of how now would be like creating that retro futurism.

but also lets not forget the sub-genre of synthwave
Cyberpunk
so saying , it has become too mainstream to strictly label it with Cyberpunk as a genre
its already a sub-genre of synthwave and again its not a very large or mainstream
weather synthwave or the sub-genres are in the game i will still be listening to Dark Synth as i play.

It's important to mention that the point about synthwave is not MY position. It's an official statement from CDPR. Personally, I agree with you that Dark synth is a closer fit for Cyberpunk and I have a few examples of that in this thread and the Cyberpunk Soundtrack thread. My approach to music curation is culture-based rather than genre based.

I'd love to hear some of the links to Dark synth that you think are a good fit and why.

 

[Sild]

Discovered, actually, re-discovered a bit of info you and anyone interested in this aspect of the game might find interesting.

https://ask.fm/Perturbatormusic/answers/142355958752

 

[evotaph]

Discovered, actually, re-discovered a bit of info you and anyone interested in this aspect of the game might find interesting.

https://ask.fm/Perturbatormusic/answers/142355958752

Interesting. I like Perturbator, but I hadn't considered him to be in the running since Marcin Przybylowicz is confirmed to be handling the dynamic score (instrumental thematic music without lyrics.) I don't know what the internal team structure is, but my guess would be that the Creative Director is the ultimate vision holder and that Marcin is running point on executing that vision downsteam.

If that IS true then Marcin is probably overseeing:

• His own Score
• Bryan Mantia / Melissa Reese (Soundtrack like SAMURAI)
• Pertubator (Score if his past work is an indication)
• Gaga (though her schedule puts this into doubt unless that work is already done)
• Any additional licensed music (Use case unknown)

What do you think?

 

[Sild]

I think that's a fair assessment.

If we look at the soundtrack for the Witcher 3, there are 35 songs part of the original soundtrack of which about 15 were solely composed by Marcin, the rest were either in colab with Percival (folklore band) and Mikolai Stroinski (independent? composer) or composed by either of the two. The same can be observed in the case of the two expansions.

Of course Cyberpunk 2077 is a different beast than the Witcher 3. For one the potential music sources in the game is much, MUCH higher than in the Witcher 3 (radios, clubs, stores, malls?, everything has a way of playing music) so for that reason alone a much higher number of tracks must be included in game to keep the illusion of a living, breathing, alternate world, which don't necessarily need to be part of the original/official soundtrack. Licensing can be a good way of maintaining that illusion.

That said, concerning Perturbator's involvement, if he is indeed involved, he's probably working as a composer alongside Marcin, ofc, with Marcin overseeing the direction they take, since Perturbator's experience and talent with the particularities of tech based music is recognized.

 

[evotaph]

I think that's a fair assessment.

If we look at the soundtrack for the Witcher 3, there are 35 songs part of the original soundtrack of which about 15 were solely composed by Marcin, the rest were either in colab with Percival (folklore band) and Mikolai Stroinski (independent? composer) or composed by either of the two. The same can be observed in the case of the two expansions.

Of course Cyberpunk 2077 is a different beast than the Witcher 3. For one the potential music sources in the game is much, MUCH higher than in the Witcher 3 (radios, clubs, stores, malls?, everything has a way of playing music) so for that reason alone a much higher number of tracks must be included in game to keep the illusion of a living, breathing, alternate world, which don't necessarily need to be part of the original/official soundtrack. Licensing can be a good way of maintaining that illusion.

That said, concerning Perturbator's involvement, if he is indeed involved, he's probably working as a composer alongside Marcin, ofc, with Marcin overseeing the direction they take, since Perturbator's experience and talent with the particularities of tech based music is recognized.

You hit upon what I see as the single strongest argument in favor of licensed music: SCOPE. The music sources (Environment, streamed music "radio", etc) make a strong case for licensed music. And the sheer amount of content required make an even STRONGER case for licensed music. It seems possible that CDPR is collaborating with several external partners (as alluded to by Perturbator himself) to create original music but I just can't see them filling out the world musically without licensed tracks.

Whether my speculation above about who is doing what is true or not, I'd estimate you're talking a bare MINIMUM of 120+ non-score, licensed music tracks to fill out that world. They'd need WAY more musical partners than we know about (Minimum of 10-12 "teams/artists/bands/DJ's/Producers" x 10 tracks each) and the drawback to that approach is reduced content variety. GTA IV had between 200 and 207 (lists vary) licensed MUSIC tracks in the game (not counting promo, etc). GTA V had 204 if you don't count the remixed tracks. So ballpark 200. And the GTA games are almost exclusively dedicating that licensed music to radio stations, whereas Night city has Rockerboys, Chromers, clubs, shops, and districts with unique cultures as well. Obviously 2077 isn't GTA, but both are open world and likely 50+ hour experiences.

This is a major reason I continue to lobby on behalf of licensed music even if CDPR thinks my approach to licensed music curation / suggestions are completely off-target stylistically.

And I see another risk area based on what we've heard so far (but I'll save that for a separate post.)

@Lilayah or @Marcin Momot would it be safe to assume any update on this topic is a "No comment" at this point?

 

[CyberBobber]

They say its 50-60 hour main and couple hundred with activities. Im finally starting to see how freaking big this game is. No wonder some people say its overhyped.

Btw, Cyberpunk 2077 trailer has reached 14 mill in 6 month, its pretty nice. But yeah compared to GTA5 they pulled something like 30 mill in a week.

 

[evotaph]

They say its 50-60 hour main and couple hundred with activities. Im finally starting to see how freaking big this game is. No wonder some people say its overhyped.

Btw, Cyberpunk 2077 trailer has reached 14 mill in 6 month, its pretty nice. But yeah compared to GTA5 they pulled something like 30 mill in a week.

Yeah in terms of SCOPE and target level of quality, 2077 is an absolutely MASSIVE undertaking. From a design perspective alone, GTA pales in comparison... to say nothing of the many other areas that are orders of magnitude more complex. I am honestly awestruck by CDPR's ambition.

 

[CyberBobber]

Yeah in terms of SCOPE and target level of quality, 2077 is an absolutely MASSIVE undertaking. I am honestly awestruck by CDPR's ambition.

Agreed, if they wanna hit on GTA, release this, endgame mode for GTA6 launch, Cyberpunk 2 for GTA7's launch.

 

[evotaph]

Agreed, if they wanna hit on GTA, release this, endgame mode for GTA6 launch, Cyberpunk 2 for GTA7's launch.

Rockstar shouldn't be underestimated as they have a very talented team, solid tech and a mind-bending budget to hit their quality targets. RDR illustrates the level of polish that budget can get you. And in an era of exploitative shovelware, polish counts for a lot. (See also, Death Stranding, God of War, etc)

AAA *should* probably be described as not only high production values (which you see in EA and Activision games) but also every aspect of the title, tuned, balanced, stable, optimized and polished to near perfection (none of which you see in EA, Activision, Bethesda games.)

But they are trying to make a very different type of game. IMHO opinion:

• Rockstar is targeting an extremely polished, very BROAD game where every detail has been considered and given love.
• CDPR is targeting an extremely polished, very DEEP game where every detail has been considered and given love.

So I expect where 2077 will really outshine Rockstar titles is gameplay systems/depth, player options (character builds/customization), and superior narrative agency (Interactive Scene system, etc).