Writing a fantasy book series

[Nexus-77]

Hello there and congrats on your prologue!
I know writing is a lot of work as I've been writing as well.

I don't know how is it for you. For me the difficult part is not to lie to myself. I mean, not to paint a 'pretty' reality about any subject. For example: men and women. Equality. I don't want to paint a perfect, sterilized reality and/or perfect little characters. I'm really trying to be honest when I write.
Well, I'm not very smart so I have to be at least honest when I'm writing, especially honest because it's a fiction book

You talked about research. Today my son is with his daddy and here I am: doing a lot of research on nanorobots,nanomotors, microchips, the creative force of violence in Machiavelli(and I'm a pacifist!). It's amazing how much you have to read to write even the stupidest thing, right?

Knowing all the work involved in writing only makes me respect more the great writers I've read. It makes me respect even some of the bad writers I've read (not talking about those who wrote crap for money or fame, but those who honestly wrote bad things from the bottom of their hearts).

Anyway, I'm not sure how is it for you or if it applies to your story, but for me, so far, the hardest part is to write from the opposite sex point of view. Writing from a “masculine perspective” (and I believe in a masculine perspective now) is difficult, especially because I don't want my male main character to sound false or stupid.
The good thing - I believe - is that I like him. And some things he has said/done disgusted me. I'm praying it's a good sign.

Also, surprisingly or not, sex is another difficult point. Now I completely understand the “violence yes; sex no” in books and movies nowadays. Maybe it's nothing political or cultural. It's just that not everyone is Henry Miller. That "50 shades of Argh" is an example of how this subject isn't easy and can be wrongly used.

Anyway, I'm writing too much. But this little fever, this little book, has been something fun for me. I hope it's the same for you with yours. I'm not sure if mine will be any good though. If it is, maybe I'll enrol it in one of the literary contests we have here in my country. If it's not, well, at least it's written. But it's better not think about these things, huh?

Now, since we're discussing (ours) books here, why "seeing from the human perspective seems to be generic, weak"? Ummm... is it because of the dynamics of your story? Anyway, you said you're choosing the "judgmental way", the "god's perspective", so it doesn't sound like you think an 'anti hero' (an 'imperfect hero' so to speak) can't be interesting or something. It's just a conscious narrative choice of yours. Seems interesting actually.
Anyway, best of luck with your book, White, and thanks for starting this thread.

 

[Blothulfur]

Sounds like you've got the writing bug Tia. I've heard that there's two different types of writing, from the heart and from the head, and that they are almost instinctual. A great from the heart writer is I think Michael Moorcock, his prose drifts away into creative dream worlds, resolution and plotting arising naturally from the situation and truth of the moment. Whereas other writers adhere to form, function, and use every word and pause as a weapon in an arsenal of the imagination, frantic note takers and plotters.

Personally I think there's a bit of both in most people.

 

[SerieLis]

OK sorry for writing like this...i'm just loosing my mind, taking the different perspective fucked up the main lore of the first book, i don't know what to do with myself, i need more time to think, maybe i'll just put the prologue that i wrote yesterday as a stand alone chapter, the gods' origin story...and the reason for him to be in the lore...
I don't know...my head starting to hurt when i try to think more about it.
Huamn perspective makes it easier, for i already have 6 chapters, and i don't know how to connect the gods' perspective to the main story...

 

[octavian123]

I sadly don't have time to read the whole thread as I am extremely busy but if it hasn't already been suggested, I think you should read essays by Tolkien himself, where he describes his creative process like On Fairy Stories http://brainstorm-services.com/wcu-2004/fairystories-tolkien.pdf and also other essays like Beowulf The Monsters and the Critics http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r30/C...791679757-Beo_Tolkien_MonstersCriticsFull.pdf as well as the poem itself as it is quite similar to LOTR and was a huge influence on Tolkien.

Write your story as if it was real and don't abuse the fantasy elements because, as Tolkien himself states "And actually fairy-stories deal largely, or (the better ones) mainly, with simple or fundamental things, untouched by Fantasy, but these simplicities are made all the more luminous by their setting. For the story-maker who allows himself to be “free with” Nature can be her lover not her slave. It was in fairy-stories that I first divined the potency of the words, and the wonder of the things, such as stone, and wood, and iron; tree and grass; house and fire; bread and wine." In short, use fantasy elements only when necessary.

I hope these will be of use! The way I see it, you have a lot of research to do.

 

[Nexus-77]

Sounds like you've got the writing bug Tia. I've heard that there's two different types of writing, from the heart and from the head, and that they are almost instinctual. A great from the heart writer is I think Michael Moorcock, his prose drifts away into creative dream worlds, resolution and plotting arising naturally from the situation and truth of the moment. Whereas other writers adhere to form, function, and use every word and pause as a weapon in an arsenal of the imagination, frantic note takers and plotters.

Personally I think there's a bit of both in most people.

Thank you very much, Bloth. And of course I'll try to read him.

 

[SerieLis]

I have finished with human perspective and the "angels' " prologue perspective, I have found that actually the human is better...even though it may be found generic, but it fits the best to the story.
As you could feel his thoughts and emotions (As you probably already know...) instead i will put the angel as a stand alone chapter explaining his origin throughout the story...maybe in act 2...
currently i'm loosing my mind, i see the story beautiful, but then again, i'm loosing my mind, i'm writing the act 1, but i somehow fear continuing it, I fear it may not come out as i wanted in the end: the psychology, the judgments, the lessons, the weakness of human kind.
maybe i should put here the prologue, get your opinion, get tips from you, because it may seem you all are far more knowledgeable in this.
I usually try to avoid showing weakness, but everyone has his fall down in the end, i'm sorry...

 

[Blothulfur]

Gor for it mate, post and be damned, to paraphrase old Wellesley.

 

[SerieLis]

I think i did it correctly and uploaded the prologue to one site that one of you gave me (Thank you @Red0oG for the link)
If you want to view the prologue, click on this link

I will be glad for any kind of feedback, I don't mind if you're going to insult it, call it horrible.
It is still on draft, which means alot of things may change, maybe after 20 chapters i will learn so much that i could insert many more details to the prologue itself.
I'm thankful for all the support, couldn't feel any better without you.
I hope you'll enjoy it, and sorry for the lack of experience in this, after all, first creation i ever made.
I have no education on literature (a degree), but as someone who has passion to put his dreams and fantasy on paper, it doesn't mean i have to be educated in that formality in order to write it down, make it beautiful and let others' enjoy it.

 

[darcler]

I would sum up the prologue in two words: too much. There's simply too much exposition in one place. Keep in mind that since the prologue is by definition the very first thing a reader will read, you have to invite him to follow into the story. This means you don't want to present him with a challenge at the point where he's still deciding if he really wants to go any further - and being faced with dozens of facts and imposingly looking chunks of text is precisely what I'd call a challenge.

The first question is: do you really need a prologue? It's not obligatory, especially in a novel. It is useful when setting a stage in a drama or other play, with their rigid structures and conventions. A novel doesn't need anything of the sort, as everything can be conveyed within the story proper. And, frankly, I prefer when authors opt to do just that.

In a novel you really don't need to hurry. You have hundreds of pages to acquaint readers with the setting and the characters, so you have all the time you need.

The second question is: is it really important for the reader to know all the facts, to know the setting to such an extent? To answer simply: no, it isn't. I'd say it's even not advisable, as it distracts him from the very story you are trying to tell. In the prologue, even though the protagonist tells me his life's story - why would I want to know it in the first place? There is a border between characterization and overexposition, especially when all the facts are clustered in one place. A protagonist is a tool that both participates in the story and creates a perspective of the events that unfold, he's not someone with whom the readers have to become acquainted in such a detail, however pivotal to the story he would be.

The third question is about the form. What you wrote here is basically a report. That's the consequence of trying to fit too many facts too close to each other, and it's another reason to avoid creating such fact clusters. If you introduce facts gradually, you can differ the form in which they are introduced, use dialogue, anecdotes, incorporate them into the story. Besides, not all the facts have to be told directly - they can be left for the readers to extrapolate.

Apart from that, you must work on simplifying your text. As it is right now, it's uncomfortable to read. Simplify sentences, you usually don't need them complex and compound. The same goes for paragraphs. Especially the one "Twenty five years have passed" is a huge wall of text - and it too is, at least partially, a consequence of overexposition. Splitting it into 6 or 10 or more parts would be advisable.

That's from me for now. A high-level review, but I believe the things I mentioned would need to be resolved first before we go any deeper.

Having said that, heads up! It's a start, and as such it's something that can now be worked and shaped and improved. Not the most thrilling work, but a writer's task nonetheless.

 

[GuyNwah]

I want to approach this by being critical first and constructive after, just because there are some practical points I need to address first. I have to agree with @darcler -- the prologue is too busy, too expository, and because of that, it doesn't tease the reader into going deeper.

The best prologues are not just explanations: they are a single story or a single plea that is the foundation of the entire tale. Like the famous Prologues of I Pagliacci, "...A nest of memories in the depths of his soul sang one day, and with real tears he wrote..." or the Wife of Bath's Tale, "...Thanks be to God Who is for aye alive, Of husbands at church door have I had five; For men so many times have wedded me; And all were worthy men in their degree..."

So what would I do? I would approach the Prologue in a completely different way; I would not write it yet. Instead, I would take what you made into a Prologue, and make it the first few chapters.

What incident made it so that your smithy must be outside of town? Tell a story about it.
How ruthless and avaricious is your king? Tell a story about it.
Why is it said that your grandfather has hands of gold, and your father says his own hands are only of silver? It sounds like there must be a wonderful story behind it; tell us.
How terrible a blacksmith were you when you just started? You can probably tell a hilarious story about it. Tell it.
How'd you get engaged to Agatha? What manner of fun and trouble does Giles get himself into? How is Curtis's wisdom evident? Why does nobody from your village go into the woods or travel? These are all not facts that want enumerating, they are stories that want telling. Even if it seems like a distraction, tell them. You may find that they are more important than your original purpose.

You're full of stories. We're all eyes and ears ready to hear and read them. Tell us a story.

 

[Blothulfur]

For me as a reader i'll have to agree with Darcler and Guy, too much exposition drowning you when you dive in, however I do feel that the setting might be interesting if fleshed out. Why is the king ruthless and why are the taxes high? What are his good points to counterbalance the bad? Would your blacksmith know of other countries ruled by other kings, one assumes that your protagonist and the visitors to the smithy will not go beyond the local market town, so whom brings news and where do they hear it? As a blacksmith do you work as a farrier, is that a profitable business? Are there well kept roads, and who maintains and pays (taxes) for them?

I would not put the smithy on its own, risk of fire is not so high so long as the building is made of stone, and commonly you'd want to be behind the villages stockade come nightfall. After all with a tyrannical king bleeding people dry there must be bandits and smugglers about, men fallen on hard times who lose their morals when faced with empty bellies. Also a smith shouldn't need to buy tools, he makes his own as a point of pride. If you feel that the smithy must be a lonely place then perhaps make it part of an inn, a small business that serves the travellers who stop there. A limited scope is sometimes very good for in depth writing.

I would carve it up and make flashbacks of the important points, Golden Hands mastery of his craft, the demand for his wares, what he was like and how you interacted with him, his death and how it affected you. A tight family unit is one inescapable part of life in poverty, you'll probably all live cheek by jowl above or at the side of the smithy. If it's a medieval fantasy how many of your siblings have died of sickness, and how many survive, what are they doing now? Question everything and the answers will make your story appear in my experience.

Edit: Also scenery, what is the land you live in like, bleak desolate moorlands, waving golden fields of wheat reaching as far as the eye can see, forested glens, alpine valleys etcetera.

 

[SerieLis]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but thank you for the replies...

According to what i understood from you, i should take the prologue and separate it to few chapters in the beginning to bring a complete story.
Using simplified sentences, more detailed characters, more detailed scenery, and more details about each the questions that you asked here, to make the story more complete with less holes.
Not using it as a report as Darcel mention.
I guess the prologue wasn't so necessary, but it was a way to give sort of an exposition to the beginning, so you could replay and help me by the feedback you given me.
I'll guess i'll create a story about each of the things in the prologue, although it may seem that i'll go for quantity, i'll try to avoid that.
Even though these are not the main story that I want to tell, but we still have time before the main story.

 

[Blothulfur]

If you want to dive straight into your narrative do so, and reference the things in your prologue as they arise naturally in the story, perfectly valid and far better paced method.

 

[darcler]

It's not an easy thing to do the setting right, especially in fantastic fiction, where you create custom reality. If you base the story in the real world, you obviously need some work doing research, but the setting is pretty much already done. You might want to push it in a certain way to suit your needs (post-apocalyptic, for instance), but readers will be able to easily understand what's it all about. With custom world things are drastically different. First you need to create everything you need. Here having a good idea about the scope of the story you want to write and the direction it's going to take is very useful, as it will allow you to plan your work as the demiurge. Warring kingdoms? Think about geography, economy, politics, political history, important people, their history, relations to one another, etc. Religion? Dwell on ontology, theology, mythology, religion's role in the society, beliefs and so on. Good ol' adventuring? Here you'll need a lot of general backstory, preferably varied and non-trivial. And so on, and so forth. It's good to create as detailed picture of your reality as you can, even though you will not show all of it to your readers. Keep in mind that the setting will serve not only as a neat background for the lives of your protagonists, but it will also define them, as well as their lives. This I even dared to underscore, as it's one of the most important, yet also one of commonly omitted things that a good novel should have. More experienced (or simply critical) readers will quickly notice any discrepancy between a character and the reality in which he supposedly has been immersed. A cheerful young man with a bunch of dreams is hardly someone you'd expect to come out of a war-ravaged land where there is only hunger and disease, and where each day is a struggle for bare survival. And if someone like that really comes out of such hellhole (admittedly not something physically impossible), it will need your attention and explanation.

The above is important even if you decide on following the less 'realistic' and more 'fantastic' way. In that case simply the emphasis on various things will change, along with presentation.

Having broad knowledge is very useful here, as it will allow you to see certain patterns of causality. No single thing in our world exists in a void, and so should be in any imaginary world. BTW, I have an example here. I'm currently replaying DAO (preparing myself for DAI ), and at some time a question came into my mind: why do dwarves need a calendar? I mean, it's not a silly whim on their part, too. They use it on a daily basis, they even chronicle their history (very venerated, no less) with a calendar for Maker knows how long. To explain my confusion: even though today we usually treat calendars as nothing more than a simple and useful thing, in fact it is one of the most crucial inventions of humankind. Calendars helped to understand the world humans lived in, they allowed to understand the cycles the world works in, allowed to define seasons that were not based on subjective observations, but on objective facts. This in turn allowed humans to know when to plant seeds and when to reap the harvest, allowing them to settle down instead of wander, developing agriculture - and that in itself had an enormous impact on humanity. All thanks to tracking celestial bodies and learning from the observations. (It had other implications, too; think cycles, spring-summer-autumn-winter, birth-youth-decline-death, seeds are planted-they grow-they are harvested, something ends and something begins, since times immemorial and into eternity; also every religion has the world cycles rooted somewhere inside, as there is the beginning of creation and the ultimate end of all things, there are gods of life and gods of death, there is birth and rebirth in the everlasting cycle.) So, now back to dwarves: they live underground, so they don't have the conditions to observe the sky, and they don't really have any reason to do so in the first place, as they are sheltered from weather and seasons. It's not clear how exactly they produce all their food (besides growing some weird underground plants and breeding nugs), but it obviously couldn't have been on the surface (their civilization is based on being underground). In other words, they had no reason to develop a calendar, and yet they use it like us, the above-ground creatures who need to grow their crops to survive. Obviously the dwarves could develop their own time-tracking system (useful for recording history and synchronizing the working of society), but it would have to look and work differently, as it would be based on something else than celestial bodies, and it would be created out of different and less critical needs.

Now, where was I... Right, that was about creating a setting. Lots of things to pay attention to, lots of factors to dwell on, lots of dots to connect. But then there is the presentation. Since the setting will be your very own, only you will know how it works, so you'll have to convey a lot of information to your readers, teach them about your creation. The simplest thing to do is the so-called exposition: you pause the story for a bit and use the time to provide readers with some information you deem appropriate at the moment. Having done that you unpause the story and everything moves along, with readers knowing something more about what's going on. Don't get me wrong: exposition is a completely viable way of conveying information, and you don't have to avoid it like fire. But you also have to be careful where you place it, for how long, and if it's really the best way in the specific place of the story. There was that book, for instance, where at its culmination a big and flashy showndown in space was unfolding, and the author came in with a dozen-page long fucking lecture about the history of hyperspace drives and FTL travel. I wanted at the time to go wherever he lives and bash his head with the book. David Weber's "On Basilisk Station" has that great example of how to not do exposition, as far as I'm concerned

Exposition always diverts attention from whatever is happening in the story, and it slows things down. It's good when you want to make a breather (action-overpacked story can also easily get boring). It can be told by the narrator, but it also can be presented in other ways, for example as a dialogue (people sitting in a tavern and telling stories), as some quotes at the beginning of each chapter, even as brief sub-stories unrelated to the main story and stuffed in between its chapters. Variation is necessary to keeping things interesting.

But you don't have to use exposition at all, and yet convey all the required information anyway. Instead of describing - show. You don't have to say someone's strong - show him carrying an ox or something Incorporate bit of info here, bit of info there, allow readers to come with their own conclusions. Instead of saying king Daron was ruthless and enjoyed bringing pain to peasants, present an event where a group of retainers comes to a village, their leader barges into someone's house, takes someone's daughter, kills someone else, etc. But be careful. Just because king Daron enjoys bringing pain to peasants doesn't mean his retainers enjoy it as well. Some may use the situation to rob the villagers, some may use it to settle the score with this baker or that brewer, some will simply follow orders... Especially since the retainers in question also could likely come from villages like that.

Keeping things in motion will keep readers interested - well, at least more interested than when simply presenting them with bland report of how things were.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

@TheWhiteBleidd , I am going to humbly chime in with some recommendations.
Master the basics of literature. They transcend genre.

I have read these and recommend them without hesitation.

1. Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee.
The book is phenomenal. A must read. If I had to pick just one, this would be it.

2. Stein on Writing by Sol Stein
Very comprehensive. Solid advice across the board, including nonfiction.

3. Self-editibg for fiction writers by Renni Browne and Dave King
Filled with precise, tried and tested advice on all areas of fiction writing.

 

[luc0s]

I'm probably boring you all, and you're not interested in the whole written above.

It's this attitude that bores me to tears.

Don't think for others, think for yourself. Do what you want, don't worry about what others might think because you don't know what others might think and you will never know until you actually share your work and ask for feedback.

I might come of as a bit stern, but I honestly mean well.

 

[SerieLis]

It's this attitude that bores me to tears.

Don't think for others, think for yourself. Do what you want, don't worry about what others might think because you don't know what others might think and you will never know until you actually share your work and ask for feedback.

I might come of as a bit stern, but I honestly mean well.

I wrote that when i was insecure... but after a while and few months it got better, if you read most of what is going on here, i actually posted some of the work...
some people are\were very welcoming, got alot of tips and saw different work of many other people that posted here, knew how to properly start and continue the work as i want.
It was the first post that i have ever created since i joined the forums, so i didn't know how it was going on here, who are the people.

 

[Blothulfur]

Don't worry about it Bleidd, great actors get nervous when going on stage, conductors upon the rising of the curtain etcetera. When we expose our creations and thoughts to others we're all vulnerable, and nervousness is perfectly natural, especially in front of a bunch of rowdy gruff strangers.

 

[SerieLis]

Don't worry about it Bleidd, great actors get nervous when going on stage, conductors upon the rising of the curtain etcetera. When we expose our creations and thoughts to others we're all vulnerable, and nervousness is perfectly natural, especially in front of a bunch of rowdy gruff strangers.

Have to say, i love the way you speak.

 

[luc0s]

I wrote that when i was insecure... but after a while and few months it got better, if you read most of what is going on here, i actually posted some of the work...
some people are\were very welcoming, got alot of tips and saw different work of many other people that posted here, knew how to properly start and continue the work as i want.
It was the first post that i have ever created since i joined the forums, so i didn't know how it was going on here, who are the people.

Well that's great to hear. I'm glad you got some useful feedback from the folks around here. Also great to hear that you improved yourself and are less insecure now. As long as there is progression in yourself and your work you have every reason to be proud of yourself.