Weekly Poll 10/1/2018 - The Gunplay!

[Snowflakez]

Not what I meant.
I'm actually good at a lots of action-RPG and action games. Just not any which implies to aim in real time (never really tried rail shooters, though).
In my mouth RPG player means any players outside those playing FPS.

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2018

I don't remember a proposition making you a good shooter if your character is, only propositions which makes you a bad shooter if your character is.

You don't have to like the system, but it's still blending character and player-focused gameplay, which is the only realistic option here.

Unless you think CDPR will actually make a VATS-like system (or turn-based, or pause-and-play, or any other system like that) for the game?

Also, how are RPG players anybody who doesn't play FPS?

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Not what I meant.
I'm actually good at a lots of action-RPG and action games. Just not any which implies to aim in real time (never really tried rail shooters, though).
In my mouth RPG player means any players outside those playing FPS.

Would you mind providing an example when you say action games? I'm just curious .

It sounds like you're saying you have trouble with aiming accurately in real-time. So if the game doesn't require accurate aiming to select a target and hit them or has game play stoppages when selecting targets it's fine. I wouldn't consider this to have much to do with character vs player agency. Hence why I don't feel it appropriate to label it RPG combat. The more important reason is some people play both.

Incidentally, the last statement above is why I don't like the terms to begin with. In the overall scheme it does not matter. I don't like the tone set by RPG vs FPS player though. It easily reaches a point where a line in the sand is drawn and the people on either side demonize the other.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

You don't have to like the system, but it's still blending character and player-focused gameplay, which is the only realistic option here.

Minus everything I saw until know lacks the "The character is good, so am I." part.
So it's more like: If the character and the player are both good, then you can hit things.
Everything I saw is malus to aim and lacks of malus to aim (the latter being different than a bonus to aim).

Also, how are RPG players anybody who doesn't play FPS?

C2077 is both RPG and FPS, so if you are not here for the FPS part...

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2018

Would you mind providing an example when you say action games? I'm just curious .

A-RPG like the Tales of series.
BTA like Bayonetta.
Versus fighting (even if my execution is horrible, I usually win with good defense + good mindgame):
https://www.youtube.com/user/KakitaTatsumaru/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=0

It sounds like you're saying you have trouble with aiming accurately in real-time. So if the game doesn't require accurate aiming to select a target and hit them or has game play stoppages when selecting targets it's fine.

Yup, fine with me anyway.

I wouldn't consider this to have much to do with character vs player agency. Hence why I don't feel it appropriate to label it RPG combat. The more important reason is some people play both.

Well, If I had to label players who plays both, I just just say that they are both RPG and FPS players.

Incidentally, the last statement above is why I don't like the terms to begin with. In the overall scheme it does not matter. I don't like the tone set by RPG vs FPS player though. It easily reaches a point where a line in the sand is drawn and the people on either side demonize the other.

Well, you can be both sides at the same time.
But, as there is a but, there is an history about RPG parts getting stripped in licenses which were supposed to appeal for both, always in the FPS sides.
That alone can make people easily upset.

 

[Snowflakez]

Minus everything I saw until know lacks the "The character is good, so am I." part.
So it's more like: If the character and the player are both good, then you can hit things.
Everything I saw is malus to aim and lacks of malus to aim (the latter being different than a bonus to aim).

"In my mouth RPG player means any players outside those playing FPS." This is what you said. I was asking for clarification because I suspect there's a language barrier here.

I was just curious why you feel anyone who doesn't play FPS games is an RPG player. There are far, far more genres out there than FPS and RPG. Like, a stupid amount. Survival, base building/creative stuff like Minecraft, strategy, and then isometric games that aren't RPGs, etc.

At any rate, to address your point.

"Minus everything I saw until know lacks the "The character is good, so am I." part."

Sure. And? How do you make that happen in a real-time game that is NOT going to (most likely) have pause and play gameplay? What I've suggested is probably the most realistic option. A character's skills impact the player's ability and thus the character's ability, but player skill still plays a major role. There is, to my knowledge, no other way to handle this without VATS or turn-based gameplay.

You (and su and Kofe) should absolutely advocate for other methods, including the really neat-sounding pause-and-play idea. I actually like most of the suggestions and would be ecstatic if they were in. I'm merely thinking about what I personally believe is the most likely path forward. And that path unfortunately does not include those systems.
___________

Also, I think you are letting your own inability to play FPS color your perception of this system quite a bit. You do not need to be "good" at aiming to play a game with a first person, live combat system. That is what difficulty levels are for, and that's what aim assistance is for, and that's what smart weapons are for.

I'm not saying those are the ideal solutions, but you also understand (I hope) that people who simply cannot under any circumstances play a game like this to a functional degree are in the minority? Note, of course, that I'm not saying "hit the road, Jack, if you don't like it don't play it."

TL;DR: Don't mix up "this isn't RPG combat thus it's bad" with "I don't like/can't play this combat system thus it's bad." These are separate sentiments.

 

[Suhiira]

So what? CP is supposedly going to be a RPG. Where action RPG systems fall apart is when they're designed to cater to both extremes. I'd argue failure here isn't with trying to provide elements of both systems. It's with trying to do it in a way where a hardcore FPS player and a hardcore RPG player, neither of which wants anything to do with game play targeted at the other, end up happy. You combine elements of both systems to... please people looking for elements of both systems. Doing it to please each extreme only leads to disappointment for both.

This is what, I think, Su doesn't understand when she says it's impossible to blend the two sides in a satisfying way.

Yes, it's impossible to blend the extremes, as you said, but you can (and it's been done several times now) most definitely combine elements of both while preserving the fun.

I don't recall ever saying a hybrid FPS-RPG system couldn't be satisfying, in fact super fun, for some (many?) players. Only that it could never satisfy either hardcore FPS or RPG players because it's neither type of gameplay.

I don't like the tone set by RPG vs FPS player though. It easily reaches a point where a line in the sand is drawn and the people on either side demonize the other.

That's usually the case where you have diametrically opposed viewpoints. What else is new?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Sure. And? How do you make that happen in a real-time game that is NOT going to (most likely) have pause and play gameplay? What I've suggested is probably the most realistic option. A character's skills impact the player's ability and thus the character's ability, but player skill still plays a major role. There is, to my knowledge, no other way to handle this without VATS or turn-based gameplay.

From skill levels (considering 10 levels of the skill):
-0: 1/10 of the screen as a spread circle.
-1: 1/20 of the screen as a spread circle.
-2: 1/30 of the screen as a spread circle.
-3: 1/40 of the screen as a spread circle.
-4: 1/50 of the screen as a spread circle.
-5: shoot where your crossair is.
-6: 1/50 of the screen as a auto-aim circle.
-7: 1/40 of the screen as a auto-aim circle.
-8: 1/30 of the screen as a auto-aim circle.
-9: 1/20 of the screen as a auto-aim circle.
-10: 1/10 of the screen as a auto-aim circle.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

There is, to my knowledge, no other way to handle this without VATS or turn-based gameplay.

I tried to toss out a way to do it earlier.

My understanding of VATs is the game pauses when you select a target, shows a breakdown of different areas you can opt to fire at, hit chance and potential results of hitting those areas, and you pick an area to fire at. From there the game rules take control (do you hit or miss, what happened when you hit or missed). The only player control here is target selection. If this is a misrepresentation of VATs feel free to correct it.

I see no reason a similar idea cannot work in real time by tossing in a HUD element (pop up when crosshair is near or over an enemy, possibly earned or expanded upon with cyberware) detailing the areas you can target and the potential result breakdown. Instead of pausing the game play to determine where you're going to fire you move it to real-time with mappable control inputs. Say, I have button A, B, C and D. Somewhere in the options I assign A, B, C and D to different target areas. To clarify...

1. Shoot Head: Move crosshair anywhere over the target and press A.
2. Shoot Torso: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press B.
3. Shoot Left or Right Arm: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press C.
4. Shoot Em in the Personal Area: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press D.

To help people with trouble even moving the crosshair to a target offer an on-demand pause, but allow crosshair movement inside any pauses. You can further ease the burden by stealing a MMO concept and offer tab targeting functionality.

The only real drawback is whether there are enough inputs (consoles....), possibly issues with control complexity and feeling like you should hit the target but miss due to the roll of the dice. Presumably the first issue can be solved by contextual inputs (think W3, where you had slightly different controls in combat, out of combat, during swimming, etc.). I see no way to solve the last issue. Of course, it's not exactly different from VATs in that regard beyond having both real-time and semi-turn based options.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

"In my mouth RPG player means any players outside those playing FPS." This is what you said. I was asking for clarification because I suspect there's a language barrier here.

I was just curious why you feel anyone who doesn't play FPS games is an RPG player. There are far, far more genres out there than FPS and RPG. Like, a stupid amount. Survival, base building/creative stuff like Minecraft, strategy, and then isometric games that aren't RPGs, etc.

Like I said: it because we are speaking of C2077, which is both an FPS and an RPG, so player who are interested in it comes for one or the other (or both), not because of its 4X features.

You (and su and Kofe) should absolutely advocate for other methods, including the really neat-sounding pause-and-play idea. I actually like most of the suggestions and would be ecstatic if they were in. I'm merely thinking about what I personally believe is the most likely path forward. And that path unfortunately does not include those systems.

Actually I don't discuss non action system because I think it will not be in the game.
Each idea I say is real time (unless I precise otherwise when I respond something specific).

Also, I think you are letting your own inability to play FPS color your perception of this system quite a bit. You do not need to be "good" at aiming to play a game with a first person, live combat system. That is what difficulty levels are for, and that's what aim assistance is for, and that's what smart weapons are for.

Difficulty level might affect much more than combats. I don't want to kill my other experience because of the combats.
I did not see any aim assist, and smart weapons are something a character who know how to shoot should not have to have to hit things, because otherwise it breaks immersion.

I'm not saying those are the ideal solutions, but you also understand (I hope) that people who simply cannot under any circumstances play a game like this to a functional degree are in the minority? Note, of course, that I'm not saying "hit the road, Jack, if you don't like it don't play it."

Cause if someone wants to play an AAA FPS he can pick a game from a tons, where if one wants an AAA RPG he just have to wait for years (then learn it's now playing as an FPS...).

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2018

I tried to toss out a way to do it earlier.

My understanding of VATs is the game pauses when you select a target, shows a breakdown of different areas you can opt to fire at, hit chance and potential results of hitting those areas, and you pick an area to fire at. From there the game rules take control (do you hit or miss, what happened when you hit or missed). The only player control here is target selection. If this is a misrepresentation of VATs feel free to correct it.

I see no reason a similar idea cannot work in real time by tossing in a HUD element (pop up when crosshair is near or over an enemy, possibly earned or expanded upon with cyberware) detailing the areas you can target and the potential result breakdown. Instead of pausing the game play to determine where you're going to fire you move it to real-time with mappable control inputs. Say, I have button A, B, C and D. Somewhere in the options I assign A, B, C and D to different target areas. To clarify...

1. Shoot Head: Move crosshair anywhere over the target and press A.
2. Shoot Torso: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press B.
3. Shoot Left or Right Arm: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press C.
4. Shoot Em in the Personal Area: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press D.

To help people with trouble even moving the crosshair to a target offer an on-demand pause, but allow crosshair movement inside any pauses. You can further ease the burden by stealing a MMO concept and offer tab targeting functionality.

The only real drawback is whether there are enough inputs (consoles....), possibly issues with control complexity and feeling like you should hit the target but miss due to the roll of the dice. Presumably the first issue can be solved by contextual inputs (think W3, where you had slightly different controls in combat, out of combat, during swimming, etc.). I see no way to solve the last issue. Of course, it's not exactly different from VATs in that regard beyond having both real-time and semi-turn based options.

I saw that one and kinda liked it, even more with the ability to simply select your target.

 

[Rawls]

Actually I don't discuss non action system because I think it will not be in the game.

There are two entire archetypes already confirmed to be less-combat oriented. Techie and Netrunner. The solo is the run and gun archetype (and was the one shown off in the demo).

 

[Snowflakez]

I don't recall ever saying a hybrid FPS-RPG system couldn't be satisfying, in fact super fun, for some (many?) players. Only that it could never satisfy either hardcore FPS or RPG players because it's neither type of gameplay.

Thanks for clarifying.

I should point out, I consider myself a hardcore RPG fan as well. I play little else, actually. Most my of gaming hours are in PoE 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights, more recently Arcanum, but also newer RPGs like Skyrim, New Vegas, Oblivion, Morrowind, TW3 (not too keen on Bioware's latest work, but KOTOR 1 and 2 were good).

The difference between me and you/kofe is that I still enjoy "modern" ARPGs and still think they are indeed RPGs. I dunno. Maybe I was born at the right time to try (And enjoy) both types? Or maybe I just have better motor skills that make it possible for me to enjoy both types.

Actually I don't discuss non action system because I think it will not be in the game.
Each idea I say is real time (unless I precise otherwise when I respond something specific).

Apologies, I've misunderstood you then. Disregard my related statements, then. It seemed like you were pushing a pause-based/VATS-like system, but I may have mixed you up with someone else.

I tried to toss out a way to do it earlier.

My understanding of VATs is the game pauses when you select a target, shows a breakdown of different areas you can opt to fire at, hit chance and potential results of hitting those areas, and you pick an area to fire at. From there the game rules take control (do you hit or miss, what happened when you hit or missed). The only player control here is target selection. If this is a misrepresentation of VATs feel free to correct it.

1. Shoot Head: Move crosshair anywhere over the target and press A.
2. Shoot Torso: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press B.
3. Shoot Left or Right Arm: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press C.
4. Shoot Em in the Personal Area: Move crosshair anywhere over target and press D.

To help people with trouble even moving the crosshair to a target offer an on-demand pause, but allow crosshair movement inside any pauses. You can further ease the burden by stealing a MMO concept and offer tab targeting functionality.

I stand (gladly) corrected. This is a great idea.

There are two entire archetypes already confirmed to be less-combat oriented. Techie and Netrunner.

He/she is specifically referring to combat systems.

EDIT: Slight addendum, I would like to see more RPG mechanics that don't involve combat. Or hear about them. The dialogue is obviously neat and I like the choice in quests, but what about other skills and such?

 

[Rawls]

Slight addendum, I would like to see more RPG mechanics that don't involve combat. Or hear about them. The dialogue is obviously neat and I like the choice in quests, but what about other skills and such?

Yeah I definitely want to see the other archetype specifics, especially since I've wanted to be playing as a netrunner since like forever.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

There are two entire archetypes already confirmed to be less-combat oriented. Techie and Netrunner. The solo is the run and gun archetype (and was the one shown off in the demo).

I meant non action "combat" system.
Besides, from the demo it seems I won't be able to talk my way out unless I'm willing to let NPC bully my character, which is a big "NO!" in my book (were is my facedown roll when I need it?), meaning I'll have to kill things upfront anyway.

 

[Suhiira]

Thanks for clarifying.

I should point out, I consider myself a hardcore RPG fan as well. I play little else, actually. Most my of gaming hours are in PoE 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights, more recently Arcanum, but also newer RPGs like Skyrim, New Vegas, Oblivion, Morrowind, TW3 (not too keen on Bioware's latest work, but KOTOR 1 and 2 were good).

The difference between me and you/kofe is that I still enjoy "modern" ARPGs and still think they are indeed RPGs. I dunno. Maybe I was born at the right time to try (And enjoy) both types? Or maybe I just have better motor skills that make it possible for me to enjoy both types.

I don't have a thing against FPS games, I know many people enjoy them, and I'm happy for them. I just think that turning an RPG into one is wrong. They're different types of games. While many people don't agree with me different types of games have a different focus and require different mechanics. By turning an RPG into an FPS you're creating a different type of game, it's no longer an RPG. YES there are similarities, just like there are similarities between racing game and flight simulator, but they're not the same type of game, similar yes, but not the same.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

How do you make that happen in a real-time game that is NOT going to (most likely) have pause and play gameplay?
...
There is, to my knowledge, no other way to handle this without VATS or turn-based gameplay.

I offered a solution a few pages back already.

 

[Snowflakez]

I offered a solution a few pages back already.

Looking now.

I offered a solution a few pages back already.
It's not a long way from that to either smart-guns or specific cyberware opening up a certain combat mode.
Where:
- The player has the responsibility to maneuver normally.
- The player has the responsibility to bring the crosshair close enough of the desired target and press and hold a designated key (let's say RMB) with which the crosshair locks on to the target (and probably press Q or E or use the mousewheel to switch targets on the fly).
- The game then calculates a living range of hit chances based on:
-- Characters skill level
-- The weapons specific stats
-- The players mobility
-- The enemy's mobility
-- The enemy's distance
-- Line of sight and proximity of the enemy
-- Lighting
and applies that visually to a modified crosshair not dissimiliar to the one seen here at the camera:



- The gauge gives a range of THC based on the situation and lets the bar focus for a certain amount of seconds to reach the characters max chance before restarting or eventually disengaging (losing focus).
- The player then has to pull the trigger at as s/he sees fit (preferably at the best possible time as indicated by the gauge on crosshair, but sometimes there's no time to wait for that... it's basically a 2020 mechanic where you are allowed to spend a turn to take aim and get a bonus accuracy in the next... if you're still alive).
- The game calculates recoil throwaway modifier from the guns stats and applies it to subsequent shots (fast semi-auto; burst; full auto).
- The player might even choose different bodyparts (or other parts... like ones in that mech suit, or a in a vehicle) on the fly by moving the mouse towards them (not dissimiliar to how it is done in Kingdom Come or Crackdown) and the game might apply difficulty modifiers to them.
- Not much different from using ironsights in an FPS functionally, but mechanically more RPG and far less twitchy.
- At the end of the skillrange, the player has nearly guaranteed THC to close proximity enemies while long range ones might still miss.

Most of what's needed is already in the game. And this wouldn't even change the flow too much for the FPSers if they wanted to try it out. Relatively easily combineable with wall jumping and those timemachine drugs.

It's different. But it combines character stats to combat prowess seamlessly and without the player being able to compensate much (and thus nullifying the skills existence).

You did indeed, and it's a good one. Twice I've been proven wrong.

Seems an old dog does have new tricks every now and then. Of course, it's very possible you've mentioned it before, but I don't recall if you did.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Of course, it's very possible you've mentioned it before, but I don't recall if you did.

I have, quite a few times too. And way before E3.

Not surprised you don’t recall. People are not in the habit of reading and/or commenting my posts if I’m not sounding deliberately controversial (which I probably usually do; at least when looking at how my discussions tend to roll).

 

[Poison19]

I just went back and re-read it. It's a very, very cool idea (going to quote it in a spoiler tag here if anyone wants to read it), but it's not enough in my opinion. There are other elements of character skill you could implement alongside it. How significant is the weapon sway after the "steady aim" period ends? That could be reduced with skill.

So could reload speed, and recoil (Recoil is not the same as weapon sway), and bullet spread could apply to more than just hip fire (Although I'd accept that if it wasn't feasible for aimed firing).

Again, love the idea, just want to expand upon it.

Thanks! It can be widely tweaked.

Weapon sway depends on character skill as well. Weapon sway on low rank is very hard to compensate it resembles how the hands get tired from steady shooting (on low rank you are newb and not used to use gun) But with skill progression weapon sway reduces greatly so in skill rank of 50/100 your weapon sway is reduced by 80-90%. On rank 70/100 you completely lost your weapon sway and your aiming is just like in "steady aim time". But "steady aim time" is improves with skill too. Not only with the addition of a few seconds. Starting from rank 70 you will get aim assist for your "steady aim time". With a maximum rank of 100/100 you will have a huge aim assist for a few seconds and after the "steady target time" is over, steady aiming without sway. Everything can be adjusted with diffculties too. For example on high difficulty you can have redused weapon sway on 70/100, at 90/100 lost weapon sway, at 95/100 get aim assist. Or levels of getting features can depends on Reflexes or Strength, feel free to tweaking it.

"Steady aim time" is affected by actions too. If you jump or sprint in battle your "steady aim time" is slowly spends. As i said before it can be recharged if you are hiding behind cover or simply don't moving (debatable).

When you are shooting from hip you will have bullet spread which also depends on your stat, but not on weapon skill, but on Strength or Constitution. Bullet spread can be stat of the gun and Strength is reduces it. Now about recoil. You will have weapon recoil despite your weapon skills but it can be reduced by cyberware or gun upgrade, or maybe recoil can depend on Strength too. Again feel free to tweaking it.

I think weapon sway, spread (only from hip, because with ironsights you have sway) and recoil should be in stats of the gun, different gun has different sway and such. So each weapon has their own stability(sway), spread and recoil. These stats can be changed with upgrades and reduced with your stats. It adds some flexibility to my system in my opinion.

 

[Snowflakez]

I have, quite a few times too. And way before E3.

Not surprised you don’t recall. People are not in the habit of reading and/or commenting my posts if I’m not being deliberately controversial (which I probably usually am; at least when looking at how my discussions tend to roll).

Nah, I read most of what you post, but you have a lot of ideas and it's easy to get them mixed up.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

To me it was perfect as shown in the demo. Better animation (recoil) if possible. I really fear that high level enemies will be bullet sponges if you don't match thier level, like in TW3. That's my biggest fear.

 

[SMmania123]

I'm hoping for a mix of 3 and 7 it's called cyberpunk so cyber enhancements should I don't know enhance you.