Things you may or may not know about card advantage, cointoss and winning rounds

[Zarok47]

Things you may or may not know about card advantage, cointoss and winning rounds

Hello everybody, in this thread I will collect some basic knowledge regarding card advantage, cointoss and winning rounds.
Feel free to suggest things related to these topics or point out flaws in my reasoning.

Let's start with the easiest topic: Cointoss.
As everybody who plays gwent for some time will know, going first on round 1 due to cointoss is a huge disadvantage.
But why exactly is this so? The reason is simple: control cards cannot be used against an empty board, so now you have to play a strength card yourself (generally a bronze or silver one).
Not only will this show your enemy what you may be planning, it will also allow him to play control against you (including the right weather card). If your enemy plays control, you cannot retaliate since his deck is still empty.

So what is the best way to play when you go first on round 1? I think it is best to open with a gold card, preferably something at least 10 strength (Geralt or Bork being best candidates).
Control doesn't work against gold cards and most non-gold cards are capped at 10 strength, forcing your enemy to play at least 2 strength cards to overcome yours.
(if you are playing vs NR, he only has his 6 strength sergeant to remove your gold, opening him up for counter control or a sneaky decoy).
That being said, going first is still bad because your enemy can also go gold first, making this all redundant.

Winning rounds
What rounds are best to win? Apart from the last round, I believe there is a single best round to win: namely round one.
The reasons are as follows: winning round one will allow you to loss round 2.
Even though you will go first on round 2, allowing you to throw it will mean it is not much of a disadvantage.
More so, using cards like Ciri and spies will allow you to weaken your enemy while taking back the card advantage (most importantly because your enemy cannot pass this round for fear of losing it. You might consider throwing away weak cards just to make your opponent play more of his).

After "losing" round 2, your opponent will now go first on round 3, which is a disadvantage again because he has to win this round.

Card advantage
The single most important aspect of winning in Gwent, he who plays the last card can dictate the outcome since your enemy cannot undo it,
As such, your entire strategy should be focused on getting and increasing your card advantage. The more cards your enemy cannot touch, the better.

Therefore it stands to reason that cards like spies, decoy and Ciri are the best cards in the game of which i would say Ciri is the best of the best (and my number one target for Radovid).
Not only is she a neutral gold card and therefore immune to most control and available to everyone, she is also returned to your hand upon losing the round. Couple this with my advice to win round 1 and she is a no-brainer in round 2, making your opponent play another strength card while you lose nothing. (back in her days of 8 strength, playing her as NR on round 2 meant she got 10 strength, meaning your enemy needed 2 non-gold strength to beat her or play Geralt, both options meant the enemy lost far too much).


Optimal strategy to play the factions according to this advice.
If my advice is correct and taken to heart you might wish to play factions this way to maximize their impact.

Skellige
Win round 1, cointoss or no cointoss. Not only will this guarantee a round 3 (where skellige is strongest) you can also weaken your enemy the best in round 2, with cards such as skirmishers and queens guard which don't care about being in the graveyard or even get stronger from it. You also have the most (and best) spies in your faction, so you can play those in round 2 as well.
Ciri and decoy are must have's, further increasing the card advantage you want in round 3.
Last but not least: after gaining card advantage, your dimittrium bomb will be devastating as a final card.

Scoia'tael
You can dictate the outcome of the cointoss but since it's a 50% chance your enemy might get it anyway, I don't think it's all that necessary.
Exception being if you go full control, making your enemy go first is then a must for reasons stated earlier.

Assuming cointoss was allowed first round, you should do your best to win it.
After winning round 1, you then make your enemy go first on round 2, which he has to win, making him also go first on round 3.
This way, your card advantage get's maximized and you might just make your enemy go first in all 3 rounds or you focus on winning round 2 as well, seeing as your enemy has once again gone first.
Ciri is a must in round 2, but you can also play dwarves who stick around for round 3 to make your enemy play more cards (Zoltan is especially good for this, being a gold card that can be played first in round 1 and still be in round 3).

Northern realms
Since the nerf to promote and adrenaline rush, there is really isn't anything special for this faction in regards to winning rounds.
Therefore, you should focus on winning round 1, allowing Ciri (who is a 8 strenght for you) and Stennis to be played without fear in round 2.
With your resurrection capabilities in the form of Shani and Nenneke(+decoy), you can afford to throw a few strong cards in round 2, since you can resurrect them in round 3 anyway.

Monsters
For this faction, even more than all others, it is of paramount importance to win round 1, not because of your strength's but because all other 3 factions have excellent ways to maximize losing round 2 and you do not.
You lack both spies and resurrection options thus you have nothing to carry over your rounds apart from the RNG passive you have.
Only Avalach (draw 2 cards for your enemy's 1 card)is an option you have to gain card advantage: I recommend you get him.
Ciri is once again a must-have for throwing round 2.

Decoy is in a Monster deck more a counter card then a card that support a own monster. You can use it for decoy a spy or sabrina. Or in combination with caretaker you can decoy everything you want and help you, as example: Priscilla, Nenneke, Thaler or a simple Seargent.
As own cards are Nekker warriorr, Giant Toad (very good target) or Water Hag.

Special: operator spies and decoy.
A little combo I sometimes pull off in round 2, is to use operator on a spy card you have after winning round 1.
Not only can you play 2 spies, your enemy get's a useless one card, seeing as you could decoy it, or use it to make round 2 even harder for your enemy by buffing it.


That is all people, i hope your enjoyed this and learned a thing or two.
Let me know what you think of this in the comments.

 

[4RM3D]

Quite an extensive explanation. I agree with most of it but...

Therefore it stands to reason that cards like spies, decoy and Ciri are the best cards in the game of which i would say Ciri is the best of the best (and my number one target for Radovid).

Ciri takes up a gold slot, which is something you cannot always spare once you get some more golden (legendary) cards. Still, Ciri is the best (and cheapest) starter card you can get and works in most decks. In short, I wouldn't say Ciri is the best of the best, but it's the foremost choice if you have a free gold slot.

 

[Zarok47]

Quite an extensive explanation. I agree with most of it but...



Ciri takes up a gold slot, which is something you cannot always spare once you get some more golden (legendary) cards. Still, Ciri is the best (and cheapest) starter card you can get and works in most decks. In short, I wouldn't say Ciri is the best of the best, but it's the foremost choice if you have a free gold slot.

There might be better legendary cards out there that work better in a given deck, i agree.
But the reason i consider Ciri the best is because she is such an allrounder and you basicly cannot go wrong with her.
However, that's just my way of seeing "the best" card and that is really subjective.

Got any suggestions for this write-up maybe? I would love to hear some.

 

[shdcs1975]

Hello everybody, in this thread I will collect some basic knowledge regarding card advantage, cointoss and winning rounds.
Feel free to suggest things related to these topics or point out flaws in my reasoning.

Let's start with the easiest topic: Cointoss.
As everybody who plays gwent for some time will know, going first on round 1 due to cointoss is a huge disadvantage.
But why exactly is this so? The reason is simple: control cards cannot be used against an empty board, so now you have to play a strength card yourself (generally a bronze or silver one).
Not only will this show your enemy what you may be planning, it will also allow him to play control against you (including the right weather card). If your enemy plays control, you cannot retaliate since his deck is still empty.

So what is the best way to play when you go first on round 1? I think it is best to open with a gold card, preferably something at least 10 strength (Geralt or Bork being best candidates).
Control doesn't work against gold cards and most non-gold cards are capped at 10 strength, forcing your enemy to play at least 2 strength cards to overcome yours.
(if you are playing vs NR, he only has his 6 strength sergeant to remove your gold, opening him up for counter control or a sneaky decoy).
That being said, going first is still bad because your enemy can also go gold first, making this all redundant.

Playing Borkh as first card in first round is misplay that can cost you the match. The opponent has full hand to have a solution against him. Or he can easy play around him or in the worst case he can get advanced from your Borkh.
The best play is a card that support your strategies. That can be a strong Gold card for monster or simple pirates or a simple reaver hunter for NR.

Winning rounds
What rounds are best to win? Apart from the last round, I believe there is a single best round to win: namely round one.
The reasons are as follows: winning round one will allow you to loss round 2.
Even though you will go first on round 2, allowing you to throw it will mean it is not much of a disadvantage.
More so, using cards like Ciri and spies will allow you to weaken your enemy while taking back the card advantage (most importantly because your enemy cannot pass this round for fear of losing it. You might consider throwing away weak cards just to make your opponent play more of his).

After "losing" round 2, your opponent will now go first on round 3, which is a disadvantage again because he has to win this round.

Thats sounds like wining round 1 every price! Thats is very often a misplay. Wining round 1 with more then 1 card disadvanced is difficult to win, you can throw in spies in round 2 to compensate that, but you will not get card advantage back for round 3.
Wining round 1 is good and an advantage but not for every price.

Card advantage
The single most important aspect of winning in Gwent, he who plays the last card can dictate the outcome since your enemy cannot undo it,
As such, your entire strategy should be focused on getting and increasing your card advantage. The more cards your enemy cannot touch, the better.

Therefore it stands to reason that cards like spies, decoy and Ciri are the best cards in the game of which i would say Ciri is the best of the best (and my number one target for Radovid).
Not only is she a neutral gold card and therefore immune to most control and available to everyone, she is also returned to your hand upon losing the round. Couple this with my advice to win round 1 and she is a no-brainer in round 2, making your opponent play another strength card while you lose nothing. (back in her days of 8 strength, playing her as NR on round 2 meant she got 10 strength, meaning your enemy needed 2 non-gold strength to beat her or play Geralt, both options meant the enemy lost far too much).

Card advantage is very important. And i say it above, is more important then winning Round 1. There is a simple way to get card advantage without playing cards. Its simple High Board Power and pass before your opponent pass.

Optimal strategy to play the factions according to this advice.
If my advice is correct and taken to heart you might wish to play factions this way to maximize their impact.

Skellige
Win round 1, cointoss or no cointoss. Not only will this guarantee a round 3 (where skellige is strongest) you can also weaken your enemy the best in round 2, with cards such as skirmishers and queens guard which don't care about being in the graveyard or even get stronger from it. You also have the most (and best) spies in your faction, so you can play those in round 2 as well.
Ciri and decoy are must have's, further increasing the card advantage you want in round 3.
Last but not least: after gaining card advantage, your dimittrium bomb will be devastating as a final card.
[/QUOTE]

Skellige has the most problems to win round 1 without card disadvantage. So he need all his spies to get this disadvantage back. So he has the most spies, but he dont play last in round 3 when the opponent has only 1 spy or decoy against skellige. Dimittrium bomb is a good card, but not the best. It depends on the tactic from your opponent. Against control you want a medic as last card.

Scoia'tael
You can dictate the outcome of the cointoss but since it's a 50% chance your enemy might get it anyway, I don't think it's all that necessary.
Exception being if you go full control, making your enemy go first is then a must for reasons stated earlier.

Assuming cointoss was allowed first round, you should do your best to win it.
After winning round 1, you then make your enemy go first on round 2, which he has to win, making him also go first on round 3.
This way, your card advantage get's maximized and you might just make your enemy go first in all 3 rounds or you focus on winning round 2 as well, seeing as your enemy has once again gone first.
Ciri is a must in round 2, but you can also play dwarves who stick around for round 3 to make your enemy play more cards (Zoltan is especially good for this, being a gold card that can be played first in round 1 and still be in round 3).

Monsters
For this faction, even more than all others, it is of paramount importance to win round 1, not because of your strength's but because all other 3 factions have excellent ways to maximize losing round 2 and you do not.
You lack both spies and resurrection options thus you have nothing to carry over your rounds apart from the RNG passive you have.
Only Avalach (draw 2 cards for your enemy's 1 card) and caretaker (steal card from enemy graveyard and put it in your hands) are options you have to gain card advantage: I recommend you get both of them even though both are gold cards, limiting your selection.
Ciri is once again a must-have for throwing round 2. Decoy might be useful to, but i would have no idea on what Monster card that would work best.

Monster have the same card advantage cards then NR. And they have the easiest play to force the opponent to loose round 1 or get big card disadvantage in round 1. So they dont need so much Card advantage cards. They generate enough by pressing the pass button at the right time.
Caretaker don't generate card advantage, he generate Board advantage.
Decoy is in a Monster deck more a counter card then a card that support a own monster. You can use it for decoy a spy or sabrina. Or in combination with caretaker you can decoy everything you want and help you, as example: Priscilla, Nenneke, Thaler or a simple Seargent.
As own cards are Nekker warriorr, Giant Toad (very good target) or Water Hag.

 

[Zarok47]

Interesting argument, i will try to counter the points here.

Playing Borkh as first card in first round is misplay that can cost you the match. The opponent has full hand to have a solution against him. Or he can easy play around him or in the worst case he can get advanced from your Borkh.
The best play is a card that support your strategies. That can be a strong Gold card for monster or simple pirates or a simple reaver hunter for NR.

It is my understanding only NR can stop bork itself and only if they have the sergeant. This in turn opens up bork for a decoy.

Vs a non-NR opponent, going bork first is followed by control cards or making sure you play smaller cards than your opponent.
Either way, playing around bork or using it against you should be impossible since you have a full deck aswell and the possibility to pass. and the knowlegde what cards you need to play.

Thats sounds like wining round 1 every price! Thats is very often a misplay. Wining round 1 with more then 1 card disadvanced is difficult to win, you can throw in spies in round 2 to compensate that, but you will not get card advantage back for round 3.
Wining round 1 is good and an advantage but not for every price.

Not every price perhaps, but very often worth more than 1 card disadvantage.
Like i said, round 2 can than be thrown easily with cards like Ciri and spies, nullifying or just outright getting back the card advantage.
Even if you are at a card disadvantage in round 3, your opponent still needs to go first after he needed to win round 2, a severe disadvantage.

And you don't fear losing round 2 either, so you don't have to keep playing card after card eventho you're like 50 points in the lead, since you fear your opponent can still nullify your advantage and win the game.

As such, I think winning Round 1 should be a priority for every player

Card advantage is very important. And i say it above, is more important then winning Round 1. There is a simple way to get card advantage without playing cards. Its simple High Board Power and pass before your opponent pass.

True, high power boards in the first round can be strong but (as you pointed out earlier) I will also have full hand, and there are many options to nullify High board power (scorch, igni, weather etc).
And then we're back to throwing round 2.

Skellige has the most problems to win round 1 without card disadvantage. So he need all his spies to get this disadvantage back. So he has the most spies, but he dont play last in round 3 when the opponent has only 1 spy or decoy against skellige. Dimittrium bomb is a good card, but not the best. It depends on the tactic from your opponent. Against control you want a medic as last card.

I don't see how skellige has problems winning round 1 without card disadvantage. Stuff like pirates, skirmischers or gold cards like Ermion+ those ships that damage the enemy after a discard allow for a strong first round.

Monster have the same card advantage cards then NR. And they have the easiest play to force the opponent to loose round 1 or get big card disadvantage in round 1. So they dont need so much Card advantage cards. They generate enough by pressing the pass button at the right time.
Caretaker don't generate card advantage, he generate Board advantage.
Decoy is in a Monster deck more a counter card then a card that support a own monster. You can use it for decoy a spy or sabrina. Or in combination with caretaker you can decoy everything you want and help you, as example: Priscilla, Nenneke, Thaler or a simple Seargent.
As own cards are Nekker warriorr, Giant Toad (very good target) or Water Hag.

I still think that monsters benefit from card advantage more than anything else, seeing as that is the key to winning gwent.
Even if they don't need it as much as the others, it still benefits them, so i don't see a reason not to get card advantage.

And you're right about caretaker, he only brings back a unit from a graveyard, not put it in your hand aswell.

And good points about the decoy, as you might have noticed Monsters is my least played deck so i don't know much about them.
I have updated the monster section with your feedback.

Anyways thanks for the feedback, looking forward to your response.

 

[shdcs1975]

Interesting argument, i will try to counter the points here.



It is my understanding only NR can stop bork itself and only if they have the sergeant. This in turn opens up bork for a decoy.

Vs a non-NR opponent, going bork first is followed by control cards or making sure you play smaller cards than your opponent.
Either way, playing around bork or using it against you should be impossible since you have a full deck aswell and the possibility to pass. and the knowlegde what cards you need to play.

Playing control cards after Borkh means that borkh dont hit anything, so completely waste his power. NR will stop with sergeant one round before he trigger. So you dont have any change to react.
Skell would play Ermion followed py priest revive skirmishers, so you give the skirmisher +8 power in the first round.
A nice counter play is a spy against him. Get card advantage without board disadvantage is realy nice.

Not every price perhaps, but very often worth more than 1 card disadvantage.
Like i said, round 2 can than be thrown easily with cards like Ciri and spies, nullifying or just outright getting back the card advantage.
Even if you are at a card disadvantage in round 3, your opponent still needs to go first after he needed to win round 2, a severe disadvantage.

And you don't fear losing round 2 either, so you don't have to keep playing card after card eventho you're like 50 points in the lead, since you fear your opponent can still nullify your advantage and win the game.

As such, I think winning Round 1 should be a priority for every player

True, high power boards in the first round can be strong but (as you pointed out earlier) I will also have full hand, and there are many options to nullify High board power (scorch, igni, weather etc).
And then we're back to throwing round 2.

I don't see how skellige has problems winning round 1 without card disadvantage. Stuff like pirates, skirmischers or gold cards like Ermion+ those ships that damage the enemy after a discard allow for a strong first round.

When you are more then 1 card behind and win round 1, then you start round 2 this means you are 3 cards behind your opponent. This is so much disadvantage, that is not possible to fix for round 3.

Skellig dont bring power on the board. His warships needs targets to get power from the Discard. His skirmisher need first a discard to get powerfull on the board. So you can force him to pass or get a lot of card disadvantage when you play a strong gold card.

I still think that monsters benefit from card advantage more than anything else, seeing as that is the key to winning gwent.
Even if they don't need it as much as the others, it still benefits them, so i don't see a reason not to get card advantage.

And you're right about caretaker, he only brings back a unit from a graveyard, not put it in your hand aswell.

And good points about the decoy, as you might have noticed Monsters is my least played deck so i don't know much about them.
I have updated the monster section with your feedback.

Monster needs card advantage more then other, so i would always play avalach and decoy in a Monster deck. Would i say is that Monster has a good chance to get also card advantage with loosing round 1. Bring 22 Power on the board with 2 cards is not so difficult for Monster, but very hard to counter with only 2 cards. The most fractions need 3 or 5 cards to beat this.

 

[aspsnake0]

Playing Borkh as first card in first round is misplay that can cost you the match. The opponent has full hand to have a solution against him. Or he can easy play around him or in the worst case he can get advanced from your Borkh. The best play is a card that support your strategies. That can be a strong Gold card for monster or simple pirates or a simple reaver hunter for NR.

In my Radovid build, I'm trying to play Borkh in all three rounds. After demoting Borkh in the first round, in the second round I resurrect him with Medics and promote him back, and in the 3rd round I get him back with Shani. It doesn't always work (stupid Monsters' Griffins), but I haven't lost a game where I pulled him out 3 times
But I agree that if your deck can't restore Borkh, it's certainly better to keep him for the late game.

 

[shdcs1975]

In my Radovid build, I'm trying to play Borkh in all three rounds. After demoting Borkh in the first round, in the second round I resurrect him with Medics and promote him back, and in the 3rd round I get him back with Shani. It doesn't always work (stupid Monsters' Griffins), but I haven't lost a game where I pulled him out 3 times
But I agree that if your deck can't restore Borkh, it's certainly better to keep him for the late game.

What do you win when you depromote him in round 1. He is killed himself and nothing from the opponent. So you play 2 cards to get 6 power on the board.

 

[Zarok47]

Playing control cards after Borkh means that borkh dont hit anything, so completely waste his power. NR will stop with sergeant one round before he trigger. So you dont have any change to react.
Skell would play Ermion followed py priest revive skirmishers, so you give the skirmisher +8 power in the first round.
A nice counter play is a spy against him. Get card advantage without board disadvantage is realy nice.

Playing Borkh+control means your enemy can't do anything and you win round 1 without borkh hitting anything from your side.
And with control i also mean weather cards, which works wonders with borkh.

As for that skellige stuff, you just gave skellige round 1, which means round 3 is garantueed to happen and skellige loves that.

When you are more then 1 card behind and win round 1, then you start round 2 this means you are 3 cards behind your opponent. This is so much disadvantage, that is not possible to fix for round 3.

Skellig dont bring power on the board. His warships needs targets to get power from the Discard. His skirmisher need first a discard to get powerfull on the board. So you can force him to pass or get a lot of card disadvantage when you play a strong gold card.

5 points for skirmishers, 6 points for pirates right of the bet + discard ship which is another 5 points.
Even without targets, this is respectable power.

Monster needs card advantage more then other, so i would always play avalach and decoy in a Monster deck. Would i say is that Monster has a good chance to get also card advantage with loosing round 1. Bring 22 Power on the board with 2 cards is not so difficult for Monster, but very hard to counter with only 2 cards. The most fractions need 3 or 5 cards to beat this.

Yep, nothing like playing woodland spirit and summon foglets+wolfs+fog for 16 points and your enemy range row being useless.

In my Radovid build, I'm trying to play Borkh in all three rounds. After demoting Borkh in the first round, in the second round I resurrect him with Medics and promote him back, and in the 3rd round I get him back with Shani. It doesn't always work (stupid Monsters' Griffins), but I haven't lost a game where I pulled him out 3 times
But I agree that if your deck can't restore Borkh, it's certainly better to keep him for the late game.

Why lategame? To me, lategame is full of uncertainties thanks to less cards on hand and the inability to throw rounds. Adding borkh to that mix sounds risky to me.
Curious for your answer.

Lovely build btw, wonder if you can make it worse by adding decoy on the demoted borkh and then use operator on him.

 

[aspsnake0]

What do you win when you depromote him in round 1. He is killed himself and nothing from the opponent. So you play 2 cards to get 6 power on the board

Obviously, I depromote him after the effect, lol

Why lategame? To me, lategame is full of uncertainties thanks to less cards on hand and the inability to throw rounds. Adding borkh to that mix sounds risky to me. Curious for your answer.
Lovely build btw, wonder if you can make it worse by adding decoy on the demoted borkh and then use operator on him.

Late game is when many factions such as Skellige get the most power on the field and are most vulnerable to Borkh. If they don't play large minions in the late game (unless you do ofc), you have probably already won. But, as you see, this strategy fits control decks much more than combo or something-in-between decks.

 

[shdcs1975]

Playing Borkh+control means your enemy can't do anything and you win round 1 without borkh hitting anything from your side.
And with control i also mean weather cards, which works wonders with borkh.

When you dont hit anything with borkh, then you dont need him. You can play any other gold card that do the same. So you can safe your Borkh for later so that he hit something. When i play NR my start is most time a reaver hunter. The opponent need to kill him, because this bronze card bring up to 18 power on the board. And i play NR control.

As for that skellige stuff, you just gave skellige round 1, which means round 3 is garantueed to happen and skellige loves that.

Yes i give Skellige round one, when it is a fast round and i got 2+ cards advantage about him. So he dont get time to prepare his later round and with 2 cards advantage i can play last against him.
Skellige only love round 3 when they play last, when they dont play last you hit them very hard with a weather effect or a scorch.

5 points for skirmishers, 6 points for pirates right of the bet + discard ship which is another 5 points.
Even without targets, this is respectable power.

I think this is depend on the meta in your level range. In my range is the power from sk so low that he need 1 card more to win the round, that means when the sk loose the coinflip he is 2 cards behind without playing spies and start first in round 2, what is perfect for control and cost sk another card.

Yep, nothing like playing woodland spirit and summon foglets+wolfs+fog for 16 points and your enemy range row being useless.

woodland is a very powerfull gold card. I played a time with nekker warrior to copy the fogglets. So i hit the opponent in round 3 with a 20 to 30 power with woodland.

Why lategame? To me, lategame is full of uncertainties thanks to less cards on hand and the inability to throw rounds. Adding borkh to that mix sounds risky to me.
Curious for your answer.

End of the match is better description as lategame. I use Borkh as my match winner. Double scorch at the end of a round killed the most player and win the matches. Is a very good move against SK.