Possible game update for PnP?

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I gotta side with Doom on this one. The GM is not infallible, and the minute he pulls out the "GM is god, and what I say goes no matter what" card is the minute I get up and go, no matter how good his game might otherwise be.

GMing is hard work, it's hard to create a compelling story, or maybe even just a moment... and sometimes a player will do something that seems totally feasible, or the GM will pull some random crap out of their ass, or somebody misinterprets a rule, or someone follows a rule to closely, without any flexibility, or ignores it altogether, even in situations where it makes sense...

The player should feel free to call it out, and give an explanation...

However I also fall into Sardi's camp, where as a GM, I will listen to objections or misgivings about a call.... but I will not argue. I give the chance to be convinced, so long as it is done, calmly and rationally. and if after I have heard your reasoning, you agree to bide by my ruling, even if it is at odds with your objection. But I will not tolerate characters who want to argue with me, or throw a temper tantrum...

Then again, I don't screw my players out of hand, I don;t set out to fuck the characters up, and I don't mary sue any bullshit. And I don't tolerate other GM's who do. A bully is a bully, even if he is sitting behind a gm screen, or behind a character sheet, and I don't have time in my life for that nonsense.

No gaming is better than bad gaming, as they say...

Sometimes your not going to like a gms call but fairness is the rule. As long as it's fair you can't argue it too much. But if it's not fair and rules come tumbling from nowhere...well that's a gm not worth his salt.

Honestly the player vs the gm thing doesn't crop up much in the tabletop setting, nor do we often have player problems either. Last guy who tried coming into our group left. When he realized no one in our crew liked being pushed around and wouldnt accept bullying he bolted. I'm sure he's out there with someone being an overbearing douchepickle and rollin the bones, but he's not with us.
 
I hate to make comparison's like these, but GM's are the ones setting up the "playground" in the Sandbox. Players have to realize this. So it's important for GM's and Players to have that understanding before a die is rolled, before a character concept is tossed out - the parameters of the game should be set by the GM, player input is weighed in as needed or required.

Generally I set my campaigns up with the core concept (this is a military campaign set in Texas, or this is set in Night City, about the feud between rival Yakuza and Russian Mafia picking off the losers - or whatever). I usually let people roll Lifepath and modify it by agreement based on the scope of the game. I've never had any problems doing it this way. Lifepath is a tool to be used, it's not the final arbiter of anything.

My goal first and foremost is to get the players a character they REALLY wanna play. And Lifepath can throw some really interesting curveballs that can work into a concept and make it even better. But the GM needs to have the final say on what works and what doesn't.

If you're into the pure sandbox whatever-goes style of play, no problem. As a GM I like shaping the narrative of the game BASED on the players, not just random happenstance though I'm open to happenstance flavoring things - it keeps people on their toes. Including me.

I've given some thought about netrunning in 2077...

Something that no one outside of Oracle Systems predicted pre-1990 in real-time was distributed computing networks. When I was working at MS - it was revolutionary to consider. We had T1 connections when everyone else was running 2400 Baud dial-up... so for us, distributed networking over the web was definitely futuretech. It's all here now. And you don't see a whiff of it in 2020 (it's assumed to be abstracted at best). One could make the case of distributed networking as being a bane to the whole idea of netrunning in general. Not to mention the hardware that classically surrounds netrunning...

Well the big issue is "what do you need a Cybermodem for? My proposition is that you don't need a cybermodem to jack into the net. That could easily be done wirelessly through some interface implant. What a "deck" *COULD* do for you, however, is protect that meat against Black Ice.

Consider this: Distributed networks would be possible to create an entire virtual reality we colloquially call the Web in VR - it would look pretty much like a bunch of MMO's slammed together where virtual space is claimed by Domains owned and operated by those able to pay for the virtual real-estate. Much like it was/is envisioned in CP2020. But in order to be effective, distributed filesharing (the Cloud) makes it painfully simple to retrieve and store data, a *real* netrunner (i.e. hacker) would have have little problem decrypting things stealthfully with futuretech. So new standards of file-sharing, and networking would require a more "hands on" approach to security. This is where 2077 Netrunning becomes a kickass game unto itself to be enjoyed by a Party - not just a lone Deckhead.

The reason why IT folks laugh at the quaintness of Cyberpunk's netrunning - is two fold: 1) there wasn't a solid background of IT know-how when the game was written. 2) IT nerds even now, make a critical Kurzweilian assumption that while Moore's Law will continue - that John Q. Public's access to it will continue unabated and we'll continue moving forward owning all the technical sophistication.

I would surmise this latter part is not true. I do think Moore's Law will continue to push our technical capacity ever onwards. I think that governmental control over our aging networks is proving to be too difficult for software alone to handle in terms of encryption needs. Couple that with the potentiality of humans using quantum processors to enhance their own intuitiveness - and yes, we'll all be laughing (if you aren't already) at how easy it is to hack into some of the most secure databases around the world. CP2077/2020(revamp) needs to be more than this. There's a reason why internal networks are blocked off from distributive access without special tunneling software. That's where Netrunning comes in.

My proposition is that a deck is used to allow multiple people to act as CPU's -enmasse. Picture an adventuring party in an MMO with a respective role to play. A truly gifted hacker like Rache Bartmoss might be able to solo stuff just fine, but the game should give benefits to hackers that work as a team with a netrunner. The mechanics of the system would allow us to re-imagine the CP2020 Netrunning scheme by simply re-drawing what the tools are meant to do.

What re-designed netrunning SHOULD be able to encompass:

1) Give us tools to play with: Benefits from deck-design protect the wetware of the users, on top of allowing them to utilize customized hacks for cracking into networks. No you don't need a deck to run the net. Decks are for committing crimes. PERIOD. Even having one should be illegal (but that's not gonna stop you, right?) ;)

2) More is merrier: Make netrunning fun for the whole group. It shouldn't be necessary, but it should be possible and worthwhile.

3) Basic rules that cleave to "normal" rules of meat-combat. Virtualize it and make it over the top. Programs-as-"spells" is a great analogy but it doesn't have to be locked into that paradigm. See Mage and the Technocracy and Virtual Adepts - that's every bit as cyberpunk as as CP2020. Advanced rules should be for where the big boys play and remain beyond the reach and understanding of non-runners.

4) Lots of applications! Remote control of *everything*. In the future -nothing should be unhackable. Netrunners are the mages of the future - where the Web literally touches everything.

5) Dark possibilities. The advances of neuroscience can make for some crazy and insane possibilities that push the transhuman borders. This should not be shied away from with Netrunning. It should be embraced as long as it's still cyberpunk. I prefer seeing a teenaged kid trying to make his home-brewed AI out of the guts of some MicroTech boards and Biotechnica Neurofilm. He's got a couple of apps from a friend and the film is connected to his notebook PC, plugged into his deck, wired to the neural film sitting in petrie dishes made of glass goldfish bowls and a cat-brain. He's using jumper cables to download parts of his psyche into the memory core of the setup and lo and behold it lives!
 
A NEW Cyberpunk pnp would be great. But it had to be "2020" done from the scratch. (so it would probably be 2077).
V3 was a great let down. In fact it was utter shit (sorry Mike but it's true)
1. Graphicts were ranging from unexistent to ugly.

I for one liked the artwork. The graphics used for the page borders was okay, but I thought they did an outstanding job considering they used a two color printing process. Cyberpunk books are not very profitable, it's not like they have Wizards of the Coast that can pour money into production costs, and they aren't selling a brand as big as Dungeons & Dragons.

2. Mechanics. There were something wrong with that. Even without cyberlinks etc it was impossible to miss a target (or be missed by the enemy.

And those weapons did so much damage they wiped you out in a single hit. This world is DANGEROUS. Live on the edge. The game mechanics were tightened up. You could resolve conflict in a few dice rolls. (Interestingly enough, the World of Darkness similarly made their mechanics simpler and deadlier when they revised the rules. It's a GOOD thing.)

3. Laziness. Copy pasted a chunk of CP2020.

Yes they did. You know what's great about that? You can play CP2020 with the CP203X book. I take it to be a sign that CP2020 had a lot right the first time, and it holds up. On top of that you have older gamers who can use their familiarity with the old rules to ease into the new version.
4. Very little new stuff.

I disagree. There was plenty of new stuff, and the new stuff was organized in a way that allowed for greater customization by the Ref and the players.
5. Altcults - we are unorganized bunch of likeminded people not bound to certain place or regions (yet we all live in separated places and regions... eee... shut up)
We are unorganized but we have technologies nations and corporations can dream about. Well... we are great so we developed them just like that...

I don't know where you get this from. Each of the AltCults has a background and origin that is explained in the 203X rulebook. They ARE organized, and they do have regions which they come from. In Night City, they all have Enclaves, and AltCults (and Corporations and Governments and Gangs and any other "group" can all have Enclaves and are Sovereign unto themselves.)
6. Magic. Yes there is magi. Magical cyborg bracelet. You put in on your wirst and you arm becomes a cyber arm. How lame ass is that... Mike, what were you thinking...?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clark. (One of my all time favorite authors!)
Look at it this way: there are levels of "data" and how it's processed. Binary > Machine Code > Higher level languages > GUI programming aides. Now lets keep going. You have Artificial Intelligences that can organize microscopic machines at a level that you can't even comprehend. Why couldn't nanomachines organize themselves in such a way that they sheath an arm in a reinforced protective layer? And they connect hard points at the joints, that are rings and bands that aren't disassembled and reassembled.
7. Nations. There are no nations. Yet there are nations. Again there is no US yet the evil US are trying to reunite west coast with the rest of the nation. The whole 'fluff" thing smells like poo.

Read "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson. It epitomizes the concept of Nations with their Statehood scattered across various Enclaves. Notice my use of capitalized pronouns. A Nation is a group of people with the same political and/or cultural identity. A State is land with borders, under a single political system. (I.E. Palestine is a Nation without a State.)
8. Data crash, paper eating virus... Mike, buddy, please...

A little silly? Yeah. But it's setting. Civilization is rebuilding itself. The corporations and the gangs exploit each other and the masses to keep ahead. The AltCults redefine humanity in their own image. In order to build up, you have to break down the past. CP2020 was about surviving the dog-eat-dog world after FINANCIAL ruin, and an *almost* World War 3. CP203X was about surviving the nanoplague-eat-cyberdog world of TECHNOLOGICAL ruin and corporate war.
9. Living cities... Oh come on... Somebody spraey some nanotech from a can and - puff! - whole west coast is a one big living city where everything changes every minute. Need I remind that every single living being in that city would got the hell out otf that nightmare?
And many many many more.
Yep. Nanotech can be some scary shit. And it doesn't change "every minute." It took 10+ years to get where it is now. This is the perfect setting for Cyberpunk. You have endless city, with numerous highways full of roving nomads and gangers, skyscrapers held by whatever corporation or AltCult can hold it, vast underground "old city," millions of flats, condos, apartments, ghettos, shopping malls for every epic urban chase scene.

I stand by V3 or CP203X. Then again, my opinion is skewed because I like more progressive cyberpunk literature, and I like more hardcore science fiction as well. In CP203X, the core of Cyberpunk 2020 was present. I expect in Cyberpunk 2077 we will see the same. However, I would not be surprised if they write off Cybergeneration and Cyberpunk 203X for the new game. I would.

Technology is not advancing as fast as it used to. In the 80s and 90s, the technology in CP2020 seemed very reasonable. But as technology improves and our perceptions change toward technology, the genre of cyberpunk evolves. Science fiction and cyberpunk authors have really pushed the ideas of what technology can do to the point that the cybernetics in CP2020 seem antiquated, and the idea of cyberpsychosis is passe.

We can tone down the extreme technology we saw in CP203X. In CP2077 I would expect to see technology like in CP2020... only more refined, less invasive and more socially acceptable. Since we can expect the story to continue from CP2020 (rather than a reboot or rewrite) we can probably infer that technology to upload the human mind into computers will be a possibility. Remember, Alt wrote "Soul Killer" around 2020. In 50 years, that shit is freeware. Also, in 50 years you can expect AIs to have evolved. Put an AI in a body and "raise" it to be human... and you would be surprised at the result. It might be more human than some humans.
 
Dolls. That is all.

Lol yeah. It totally looked like an art student's project. It might have been! Conceptually, I love it.

I work at a hobby shop in Southern California. I see model makers, set designers and prop makers for TV and movies all the time. I've seen some good work, and If there was any sort of budget, they could have hired a pro and put some money into some higher quality "dolls" and props.
 
I heard the French got a version that was pretty good. The problem I had with v3 was that well, some of the stuff was really silly, other things were dumb. I liked Agents, and Nano dust, I liked some of the weapons, I honestly liked Densai (the Parkology was a interesting idea). I thought rolling State had some good ideas, loved meta characters. But I hated the art, the lay out, the Rabids and the paper eating virus. The cyborg faction lost a lot of its coolness with the loss of the threat of cyberpsychosis. Yeah as a player and Ref I like humanity loss. Some day I might run a V3 game, but it will be heavily modified.
 
I'm going to repost this for Dyrewulf with apologies.

Actually, V.3 used Cybergeneration as it's 'springboard'. It's 'official' as it's going to get, if I remember correctly.

The issue I had with version 3 was twofold. The first was the mechanics, a lot of it was cut and pasted from the older games with new ones slapped in with no sense as to how it would work together. But you can work around this.

The other major issue was story wise. The Paper Plague was, I am not going to mince words here and I apologize if this offends, the stupidest thing anyone could have thought up of. I'm no scientist, I'm an artist (and not that good) for heaven's sake and even I know that viruses go after living tissue, like trees and flesh, not paper which is actually pretty dead. And worse, viruses, even genetically tailored ones will mutate. Needless to say, the plague could have put a serious dent in the living population, and not harm a single paperback or hardcover book.

Next up was the counterpart 'electronic' virus that somehow managed to destroy single every piece of electronic data in the entire world, including corporate files. Via the internet. Which flies in the face of everything we've been taught about how the various corporations work. These are paranoid entities who will shoot first, and maybe clean up the bodies, should someone even hint at trying to get one of their secrets.

Most real world corporations have an in house intranet, which is sealed from the outside world. Not to mention that in CP2020, they'd likely have anything super important locked up in a vault, in triplicate and spread out among several locations. Just in case.

To actually wipe all that data would require a simultaneous setting off EMP bombs at every single physical data node at once. And that amount of power would destroy most of the world's infrastructure casting us back into the iron age if we're lucky. There would have been none of those 'alt-cultures'.

Which is yet another bone of contention. These groups of... Kids? (I forget) who belong to these gang like groups with access to super science technology, but each developing it in exclusion of everything else. Ignoring the 'Paper Plague' BS, there's no spying? No stealing of ideas? How in the world do you think the real world got where it is now in terms of technology? Because someone saw something cool that someone else was doing and managed to market it to the masses in a way that people believe they need it. The computer mouse? Xerox of the Photocopier fame made it first., or rather one of their engineering teams did. Apple managed to market it better for it's line of computers. Windows? It's a stolen copy of the Mac OS, gussied up and marketed to the point where it's ubiquitous. These 'Alt-Cults' as V.3 wanted to do wouldn't have happened. Not because it's unrealistic, it's because it's implausible by what we as a people know.

Science Fiction is ground in the reality that we know about, and unlike Fantasy, isn't something you can take that much liberties with. It doesn't have to be 'realistic', it just has to be 'plausible'. Sadly, Cyberpunk V.3 is not even close to being plausible.

In 'reality' as per the way Mr. Pondsmith set up 2020, the paper plague would be nothing more than a footnote. Their version of the Y2K bug. Maybe a couple million deaths world wide, and for the first year a lot less internet porn, but the rest of the world would have just trucked along nicely.
 
V3 always seemd a weird sort of place for Cyberpunk 2020 to go - not forward so much as sideways. There were a lotof fundamental political issues in 2020 with nations and corporations and orbital/aquatic control and so forth, some really interesting stuff.

And V3 just...ran over it. Made some huge jumps on disaster-based responses and went to a really different place.

I'd like to see an update to the political and socioeconomic states from 2020 that was much more realistic, grounded in something vaguely defensible as likely and had more to do with human nature than super-tech.

Also fix the HtH rules, Roles, Drugs, crit success/failure and, oh, 4-damage-to-head-kills-you, please.


On the topic of GM fairness, I'll leave it at this: I don't believe in it. The rulebook says not to do it and I think Pondsmith is right. Good stories and agmes don't come from triumphing in fairness, they come from overcoming adversity.

That said, I run CP2020, SLA, Dark Heresy, WFRP, and Vampire. Pretty obviously I hate my players and want them to cry.
 
V3 was a lot of things... it was interesting in its own right, it had some real neat concepts... but it was not, in any way, Cyberpunk. It was way too out there technology wise. The world itself was unrecognizable.. It was fantasy. And you know what.... that's fine, as I said it was an interesting setting, it just wasn't Cyberpunk.

Had Mike called it anything else, it would have probably done gangbusters... well, except for the doll art... but the game itself was a solid premise. But what makes a successful Cyberpunk game, is a setting that feels familiar, just around the corner... dark and foreboding yes, but plausible. So while V3 would have been cool on its own right, it wasn't a direction any fans of the game wanted it to go. The fans didn't want a drastic change to setting and theme, they really just wanted more of the game they loved, with maybe some updated rules. It was, for all intents and, equivalent to Highlander 2. Had they not called it Highlander, it would been considered a pretty fun movie. Sure it was goofy in some parts, but overall, it was pretty enjoyable, but it just wasn't Highlander, or at least not a highlander anyone wanted, and presenting it as such and trying to tie it in to the original just ended up shitting on the franchise.

It was completely ignored in everything else that came out after, and the franchise bounced back. Not that any of the sequels were any good, or the TV series for that matter... But the franchise grew, and reached new heights of popularity.

And that's what future Cyberpunk products need to do, is just ignore V3 altogether.... it was bold, it was experimental.... but in the end the experiment failed. Which is sad, because at all times I wish the best for Mike, Lisa, and R.Tal... but now the franchise is getting back on its feet, the video game is bringing fan interest back in droves, to a product line most people thought was dead and forgotten. And if they do it right, and pay attention to the fans and what they want, then they will reach new heights of success that were undreamed of previously.
 
To be fair to Maximum Mike, Cyberpunk V3 was at least different and a massive tool kit for me. But it wasn't Cyberpunk.

It was TransHumanPunk more like Diamond Age and Transmetropolitan.

I simply picked it up and ran with it
 
" But what makes a successful Cyberpunk game, is a setting that feels familiar, just around the corner... dark and foreboding yes, but plausible."

You know, that's really it. Or a HUGE part of it. Not the only ingredient, but an essential one. I like Shadowrun - a lot - and SLA is great, but part of what makes Cyberpunk so much fun and causes so much debate is it's plausibility.

It could happen.

It might be happening - there's a thread about it, there will be more and I know most of us have watched the prostheti/computer/corporate developments with glee and trepidation both.

So I'd REALLY like to see whatever the update is, include that one word of Wisdom's - plausibility. In some form at least
 
I have V3 but I really had a hard time reading it. Somehow font and colors didn't make sense to me, IIRC. So, give me black and white text any day or make a tablet optimized core book (like the upcoming Nova Praxis). V3 had some very interesting ideas that got my creative juices flowing to some extent but nothing concrete came out of it. My biggest problem was really that while the game had potential it was not cyberpunk. It was a scifi game, not cyberpunk :) Heck, it didn't even have rules for drugs! What kind of cyberpunk game doesn't have rules for drugs?

About GM styles. I tend to be a pretty heavy handed one. I don't tolerate back talking or bitching. On the other hand I am definitely NOT out to get the PCs screwed. I just want to get the game running smoothly. If players are not certain of something, I encourage them to ask. Of course they can voice their opinions and if I see that they are reasonable, I might go with that. But I have seen too many times situations where there have been arguments over rules lasting for hours during a combat scene that I am ever going to allow that kind of thing.
 
Oh sweet Jesus Ikirouta, I completely agree.
My local game store has a stack of V3 in one of the corners, and I'm expecting a sign on them saying "Pleas steal these" after the newest version for CP77 comes out.

And you are not the only one that loath players bitching and back talking.
 
I would just like to remind you all that cyberpunk is Science Fiction, not every scifi is starwars, star trek, a space opera or any sort of narrow interpetation of an entire genre. In order for it to be scifi it just has to its fantastic elements derived from some sort of science. Ie an invention or plausible natural phenomena. Back in the 80s when this stuff was some what codified Cybernetics, cyberspace, distopian greedy society were fantastic concepts and way beyond the realm of possibility, And frankly I'm pretty sure the founders of this genre would politely request to stop being so damn narrow minded what is cyberpunk and what's not.
 
I would just like to remind you all that cyberpunk is Science Fiction, not every scifi is starwars, star trek, a space opera or any sort of narrow interpetation of an entire genre. In order for it to be scifi it just has to its fantastic elements derived from some sort of science. Ie an invention or plausible natural phenomena. Back in the 80s when this stuff was some what codified Cybernetics, cyberspace, distopian greedy society were fantastic concepts and way beyond the realm of possibility, And frankly I'm pretty sure the founders of this genre would politely request to stop being so damn narrow minded what is cyberpunk and what's not.

I have one of the most open minded views on what makes something cyberpunk around mate.... but I think everyone agrees that the absolute bare minimum requirement for something to be considered cyberpunk is that it takes place in a near future setting that may be different, but at least feels familiar or plausible.

If you stray to far from that basic premise in what you call cyberpunk, then the term loses all meaning.
 
I would just like to remind you all that cyberpunk is Science Fiction, not every scifi is starwars, star trek, a space opera or any sort of narrow interpetation of an entire genre. In order for it to be scifi it just has to its fantastic elements derived from some sort of science. Ie an invention or plausible natural phenomena. Back in the 80s when this stuff was some what codified Cybernetics, cyberspace, distopian greedy society were fantastic concepts and way beyond the realm of possibility, And frankly I'm pretty sure the founders of this genre would politely request to stop being so damn narrow minded what is cyberpunk and what's not.

Not so much now. i have been running a version of 2020 as 2013... A in modern day role play called recycled men. It is based around guys who have came back from Afghanistan and Iraq, being recruited as test beds for a Corporation called Concordia and sent out to do ops. I think we are living IN a cyberpunk world as we speak and the idea that it is some sort of future game is no longer viable. We have men retuning to combat with cybernetic as we sit here. The world economy is in the pan and places like Mali and The big Two war zones are using PMZs to do a good bit of the OPs work.

What more do you need apart from last years Para Olympics making kids want to chop off their leg?
 
You have to be damn narrow-minded. Cyberpunk is a niche genre and you can stray outside the genre pretty easily, until it doesn't feel at all like cyberpunk, but instead like Star Wars or Star Trek or Logan's Run or Mad Max or whatever.

That's why Pondsmith puts so much effort into setting the scene, the flavour. It's definitive.

You can have cyberpunk and whatnot IN Star Wars or Star trek, but you have to narrow down your story pretty tightly. Dystopic, not too skiffy, out for yourself as much as anything, grit. Rain. Loneliness. Oppressed in the name of money by a faceless super-entity. Etc.

I like World of Warcraft AND Starcraft, but neither is cyberpunk.

A lot more things aren't cyberpunk than are. Thus, relative narrowness.
 
You have to be damn narrow-minded. Cyberpunk is a niche genre and you can stray outside the genre pretty easily, until it doesn't feel at all like cyberpunk, but instead like Star Wars or Star Trek or Logan's Run or Mad Max or whatever.

That's why Pondsmith puts so much effort into setting the scene, the flavour. It's definitive.

You can have cyberpunk and whatnot IN Star Wars or Star trek, but you have to narrow down your story pretty tightly. Dystopic, not too skiffy, out for yourself as much as anything, grit. Rain. Loneliness. Oppressed in the name of money by a faceless super-entity. Etc.

I like World of Warcraft AND Starcraft, but neither is cyberpunk.

A lot more things aren't cyberpunk than are. Thus, relative narrowness.
I was referring to a strictly technological point of view. I mean growing up we were broke, and we didn't really have a game shop near by, so we had to get creative wwith the D6 system and played in a whole bunch of settings. But feelings of isolation and a sense of that the world is changeling too fast, you try to keep up, but some new gadget is taking the world by storm and well you have some personal issues to tackle. Cyberpunk characters need to be flawed creatures full of the sins of mankind, capable of solving the situation in a manner but never worthy enough to be one to inherit a better world, he will though try.
 
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