Racism

[Snowflakez]

snip

Well said.

The only thing I would point out here is that I don't think it's "intelligent" vs "non-intelligent." People's life circumstances affect how they view the world, it's inevitable and nothing to lord over anyone else. I don't consider myself "enlightened" or anything like that.

Anyway, largely agreed. For example, GTA V's torture scene was horrifying to me. It made me feel physically ill. But I had to do it to progress through the game, and it made me think - something I wasn't expecting in a game like that. Torture happens in real life. It's terrible, but it happens. I was glad to be able to release the guy afterwards (oops, spoilers?), though.

Another example is the scene in TW3 where the peasant gets brutally whipped for bringing rotten grain to the Nilfgaardians. That also bothered me, because it was well done. The sound effects, the build-up to that scene... Very well-done. I want to be made uncomfortable in 2077, it's the perfect setting for it. It would be a mistake for CDPR to avoid pushing the envelope for the sake of avoiding offense.

You can't possibly avoid offense, as you can see from the Far Cry 5 debacle - complete absence of a political opinion, and people still get upset.

You cannot please everyone, so why try? Make the game you want to make and stay true to the atmosphere - naysayers (myself included, for that matter) be damned.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

The only thing I would point out here is that I don't think it's "intelligent" vs "non-intelligent."

Yeah, well, I don’t really mean that people are actually literally stupid (well ok, sometimes they actually really are, but I’m not talking about those poor buggers here). It’s just that even smart people seem to end up neglecting some of their smarts and perspective when they get emotionally passionate about ’concepts’ of possibly questionable nature that somehow end up touching them personally (and that does not always happen without external help and push) while dealing in a sort of environment that’s fertile ground for hivemind-like ’group mentality’, like social media or other (possibly already selfprofiled) internet message groups. I think this is demonstrably true with weird PC culture that’s running amok around these issues.

 

[gregski]

Now we're getting into political arguments. Because I like this thread and would prefer it not get closed, would you guys mind kindly leaving that stuff at the door?

+1

 

[Snowflakez]

+1

How'd you get a purple name?

 

[Suhiira]

How'd you get a purple name?

He's talented?

 

[wisielec]

On one thing I think we can all agree - CDPR will have to risk being offensive writing CP2077. Well, to think critically you have to risk being offensive while seeking the truth because when asking questions you will always come across someone who would find part of your speech offensive.

There are racial slurs that come from afrikan dialect and japanese lingua. I think we used just that in our sessions. Choomba i Gato were the most used for freinds and ones I cant remember in pejorative manner. Sometimes our convos were so upside down that from a linguistic point of view it was a marvel of its own. Coz we had (not exactly that but to pain the picture...) a black Slav who hated those filthy "Rasta niggers" (rival gang iirc) and a Caucasian Japanese who despised those "white devils" from EU XD

To challenge our view of things they should risk it imo. The more we question our motives or morals the better.

All in all I think we will face a different dystopian society. There will be more of a surfing on groups politiks than any of today's problems we face. It will be a group association I think. Race will matter only if a group will consist of racially homogeneous people. Like Red Elvis Gang - all native pan-amerikan Elvis copies. That hate every other skin colour.

 

[Sardukhar]

How'd you get a purple name?

He's my boss is how. Lead Moderator. That guy who responds to people who complain about us mods - and enforces the heavier punishments we have to dole out. He's...sharp of eye and phrase.

SO ANYWAY ALL.

I edited a post.

Politics in CPunk have to pertain TO CYBERPUNK. Yes, this gives us leeway. Yes, we get a sort of kind of pass from CDPR as long as it's on topic.

NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU GET TO DUMP YOUR PREJUDICES ALL OVER OUR FORUMS.

Try to be more subtle about them. And leave the soap boxes and side-picking at the door.


Yes I'm aware this is a moving target and standards of enforcement will vary. Want to avoid problems? Be very careful, very open minded, very considerate of others...or avoid posting in high-threat threads.

 

[Snowflakez]

He's my boss is how. Lead Moderator. That guy who responds to people who complain about us mods - and enforces the heavier punishments we have to dole out. He's...sharp of eye and phrase.

Oh, neat. I just assumed it was a rogue mod who wanted to stand out.

To challenge our view of things they should risk it imo. The more we question our motives or morals the better.

Yep, you're totally right. I think CDPR is precisely the studio that can raise questions without being unfair to any given side. Bring up mature themes and let the audience decide how they feel about it. That's the great thing about art. In many cases, it's not telling people what to think, it's leaving things open to interpretation. I can't wait to discuss those themes when the game comes out.

I really wish I'd played 2020 for myself. I had a group together and that sort of fell through. I bet I would have had all kinds of fun.

 

[Sardukhar]

I really wish I'd played 2020 for myself. I had a group together and that sort of fell through. I bet I would have had all kinds of fun.

So, as a GM, CP2020 is a great boon and a struggle. Boon because it can be so real. It's Tomorrow.

This means you can tell real stories, based in your real lives, or from real headlines. Gives it a punch no other game has ever had for me, done right. (Also fun to just run and gun whee crazytown..but that's a much lesser experience).

The struggle is because it is so real-ish, you have less crutches. No magic, no supernatural horror, no super tech, no vampiric curse, no Cthulhu to anchor a cool plot to. So you have to do your homework, come up with fresh and engaging stories and NPCs, remember that the players will be suspending very little disbelief.

If you do it right, it's great. Super memorable, relatable in their real world lives and maybe a somewhat chilling foreshadowing of tomorrow.

That's why racism and politics and culture are so important in a Cyberpunk story - they are a part of our lives and for cyberpunk to be it's best, it should reflect those lives.

 

[SigilFey]

Interesting discussion! I think it is a fine line to walk. An easy, perhaps obvious, way to dance around this would be to have the modern understanding of racism (or prejudice and bias in general) take on a whole new form. Basically, from what I gather, CP 2077 is a world in which it's possible for virtually any part of the body to be engineered or cybernetically enhanced. Why not "looks" as well. I mean, if I can have my skin replaced with "Real Skin" or my arms replaced with functional cyber-hands capable of transforming into scimitar-claws...why would people not be able to go into to a cosmetics store to simply have the color of their eyes, skin, or hair changed? Why wold they not simply be able to choose whether they want their facial features to be a certain way (almond-shaped eyes, rounder or leaner face, wider or sharper nose, etc.)?

In that light, basing any form of racism on "looks" would be silly, since people can readily transform their appearance at will. It would make more sense for racism to be based on social castes, affiliations, or beliefs. I'm firing blind here, as I don't know the lore, but it would make sense if high-society, affluent types looked down on the lower-class citizens of Night City in general. Within the high-society group, there were two more factions: one that augmented themselves freely, and those that refused augmentations except when required for medical purposes. The naturals were referred to as "nats" in the game, and they in turn scoffed at the "auggers" that looked down on them. Both groups stared down their noses at the "paves" that made their meager living on the lower levels, walking on the streets and pavement of the actual ground.

There's no need to work any actual racism into the equation. We could come up with whole new types of racism! ...

 

[Sooxzay]

At the moment there is again a big discussion in the web about racism in games.

Yet it is the game Borderlands 2 with the character Tiny Tina who talks in racist street slang.

There is a long list of racism in games.

for example:

Deus Ex HR in which is a black woman digging in a trashcan and talking street slang, some call it "she talks like a slave"

there are many other games which have black sterio type characters.

CP 2077 is a game for adults so should racism be in the game in some way?

What do you think about racism in video games and should there be racism or sterio types in CP 2077?

I dont even think there will be racism. The conflict in this world doesnt have anything to do with it if I remember correctly. While in the witcher series for example the whole racism reached a very high level of intensity.

Maybe there will be racism between classes rather than races.

 

[WriterV]

Well I believe it should certainly portray racism, since it is such a prevalent issue that needs to be made aware of. But it should try to not be racist inherently (which CDPR has a fairly good record in doing).

What I mean is, there can be a quest where you find a cop who asks for your help with an an African American guy from the lower levels of the city, claiming that there have been reports of him planning a huge theft. You arrive down there, to find that he did indeed steal, and even murdered another guy. You are about to take him out, but then he starts pleading to you, talks about how he had no money, and needed money to survive. And that he never intended to kill the other guy, it was a mistake.

And now you are at a moral quandary. You could either give him a job in the force, which may lead to the positive result that he could actually be on your side, but it could also have the negative effect that the cops will treat you with suspicion since you just assisted someone they considered to be a criminal. OR you could just kill him, which would keep the cops happy, but would ruin your reputation with poor folk in the area, which could lose you some help in future quests. OR you could just let him go and tell him to find some honest work, which could lead to other consequences.

Basically, the game should feel free to depict racism, since it is a very real societal issue and one that could easily crop up in a cyberpunk world like 2077. It should not be racist in itself.

 

[Snowflakez]

Well I believe it should certainly portray racism, since it is such a prevalent issue that needs to be made aware of. But it should try to not be racist inherently (which CDPR has a fairly good record in doing).

What I mean is, there can be a quest where you find a cop who asks for your help with an an African American guy from the lower levels of the city, claiming that there have been reports of him planning a huge theft. You arrive down there, to find that he did indeed steal, and even murdered another guy. You are about to take him out, but then he starts pleading to you, talks about how he had no money, and needed money to survive. And that he never intended to kill the other guy, it was a mistake.

And now you are at a moral quandary. You could either give him a job in the force, which may lead to the positive result that he could actually be on your side, but it could also have the negative effect that the cops will treat you with suspicion since you just assisted someone they considered to be a criminal. OR you could just kill him, which would keep the cops happy, but would ruin your reputation with poor folk in the area, which could lose you some help in future quests. OR you could just let him go and tell him to find some honest work, which could lead to other consequences.

Basically, the game should feel free to depict racism, since it is a very real societal issue and one that could easily crop up in a cyberpunk world like 2077. It should not be racist in itself.

Well said. I think this is what most reasonable people would like to see.

 

[walkingdarkly]

Ok I'm gonna start off with this, many of you are trying to compare our world to the world of Cyberpunk 2020, you can't really do this well here. These two worlds run parallel to each other
in a way, that way being it's our own world but in the 1980s in the world of Night City somebody shot that Butterfly of Destiny that changes things with a flip of it's wings with an AMR rifle with an explosive round to really make it count. The kind of discussions we have today about various -isms are not going to find anywhere in the world of Night City, in this dark world people are more concerned about living. Now despite that, you are still going to find all the hatreds but no one talks about them because its a world of survival of the fittest. This world is even more divided by class, race and economics, then you add in the booster gangs.

where you find a cop who asks for your help with an an African American guy from the lower levels of the city,

With how cops operate in Night City, unless you're a cop, you won't get asked and even then if he's from the lower levels and he's caught stealing, he would consider it fate that he wasn't shot on sight.
And for the pleading, the cops would arrest him with the quip "Cry it at the precint."

And now you are at a moral quandary.

Good theory but you will sadly find the butchered remains of morals in the gutter behind the burned out husk of a row of apartments.
And your story is like the one I brought up some time around the opening of the forums about consequences and going on killing sprees. Don't go ape on them hobos, Teddy Bear the fixer may be buds with them...and then you don't get what you want cept a knife in the back.

As for racism, it's going to be there, Cyberpunk 2020 may be all Chrome, Syle and Edge but it's a very, very ugly world.

 

[walkingdarkly]

a world in which it's possible for virtually any part of the body to be engineered

Or fully replaced with chrome...the only way to go cause you don't really need that pesky humanity.




Or fully replaced with chrome.

 

[SigilFey]

Or fully replaced with chrome...the only way to go cause you don't really need that pesky humanity.


Or fully replaced with chrome.

Oh...great. Shiners. There goes the neighborhood.

 

[Suhiira]

In that light, basing any form of racism on "looks" would be silly, since people can readily transform their appearance at will. It would make more sense for racism to be based on social castes, affiliations, or beliefs.
<clip>
There's no need to work any actual racism into the equation. We could come up with whole new types of racism! ...

Agreed.
There will always be people that dislike others based on superficial or illogical reasons. But in CP2077 I seriously doubt traditional "race" will be one of them.