Why are there STILL Create and RNG cards in Homecoming?

[FreelancerWhisky]

It's been 6 months. As per the Homecoming "promise"/platform, the devs said, and I quote directly:

"We heard you discussing the “Create” mechanic. At first, we thought it would be an interesting addition to the game, but — as time passed — we realized that this form of wide RNG is not something that fits our focus on player skill. We will be extra careful with these types of mechanics in the redesign process. That said, if we manage to find some cards interesting enough to include, but ‘too crazy for Ranked’, they will still have their place in Arena and Casual Mode. "

The implication of this statement was that RNG cards like Shupe, Uma, Create Runestones, etc. would be shifted over to Arena and Casual mode if not outright reworked.

And yet Shupe, who by the way has enabled many people to get to GM on regular Gwent, remains unchanged. Triss TK, one of the best gold cards in the game, has remained unchanged. Agura, admittedly a niche pick, has remained unchanged. Uma, a meme but still an RNG shitfest that has the possibility to highroll, has remained unchanged.

Worse, cards that USED to have set abilities that DIDN'T rely on RNG have now been RNGified, including:

Iorveth Meditation (Renamed Iorveth's Gambit) - Play 2 random traps from your deck.
Insengrim: Outlaw (Renamed Insengrim's Council) - Look at a random dwarf, dyrad, and elf from your deck, then play one.
Triss: Butterflies - Boost a random unit in your hand by 4.
Xarthisius - Reveal a random card in your deck. If it's a unit, boost by its power and shuffle back. If it's an artifact or special card, play it.
Holgar Blackhand -The next time an allied pirate is played, damage a random enemy by 2.
Yennefer: Necromancy (Renamed Yennefer: Divination) - Reveal a random unit from your deck, then boost an ally by its power.
Triss Merigold: Reveal a random unit from your deck and damage an enemy by its power.
Blueboy Lugos: Whenever this unit is damaged, damage a random enemy unit by 2.
Harold Houndsnout: Skulls now damage random enemies by 2.
Delirium (previously part of Blueboy Lugos) - Split 6 damage randomly between all enemies on a row
Fringilila Vigo: Reveal a random Special card from the enemy's deck, then spawn and play a copy of it on your side.
Elven Mercenary (Renamed Waylay) - Destroy a random enemy unit if there is an elf on the battlefield.
Vriheed Brigade: Damage a random enemy on each row by 2.
Deithwen Arbalest: Damage an enemy by 2, then reveal a random unit from both decks. If yours has more power, repeat the ability.
Vran Warrior: Whenever a unit is destroyed, damage a random enemy unit by 1.
Spotter: Reveal a random unit from the enemy deck and boost self by its power.
Farseer: Reveal a random card from your deck. If it's an elf, boost self by 3.

As to rub salt in the wounds, CDPR also printed new RNG cards:

Prince Villem: Play a random gold card from your deck
Gascon: Boost self by an amount between 0 and 11 power.

There's probably even more cards with RNG that I missed.

As a closed beta player with probably 1k+ hours in current Gwent (I turned off the in-game counter because I didn't want anyone to see how addicted I was) I am deeply disheartened that CDPR seems to be taking a step backwards and adding more RNG to the mix yet again. I'm not even going to get into the forced 2 bronzes and elimination of most tutors that further reduce the consistency of decks across the board, making card draw RNG take up even more of a central role. From a "focus on player skill and agency" standpoint alone, Homecoming is a failure right from the start.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I was wondering the same thing. All this time waiting and they still don't seem to know how to make interesting and balanced cards.....

 

[Orsest]

dont like it - dont use it, what a problem? i lvoe create cards and some random it makes every game different, what is your problem?

 

[FreelancerWhisky]

dont like it - dont use it, what a problem? i lvoe create cards and some random it makes every game different, what is your problem?

>Point out that devs explicitly promised to limit RNG cards to casual and arena or rework them after the backlash they received from the community due to the Midwinter Update.
>Point out that Homecoming seems to have added MORE RNG to the point where previous cards that didn't have it now do, despite the development plan for Homecoming which explicitly stated that they would focus on "player skill and agency"

Hey let's all ignore how the devs blatantly lied to us about the direction in which they were taking the game. Obviously rank 15 players like Orsest who just came from Hearthstone know better. :^)

 

[StrykerxS77x]

dont like it - dont use it, what a problem? i lvoe create cards and some random it makes every game different, what is your problem?

The problem is create still being in the game when the devs agreed they were an issue. If they were an issue then they will continue to be an issue.

 

[Riven-Twain]

Two points:
1. This is, after all, a PTR, and, as such, the cards may still be subject to change, based upon testing.
2. Moderator: Please, keep the discussion respectful.

 

[FreelancerWhisky]

Two points:
1. This is, after all, a PTR, and, as such, the cards may still be subject to change, based upon testing.
2. Moderator: Please, keep the discussion respectful.

1. Sorry but I ain't buying your positive spin on things. The last memory of a PTR I had was the closed PTR given only to streamers before midwinter, and they were so servile to CDPR they didn't raise any protest to the abomination that was Create. It was only after months of protest from the player base that CDPR finally promised to fix things in an update dated many months after the fact. PTRs seem to be only used for bugfixes by CDPR. You can't seriously be telling me that staple bronzes like Farseer, Vran Warrior, Elven Mercenary, etc. weren't assigned proper abilities yet by the dev team less than 1 month from launch.

2. I have edited my previous post to be more respectful to Orsest although to be fair I thought he was trolling since that was just such an awful, out of touch response (just don't play it lol!!!!111) that suggests he hasn't been in the community for long.

 

[Silas4179]

Triss: TK is hardly RNG. Her RNG is a lot more like Reconnaissance's RNG, except that she can also brick if the opposing player has a lot of circumstantial bronze specials. Uma's Curse is a fun card atm but is probably ruined by Homecoming now that all silvers have gone gold and awful golds have been added, increasing your odds of terrible Uma pulls considerably. It's a waste of provisioning, basically unplayable now. Shupe should have the RNG aspect removed imo, but otherwise stay in the game since Shupe adds new deck archetypes to every faction and they make for fun decks.

Aside from that I completely agree with you. The new emphasis on even more RNG is completely awful. Rather than learning lessons from Midwinter, they doubled down on forcing bad mechanics. I also find the new 2-of bronze limit to be a form of RNG, as it forces players to have less deck consistency.

 

[AurelionSolace]

My worst fears of having second Heartstone came true. Left Heartstone for Gwent due to consistent butthurt over RNGesus, just to comeback to Heartstone in form of Gwent...Thanks CDPR.

 

[redmotive]

Create has no place in Gwent. An element of randomness in *some* abilities...*maybe*. An interesting idea would be a card that makes an opposing card that say, deals one damage to five chosen units, and makes it deal the damage randomly instead. As a defensive tool that could favour you somehow. Anyway I'm just trying to make a case for it and going on a tangent of sorts.
As far as making a card do something random to fit its character and depiction, you could do many things. But create and creating answers... I think needs to go. There is enough chance involved in Gwent as is and CDPR not only going against their word but doubling down against their word... Has their pride gone too their head? Who's making the choices here...? And Uma, the curse that trapped Avallac'h. Do something interesting with it! Maybe let it transform a card into Uma and only let it revert is some kind of requirement is met. Design team needs some inspiration or something because I enjoy coming up with ideas.

 

[Pruny]

Tk create from oponents deck still in the game is abomination

 

[TV_JayArr]

Two points:
1. This is, after all, a PTR, and, as such, the cards may still be subject to change, based upon testing.
[...]

Come on, this comment is totally meaningless.
It's not a handful of cards that could be tweaked, it's not about a couple of points needing to be balanced.
The path is clear, it's a whole bunch of cards and the Gwent team seems to keep liking it, albeit they stated elsewise - as @Dr.Heliotrope already said.
It's disrespectful and disgraceful once more, and I am not only frustrated - because I had slight hopes, that I could come back to playing Gwent on a regular basis or even on a high level again - I just feel being in a constant loop of misinformations and misleadings.

I kind of repeat what I stated ~one and a half years ago already:
It's totally fine if CDPR wants to have a noticeable presence of RNG in the game, just be honest with the players and be consequent.
If that's Gwent, that's fine, it's not a game for me and I know that, therefore I can stop playing it and stop bothering myself with it.
But don't keep lying conciously - and I don't buy any excuse anymore - about how the game is about to evolve or look like, just to fool players and to abuse their naivity - probably even some sort of trust.

This first impression of Homecoming just proved once more, that the Gwent team has not the slightest of credibility anymore.

 

[Arnhermland]

Current gwent devs are hearthstone players it seems, because with each update this game resembles hs more and more.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

From a "focus on player skill and agency" standpoint alone, Homecoming is a failure right from the start.

Funny that you say that and then criticize a lot of cards require quite a lot of skill from the player.

Iorveth Meditation (Renamed Iorveth's Gambit) - Play 2 random traps from your deck.

As we know from Barclay Els those kind of abilities mainly rely on good deck building. Iorveth doesn't tutor any card, but only a special card type, such that the randomness is pretty restricted. And the player knows what he has left in his deck, so the longer he waits the less RNG it becomes.. Also, you can already restrict the randomness by deckbuilding.

Insengrim: Outlaw (Renamed Insengrim's Council) - Look at a random dwarf, dyrad, and elf from your deck, then play one.

The same as above, if you only include 1 dwarf, dryard ord elf in your deck, you will be able to tutor that one by default, which is pretty great.

Furthermore, the alternative to tutoring a random card would be some kind of preselected choice like with ADC, which requires a lot less deckbuilding skill.

And engines that damage a random enemy by a small amount is something that has always been a thing for Gwent. It is basically a way to balance engines without making them too removal heavy.

Nonetheless, I agree that there are cards with really bad RNG.

 

[Kingoko]

We need some RNG tho. I don't want to play (after meta stabilise) games when i made small mistake of few points, and we got still 5 cards in hand i already can forfait.

 

[Thunderscape]

They remove a row, blacklisting, most tutors, reduced the number of bronze copies, and limited the cards hold in hand. Also removed some archtypes.

They could at least remove CREATE.

 

[Theamos]

>Point out that Homecoming seems to have added MORE RNG to the point where previous cards that didn't have it now do, despite the development plan for Homecoming which explicitly stated that they would focus on "player skill and agency"

except most of the RNG cards you listed do focus on player skill as you can remove rng effect completly or atleast make it lot more likely to work in your favor with either how you play or with your deckbuilding.

Now I do agree that create cards are kinda garbage and cards like gascon, but not all RNG is bad.

 

[Orsest]

people jsut lvoe play same op decks with same strategy every turn without any adaptive, current gwent is no skill based its make every turn the same game , make every same combo, make every mulligan same, every thing is same in current gwent and dont talk about skill there is nowhere skill to place swordsman and ship , curent top decks and plays has nothign with skill jsut repetetive moves from game to game. Dont believe jsut type in google any deck and watch this deck gameplay from different youtubers lol aswell as streamers, nothing changes


RNG makes a bit different story

 

[Mancoon1980]

It's been 6 months. As per the Homecoming "promise"/platform, the devs said, and I quote directly:

"We heard you discussing the “Create” mechanic. At first, we thought it would be an interesting addition to the game, but — as time passed — we realized that this form of wide RNG is not something that fits our focus on player skill. We will be extra careful with these types of mechanics in the redesign process. That said, if we manage to find some cards interesting enough to include, but ‘too crazy for Ranked’, they will still have their place in Arena and Casual Mode. "

The implication of this statement was that RNG cards like Shupe, Uma, Create Runestones, etc. would be shifted over to Arena and Casual mode if not outright reworked.

And yet Shupe, who by the way has enabled many people to get to GM on regular Gwent, remains unchanged. Triss TK, one of the best gold cards in the game, has remained unchanged. Agura, admittedly a niche pick, has remained unchanged. Uma, a meme but still an RNG shitfest that has the possibility to highroll, has remained unchanged.

Worse, cards that USED to have set abilities that DIDN'T rely on RNG have now been RNGified, including:

Iorveth Meditation (Renamed Iorveth's Gambit) - Play 2 random traps from your deck.
Insengrim: Outlaw (Renamed Insengrim's Council) - Look at a random dwarf, dyrad, and elf from your deck, then play one.
Triss: Butterflies - Boost a random unit in your hand by 4.
Xarthisius - Reveal a random card in your deck. If it's a unit, boost by its power and shuffle back. If it's an artifact or special card, play it.
Holgar Blackhand -The next time an allied pirate is played, damage a random enemy by 2.
Yennefer: Necromancy (Renamed Yennefer: Divination) - Reveal a random unit from your deck, then boost an ally by its power.
Triss Merigold: Reveal a random unit from your deck and damage an enemy by its power.
Blueboy Lugos: Whenever this unit is damaged, damage a random enemy unit by 2.
Harold Houndsnout: Skulls now damage random enemies by 2.
Delirium (previously part of Blueboy Lugos) - Split 6 damage randomly between all enemies on a row
Fringilila Vigo: Reveal a random Special card from the enemy's deck, then spawn and play a copy of it on your side.
Elven Mercenary (Renamed Waylay) - Destroy a random enemy unit if there is an elf on the battlefield.
Vriheed Brigade: Damage a random enemy on each row by 2.
Deithwen Arbalest: Damage an enemy by 2, then reveal a random unit from both decks. If yours has more power, repeat the ability.
Vran Warrior: Whenever a unit is destroyed, damage a random enemy unit by 1.
Spotter: Reveal a random unit from the enemy deck and boost self by its power.
Farseer: Reveal a random card from your deck. If it's an elf, boost self by 3.

As to rub salt in the wounds, CDPR also printed new RNG cards:

Prince Villem: Play a random gold card from your deck
Gascon: Boost self by an amount between 0 and 11 power.

There's probably even more cards with RNG that I missed.

As a closed beta player with probably 1k+ hours in current Gwent (I turned off the in-game counter because I didn't want anyone to see how addicted I was) I am deeply disheartened that CDPR seems to be taking a step backwards and adding more RNG to the mix yet again. I'm not even going to get into the forced 2 bronzes and elimination of most tutors that further reduce the consistency of decks across the board, making card draw RNG take up even more of a central role. From a "focus on player skill and agency" standpoint alone, Homecoming is a failure right from the start.

In thinking because it was easier this way to develop the game. Maybe if we start another 2 year beta the cards will change into interesting non rng cards. I'm thinking the game should just be called Boost a Witcher card game. Anyway I like the design changes but going to take a long time to get used to. Would like to see more interesting card design as well less rng. Also hoping much of the effects get upgraded. Cards just disappear after being consumed or destroyed

 

[FreelancerWhisky]

Funny that you say that and then criticize a lot of cards require quite a lot of skill from the player.

As we know from Barclay Els those kind of abilities mainly rely on good deck building. Iorveth doesn't tutor any card, but only a special card type, such that the randomness is pretty restricted. And the player knows what he has left in his deck, so the longer he waits the less RNG it becomes.. Also, you can already restrict the randomness by deckbuilding.

I'm sorry but have you even taken a look at the cards in Homecoming? I didn't mention that Iorveth requires you have at least 4 traps in your deck, so by default it's going to create RNG high-roll cases. How? Simple. You know a scorch is coming, only 1 trap can prevent it. You throw Iorveth in, you get 2 bronze traps that deal dmg to the next unit played (I think they're called scorpion traps). CONGRATZ you have played a 2 point card and lost the round GG. Or worse, you asspull nature's gift (gold trap) and block the scorch. CONGRATZ you have won the round through RNG. How is this "skillful"?

The same as above, if you only include 1 dwarf, dryard ord elf in your deck, you will be able to tutor that one by default, which is pretty great.

Are you SERIOUS? This is SCOIA'TEL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. WHAT ELSE CAN YOU THROW INTO A SC DECK BESIDES DWARVES AND ELVES? Check the homecoming deckbuilder for SC cards and see how many elves, dwarves, etc. you can find. You literally CANNOT build a deck with only 1 dwarf and 1 elf. This is randomness HARD CODED into the game!

Furthermore, the alternative to tutoring a random card would be some kind of preselected choice like with ADC, which requires a lot less deckbuilding skill.

How, pray tell, does ADC require "a lot less deckbuilding skill". Do you even know how many decks run ADC in normal Gwent? Not many! Eithine Scorch and Henselt Machines maybe, both of which are underpowered decks? It's far from an auto-include, must-have card due to the fact that the first target is usually your spy and adds points to it which you don't want to do in most decks since that can cost you a card if opponent counter-spies. Now that silver spies are gone, ADC will be more versatile and require more deckbuilding strategy.

And engines that damage a random enemy by a small amount is something that has always been a thing for Gwent. It is basically a way to balance engines without making them too removal heavy.

I agree that engines that damage a random enemy by a small amount is something that has been part of Gwent for a long time. But this is limited to extreme edge cases such as Mangonels which can wreck serious havoc if left unhindered. The problem comes when a whole bunch of cards, 15+ of them, suddenly have their non-RNG abilities taken away and shifted to become RNG cards and RNG engines.

Post automatically merged: Oct 6, 2018

people jsut lvoe play same op decks with same strategy every turn without any adaptive, current gwent is no skill based its make every turn the same game , make every same combo, make every mulligan same, every thing is same in current gwent and dont talk about skill there is nowhere skill to place swordsman and ship , curent top decks and plays has nothign with skill jsut repetetive moves from game to game. Dont believe jsut type in google any deck and watch this deck gameplay from different youtubers lol aswell as streamers, nothing changes
RNG makes a bit different story

Oh yeah and if you're so good how come you're not in top 1k? After all "gwent is no (sic) skill based" and "every turn the same game". The only reason you think it's the same is because we haven't gotten an UPDATE IN 6 MONTHS! Of course it's going to feel repetitive but that doesn't mean it doesn't take skill! People have gotten to GM with Spies! People have gotten to GM with Henselt! People have gotten to GM with Foltest! Not everyone plays Greatswords.

Also please explain how it's better for RNG swings to win the game, how it is "more skillful" if I highroll an answer to your strategy? Randomness is the exact opposite of skill! Look at Hearthstone (where you undoubtedly came from). How is it better for RNG cards like Yogg-Saron to dominate games for months? Now instead of being outplayed you're losing because an opponent just pulled out an answer that you can't do anything about!