Why Hyperthin is bad

[hachri80]

I can´t stand these Hyperthin decks, that´s why . But seriously. I don´t think this deck is OP and don´t really care about the strenght of the deck, how often it is played or how to counter it. It (ab)uses 'tutoring chains' that shouldn´t be in the game and proved to be bad for the game in the past. After the infamous midwinter patch and the introduction of the create mechanic you could play several cards in a row (some creating new cards, some tutoring cards from your deck). Scoiatel could create an answer to almost any thread using several cards and and CDPR changed it pretty quickly. The old witcher trio was problematic cause you could play 4 cards in one round. Skellige discard was problematic cause you could thin to 0 cards very easily.

Hyperthin is even more extreme than SK discard and should also be changed again. In general I think that tutoring cards should not be able to tutor other cards. A combo like Menno -> marching orders -> Artorius -> Brigade is 5 cards in one turn. Portal is 4 cards with roache. This is madness imo.

I´m not really good with solutions but these tutoring chains should be broken. Either change marching order to warfare (or something else) or increase Artorius´ strength to 4 so he cannot be pulled from your deck consistently.

Again: I don´t look for a way to beat this deck, I just think the core mechanic it uses is bad.

 

[ardeathwinggwent]

Tutors make sense if we don't have mulligans, but having both....It's the same game, every game.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Tutors are not a problem, being able to chain them and having too many available is a problem.
Just take Menno for Ardal and Ferko for Syndicate as an example, both are fine by themselves, however (as mentioned in the opening) being able to chain them and consistently thinning to 1 or 0 (although 1 is given the gameplay of Hyperthin basically 0) is a mechanic CDPR has apparently not been very fond of (just take the "recent" nerfs on Discard Bran as an example, Coral was stomped because the deck was too effective), I would even argue that Hyperthin is practically the exact same problem as Discard Bran was (from a design standpoint CDPR seems to hold).

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

I dont know why you havent mentioned the fact that SY can thin down to 4 cards, providing almost perfect consistency each game.

NR can also thin to 4 cards with the portal, Roche and Caretaker package.

I dont get the argument why it is bad sorry. Its probably the tempo hypethin provides which is the core of your complaint. However the compaint seems to be unreasonable, as hyper-thin without the additional tempo can be bled, rendering it unplayable. And I really dont see why you want to make any more decks/cards unplayable, as was the case with SK discard. And besides, SK was nerfed due to the fact that people complained that SK had too much consistency compared to other decks at that time, which apparently was percieved as problematic. However, as it stands now, you still are not fully guaranteed to draw the exact cards you need each game, however with the availability of cheap tutors you are more likely to do so. Hence the current game-play is fair in terms of consistency across all factions, which is why NG-hyperthin not problematic but exaggerated to be, because it is a huge tempo play. Now, concerning the nerf of coral, it was a bit too much of a power play, primarily due to the damage output.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I dont know why you havent mentioned the fact that SY can thin down to 4 cards, providing almost perfect consistency each game.

NR can also thin to 4 cards with the portal, Roche and Caretaker package.

I dont get the argument why it is bad sorry. [...]

I cannot speak for anyone else, however I was just arguing from a design standpoint and stating that CDPR has continued to hammer down these "thin to 0" type of decks.
Beating Hyperthin is actually quite easy (if one can identify it).
One just 2-0s Hyperthin, at that point the opponent cannot thin the last 3 and the finishers are at best unreliable.
(Also teching Viper Witcher banishing their only large body means an instant win).

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

I cannot speak for anyone else, however I was just arguing from a design standpoint and stating that CDPR has continued to hammer down these "thin to 0" type of decks.
Beating Hyperthin is actually quite easy (if one can identify it).
One just 2-0s Hyperthin, at that point the opponent cannot thin the last 3 and the finishers are at best unreliable.
(Also teching Viper Witcher banishing their only large body means an instant win).

I'm sorry, my argument was directed towards the user who stared this topic as the argument wasn't too specific (concerning explaining the core of the complaint), and was directed primarily towards NG, despite the fact that we currently have quite a mouthfull of decks that actually can thin quite well. And the fact, that we have good consistency across all factions.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I'm sorry, my argument was directed towards the user who stared this topic as the argument wasn't too specific (concerning explaining the core of the complaint), and was directed primarily towards NG, despite the fact that we currently have quite a mouthfull of decks that actually can thin quite well. And the fact, that we have good consistency across all factions.

I just felt I was unclear and should clarify myself.
As for the original complaint itself, from what I understand the complaint is that, while all have at the very least decent thinning, the hyperthin is just putting it too far and making the deck too consistent.

 

[Archan6el]

Hyperthin is fine as long as the value created by a single card is within an acceptable range. Thinning cards are expensive. It's bad balancing of cards that is the problem. Cards for 9 provisions (Yennefer: Divination, Xarthisius) should not be able to generate 16 and 18 points on their own. That is simply OP and not balanced. These extremes based on RNG make no sense for a strategic game and will be exploited. A great example is the final match of Challenger 5. One guy drawing bad and the other one thinning and finishing it with the OP cards. Well played? Yes, both of them. The loser outplayed? Not really. RNG and OP cards.

 

[Raja_Rajan]

Hyperthin is generally agreed by the pro players to be OK. At their level, it is an OK and is winnable. But personally I find it a problem as they generate insane tempo, have insane control, and have insane finisher. In R1, it is very hard to keep up with hyper-thin tempo. It is hard to keep any useful card on board as they have insane control. And after doing this and forcing players to pass, in R3, they generate insane tempo. In last three cards, hyper-thin decks create nearly 45 points (18 points Xarthesis, 16 points Yen, and 17-3 Vilgefortz), which is impossible to be matched by anyone. And if we add Calveit, it will be well over 50 points in three turns. How the hell is this fair and OK for the pro players is beyond me. But if they say so, it should be so. For civilians though, it is too much to handle.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Hyperthin is generally agreed by the pro players to be OK. At their level, it is an OK and is winnable. But personally I find it a problem as they generate insane tempo, have insane control, and have insane finisher. In R1, it is very hard to keep up with hyper-thin tempo. It is hard to keep any useful card on board as they have insane control. And after doing this and forcing players to pass, in R3, they generate insane tempo. In last three cards, hyper-thin decks create nearly 45 points (18 points Xarthesis, 16 points Yen, and 17-3 Vilgefortz), which is impossible to be matched by anyone. And if we add Calveit, it will be well over 50 points in three turns. How the hell is this fair and OK for the pro players is beyond me. But if they say so, it should be so. For civilians though, it is too much to handle.

I dare you to actually play it. I didnt have much sucess with the deck, despite people on the forums claimed it to be tier 0.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I dare you to actually play it. I didnt have much sucess with the deck, despite people on the forums claimed it to be tier 0.

People are not claiming it to be tier 0.
I think we can all agree on the most busted current decks being Francesca variants.
rrc states that at a high level it is not very problematic, on lower levels however ...
There is also a bias based on how lucky opponents get, so I am not sure whether to state your perception or his to be twisted by that.
To be fair someone might struggle with certain decks, I for one (though admittedly I still lack Novigradian Justice) played DJ with Portal but quickly took it out again, from my experience it is extremely cloggy and defeats the whole versatility aspect of DJ, which is opposite to the way I play DJ, so I had more success without it.
You not having success with it is very likely the result of you tending to play decks with different mindsets and not being able to easily adapt as much as you would need to.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

People are not claiming it to be tier 0.
I think we can all agree on the most busted current decks being Francesca variants.
rrc states that at a high level it is not very problematic, on lower levels however ...
There is also a bias based on how lucky opponents get, so I am not sure whether to state your perception or his to be twisted by that.
To be fair someone might struggle with certain decks, I for one (though admittedly I still lack Novigradian Justice) played DJ with Portal but quickly took it out again, from my experience it is extremely cloggy and defeats the whole versatility aspect of DJ, which is opposite to the way I play DJ, so I had more success without it.
You not having success with it is very likely the result of you tending to play decks with different mindsets and not being able to easily adapt as much as you would need to.

I'm not having sucess due to drawing poorly in round 1, and getting bled in round 2. Encountering hyperthin NR, which can play Portal round 1, due to calanthes ability and outplay me, bleeding in round 2. Encountering SY playing poison in a simple SY-Gudrun deck, Dana poison, or Eithne Igni. I dont know what you mean with adapting, as it is quie difficult NOT to do so, as your strategy is straight forward, mulligan away your end game-cards, thin the deck, win round 1, shorten round 2, powerplay round 3.

 

[hachri80]

I absolutely agree that Francesca is the most unbalanced and strongest leader in this season although it doesn´t feel as bad as DJ and Foltest last season. I just think her provision will be nerfed a little bit and after that she will be fine again. So it will be rather easy to bring her on a level with other (strong) leaders.

Tutor cards are cool and not generally problematic. To use Menno to pull out tactics like Assassination or even Muzzle is totally fine. I just think that it is not healthy for this game if you can play 9 cards in two turns - that´s more than 1/3 of your total cards. One of the characteristics of Gwent is that you play turn wise and it is ok to play two cards in one turn but 5 is just too much and the cards you play through feel rather meaningless.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Meno>Marching orders>Roderick>portal>roach>2cards= 7 cards.
Meno>marching orders>roderick>Vigo>3x brigade>roach= 8 cards.

Just on a side note, Monsters can also play hyperthin, although it is not as sucessfull as NG version.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I'm not having sucess due to drawing poorly in round 1, and getting bled in round 2. Encountering hyperthin NR, which can play Portal round 1, due to calanthes ability and outplay me, bleeding in round 2. Encountering SY playing poison in a simple SY-Gudrun deck, Dana poison, or Eithne Igni. I dont know what you mean with adapting, as it is quie difficult NOT to do so, as your strategy is straight forward, mulligan away your end game-cards, thin the deck, win round 1, shorten round 2, powerplay round 3.

Well, so you do tend to face unfortunate matchups, which are designed to specifically punish big units.
What I meant was actually somewhat more general, I was propably wrong about the mindset part, as I was just associating another way of one's perception being twisted.
However that is the same kind of unfortunate matchups that people with heavy engines decks experience when they continuously get a matchup against Ardal.

 

[Imm0rtaleflame]

the same game every game is even without tutors...
or you like not drawing half of your total provisions at all

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Well, so you do tend to face unfortunate matchups, which are designed to specifically punish big units.
What I meant was actually somewhat more general, I was propably wrong about the mindset part, as I was just associating another way of one's perception being twisted.
However that is the same kind of unfortunate matchups that people with heavy engines decks experience when they continuously get a matchup against Ardal.

That is exactly the point, there are plenty of counters to Hyperthin, which is why this deck cannot be considered as too problematic. Thinning comes at a cost, and besides, the power play is just a better designed version compared to speartip, where you just slam points on the board, and that's it. Ain't much fun in that.

I like playing cards. Playing 7-8 in a turn is a pretty exciting feeling, whenever there is a rush for something unusual. And the invocation is a pretty well designed card that yields depth to calveit as a leader. But that's just my subjective opinion.

 

[hachri80]

Meno>Marching orders>Roderick>portal>roach>2cards= 7 cards.
Meno>marching orders>roderick>Vigo>3x brigade>roach= 8 cards.

Just on a side note, Monsters can also play hyperthin, although it is not as sucessfull as NG version.

So it´s even worse than I thought

Maybe it is more a feeling than actual reason but spamming the board with cards doesn´t seem to fit the strategic nature of Gwent.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

So it´s even worse than I thought

Maybe it is more a feeling than actual reason but spamming the board with cards doesn´t seem to fit the strategic nature of Gwent.

Talking about spamming the board, the NG spies/assimilate does so better than any other deck out there, and blocks the opponents side of the board. If you have any row-locked cards, better play them fast.

 

[4RM3D]

Meno>marching orders>roderick>Vigo>3x brigade>roach= 8 cards.

That's 7 cards. One of the Brigades is created.

Just on a side note, Monsters can also play hyperthin, although it is not as sucessfull as NG version.

So can NR. As a funny thought experiment, if all the stars align, you can pull 26 cards with one combo:

Syanna ready, then
Roche [1] + Roach [2]
|=> Fables [3] > Epidemic [4] kills Roche
|=> Blue Dream [5] on Roche
..........................................|=> Sile [6] on Roche
..........................................|=> HG Sword [7] on Roche
.................................................................................|=> D-Bomb [8] on Sword
.................................................................................|=> Regis [9] on Roche
|=> Caretaker [10] on Sword on Roche
...........................................................|=> Royal Decree [11] > Witchers x3 [12] [13] [14]
...........................................................|=> Last Wish [15] > Marching Orders [16] > Avallac'h [17] > Portal [18] > units x2 [19] [20]
|=> Villem [21] > Double-Cross [22] > Dandelion [23] > Shupe: Hunter [24] > John [25] > Winch [26]

This is excluding create effects, which could technically go infinite.

PS. The combo above is obviously not possible. It's just a thought experiment.