CRIME AND THE CITY.... crime as a dynamic element...

[Lisbeth_Salander]

The industry will not tolerate another illusionist, so shit must get real.

Games like Fallout and Elders Scrolls Skyrim have litte to no competition in the industry because they're the few with that level of freedom related to both character and world aspects.

Witcher 3 has better graphics, engine and is more polished than all Bethesda games but it had a more linear since you had to roleplay as Geralt. CDPR already makes superior games to Bethesda in all aspects except characters' freedom.

So Cyberpunk 2077 will be more economically successfull if it gives players more freedom to their characters something that can be translated from creating to customizing the main protagonist, by having different classes, etc.

Spoiler

Iwinski even said that when making Witcher 1, publishers wanted CDPR to make players be able to have different classes , since according to them (publishers) that's what most gamers want. The publishers were right.

PS: In the official blog it is stated that games like Skyrim, Baldurs Gate and Fallout 2 will inspire Cyberpunk 2077. All of them having character creation.

 

[Snowflakez]

Games like Fallout and Elders Scrolls Skyrim have litte to no competition in the industry because they're the few with that level of freedom related to both character and world aspects.

Witcher 3 has better graphics, engine and is more polished than all Bethesda games but it had a more linear since you had to roleplay as Geralt. CDPR already makes superior games to Bethesda in all aspects except characters' freedom.

So Cyberpunk 2077 will be more economically successfull if it gives players more freedom to their characters something that can be translated from creating to customizing the main protagonist, by having different classes, etc.

Spoiler

Iwinski even said that when making Witcher 1, publishers wanted CDPR to make players be able to have different classes , since according to them (publishers) that's what most gamers want. The publishers were right.

PS: In the official blog it is stated that games like Skyrim, Baldurs Gate and Fallout 2 will inspire Cyberpunk 2077. All of them having character creation.

Yep, a lot of stuff points to it emphasizing character freedom more. Hopefully not at the expense of a good story, of course, but I'll definitely be happy if I can create and customize my own character.

 

[Suhiira]

That's really the "trick" to it tho, how do you combine play freedom with a good story?
While a human GM can adapt on the fly that's not an option in a video game. So developers are stuck with the nearly impossible task of creating content many players will never see (unless they do multiple play throughs of the game with different characters ... not something most players do) at a significant cost in time and expense.

Why I keep thinking that idea of linking significant (if not "main") story events to the Lifepath system. At at least gives the devs a more limited scope of stuff they have to create and the events themselves give context and a reason for whatever it is to be happening to the character.

BUT !
The topic is crime.

Chances are virtually everything a character does in CP2077 will be at the very least "grey" when it comes to legality. This is not a setting where one expects to find "paladins". The real question is how far can a character go before they "cross the line"?

I think most of us can agree the "murder everyone" type of gameplay needs to be delt with ... harshly ... by NPCs/game. But what about your fairly standardized "kill the guards to gain access to an area" stuff? Leaving a trail of corpses should have notable ramifications in terms of the law, character reputation, and how NPCs react to your character. Sure they won't know exactly how many bodies you've created but even in CP2077 one would expect killing 10 guards and robbing a warehouse to make the news (not front page of course .. that's reserved for the latest "charity" gala hosted by some Corp exec) and word to get around your character was involved. Would you treat a known killer with a high body count the same as you'd treat everyone else RL?

 

[Snowflakez]

That's really the "trick" to it tho, how do you combine play freedom with a good story?
While a human GM can adapt on the fly that's not an option in a video game. So developers are stuck with the nearly impossible task of creating content many players will never see (unless they do multiple play throughs of the game with different characters ... not something most players do) at a significant cost in time and expense.

Why I keep thinking that idea of linking significant (if not "main") story events to the Lifepath system. At at least gives the devs a more limited scope of stuff they have to create and the events themselves give context and a reason for whatever it is to be happening to the character.

BUT !
The topic is crime.

Chances are virtually everything a character does in CP2077 will be at the very least "grey" when it comes to legality. This is not a setting where one expects to find "paladins". The real question is how far can a character go before they "cross the line"?

I think most of us can agree the "murder everyone" type of gameplay needs to be delt with ... harshly ... by NPCs/game. But what about your fairly standardized "kill the guards to gain access to an area" stuff? Leaving a trail of corpses should have notable ramifications in terms of the law, character reputation, and how NPCs react to your character. Sure they won't know exactly how many bodies you've created but even in CP2077 one would expect killing 10 guards and robbing a warehouse to make the news (not front page of course .. that's reserved for the latest "charity" gala hosted by some Corp exec) and word to get around your character was involved. Would you treat a known killer with a high body count the same as you'd treat everyone else RL?

As to your point on crime (I agree about the freedom/lifepath thing), that would be awesome.

Interestingly, the opposite could also have consequences. Perhaps not strictly or overly negative ones, maybe "effects" would be a better word.

So, if you're the type of character who refuses to kill anyone -- except when you're given no other choice in rare circumstances -- maybe the game could react in some way. Maybe people will be more aggressive after realizing you'll go out of your way to avoid killing, or maybe they'll be less aggressive. Maybe honorable cops (of which there are undoubtedly few, I understand) will give you a break if they catch you breaking the law, or maybe they'll be more willing to assist you if you ever need to ask them a few questions down the line.

A game world that reacts to the player's decisions is one of my number one hopes for the game... Unfortunately, it's also not something I'm expecting. Not to a large degree, anyway.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

I'm just he

A game world that reacts to the player's decisions is one of my number one hopes for the game... Unfortunately, it's also not something I'm expecting. Not to a large degree, anyway.

I'm just here waiting for a open world that isn't a dead desert and I mean not just a beautiful crafted world like most in the industry, but a world that has lots of activities to do in it for players to explore. NPCs fighting each other in Fallout 2 was absolutely great in my opinion. Wars, Chaos and conflict is key to have fun.

 

[walkingdarkly]

I'm just here waiting for a open world that isn't a dead desert

Well..hate to spoil it for ya but there will more than likely be a big deserty wasteland somewhere around the outskirts or beyond of Night City, as a lot of whats left of California in this world is a wasteland.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Well..hate to spoil it for ya but there will more than likely be a big deserty wasteland somewhere around the outskirts or beyond of Night City, as a lot of whats left of California in this world is a wasteland.

I hope there are deserts in CP2077 so I can have New Vegas flashbacks. It's necessary to not have an empty Night City disguised by beautiful graphics. Hell, most Skyrim players didn't even finished the main story, what most of them did according to Todd Howard was explore the world, that's how important it is for players to immerse themselves into the world exploration.

 

[Meccanical]

Well..hate to spoil it for ya but there will more than likely be a big deserty wasteland somewhere around the outskirts or beyond of Night City, as a lot of whats left of California in this world is a wasteland.

I think this is extremely important for Nomads. They primarily exists on the fringe of society after all.

 

[Metropolice]

Maybe honorable cops (of which there are undoubtedly few, I understand) will give you a break if they catch you breaking the law, or maybe they'll be more willing to assist you if you ever need to ask them a few questions down the line.

​

Attention user 3814128,

please report to nearest NCPD precinct for immediate questioning. Failure to comply will result in immediate wanted status and heavy prosecution.


- NCPD Overwatch


-----


In all seriousness, I can't wait to see those interactions both from a police faction point of view (if you could not tell by my branding and name, this is one of my favorite 'careers' so far) and then of course from an outsider perspective.

The more diversity you have per career (and not just that, by maybe regardless of it in some interactions) and the better dynamic interactions and reputations are, the more likely players will like and advertise the game. In turn, that's a lot of work, however. On one hand I can't wait to play it, on the other hand I must come to the realization that wanting a developed, dynamic and extensive game requires time. At the end of the day, I'd rather have them delay until it fits into the vision than throw it out early. I'm sure they know what they are doing and that - excessive hype or not - CP2077 will be a good game that doesn't have to hide among others.

And ideally, it will raise the bar.

 

[RLKing1969]

I concur. Cyberpunk wouldn't be the same without random crime. Just like such things happen I the real world, so should it be with CP2077.

 

[walkingdarkly]

Cyberpunk wouldn't be the same without random crime

I'm more interested in random boostergang riots...with a random chance of a certain boostergang vehicle spawning.

 

[sv3672]

This discussion reminds me of Skyrim's hamfisted attempts to give consequences to the player's actions.

Steal a sweetroll from an old lady in the middle of the night, while she's sleeping and completely incapable of finding out who did it?

Skyrim: Send thugs to "teach the player a lesson." It'll be great.

It seems the more complex the crime system in a game tries to be, the more chances there are for it to end up looking stupid, which would require making it even more complicated to deal with that particular situation in a realistic and fair way. No wonder laws became so complex in real life. In a game, sometimes the simple solution works well, like in The Witcher 3, you can either take everything that is not nailed down and the peasants do not care, or are physically unable to commit the crime (it would be out of character for Geralt), or guards attack on sight if they see you taking items from containers.

 

[Snowflakez]

It seems the more complex the crime system in a game tries to be, the more chances there are for it to end up looking stupid, which would require making it even more complicated to deal with that particular situation in a realistic and fair way. No wonder laws became so complex in real life. In a game, sometimes the simple solution works well, like in The Witcher 3, you can either take everything that is not nailed down and the peasants do not care, or are physically unable to commit the crime (it would be out of character for Geralt), or guards attack on sight if they see you taking items from containers.

This is very true. But, in Bethesda's specific case, I think there has to be some simpler ways of handling it.

Did any NPCs detect you when the crime was committed? Did they detect you ~5-10 seconds afterwards? No thugs. Did they detect you, but you ran away (exited the cell or exited the NPC's line of sight)? Thugs, and maybe they're hostile to you next time you come around.

I'm not going to say that would be easy to code... for all I know, Bethesda's crime system is pure spaghetti code... but it's certainly not a complete overhaul of the system.

 

[sv3672]

Did any NPCs detect you when the crime was committed? Did they detect you ~5-10 seconds afterwards? No thugs. Did they detect you, but you ran away (exited the cell or exited the NPC's line of sight)? Thugs, and maybe they're hostile to you next time you come around.

If you are detected when the crime is committed, then it is a regular crime anyway, with a bounty and arrest attempt by guards, so there are immediate consequences. I think the idea behind the thugs might be that there is no guaranteed "perfect" crime, even when it seems like there was no evidence or witness left, there is still a risk that you somehow get caught later. Which also happens to criminals in real life, having to worry about unexpected consequences is a part of playing as such characters. Of course, more and more conditional checks could have been added to exclude unrealistic scenarios, but games do have to release eventually.

 

[Snowflakez]

If you are detected when the crime is committed, then it is a regular crime anyway, with a bounty and arrest attempt by guards, so there are immediate consequences. I think the idea behind the thugs might be that there is no guaranteed "perfect" crime, even when it seems like there was no evidence or witness left, there is still a risk that you somehow get caught later. Which also happens to criminals in real life, having to worry about unexpected consequences is a part of playing as such characters. Of course, more and more conditional checks could have been added to exclude unrealistic scenarios, but games do have to release eventually.

You're right, actually. I hadn't thought about that. It could have been done to simulate evidence left behind, but they just didn't have time to flesh it out more and left it as-is, leading players to feel the weirdness.

One way around it would have been to reduce the chances of a thug attack depending on how high the player's associated crime level was (pickpocketing or sneak in the case of robbing a house). Maybe there's a mod for that.

 

[sidyka]

also in Cyberpunk, it's common to follow someone looking for someone, I crime noir. what will the main Characters RELATION to the crime be like?

 

[Snowflakez]

also in Cyberpunk, it's common to follow someone looking for someone, I crime noir. what will the main Characters RELATION to the crime be like?

Could you elaborate?

 

[sidyka]

Could you elaborate?

so for example in altered carbon( A new cyberpunk Netflix series) our character finds the law as a hassle and something he is ultimately above the law. In blade runner and its squeal, you follow an officer especially in the squeal it explores how following orders is and ultimately about law and the blade runners they employ as something used to subjugate and exterminate an unwanted underclass. The main characters relation to law or a mystery is a really big aspect of cyberpunk because of its innate roots in the crime noir. my question is with the little we've seen we have seen what looks like law enforcement, how do you guys think they willl be explored in THIS story

 

[Snowflakez]

so for example in altered carbon( A new cyberpunk Netflix series) our character finds the law as a hassle and something he is ultimately above the law. In blade runner and its squeal, you follow an officer especially in the squeal it explores how following orders is and ultimately about law and the blade runners they employ as something used to subjugate and exterminate an unwanted underclass. The main characters relation to law or a mystery is a really big aspect of cyberpunk because of its innate roots in the crime noir. my question is with the little we've seen we have seen what looks like law enforcement, how do you guys think they willl be explored in THIS story

Ah, gotcha.

I wouldn't be surprised to see law enforcement treated in a similar way as it was in Blade Runner - corruption/shadiness will likely be a pretty common theme in 2077, as its more of a street level story.

However, the closest thing I can think of to the blade runners themselves in the Cyberpunk 2020/2077 universe would be the Psycho Squad, a group of police (? correct me if I'm wrong, Sardukhar Suhiira) that hunt down individuals who have lost a great deal of their humanity due to over-augmentation and essentially become crazy.

The Blade Runners are a bit more of a sinister bunch since they take out replicants that are not necessarily dangerous, but it's the closest comparison I can think of.

 

[walkingdarkly]

corruption/shadiness will likely be a pretty common theme in 2077, as its more of a street level story.

On one hand, this is putting it lightly. This is because in the world of Cyberpunk 2020, what's left of the USA is under a new rule of law that is basically permanent martial law and most cops even normal beat cops are almost nearly the judges from Judge Dredd, if you know who that is. Then you do get a few good cops out there that try to do the right thing despite everything.

However, the closest thing I can think of to the blade runners themselves in the Cyberpunk 2020/2077 universe would be the Psycho Squad, a group of police (? correct me if I'm wrong, Sardukhar Suhiira) that hunt down individuals who have lost a great deal of their humanity due to over-augmentation and essentially become crazy.

The Blade Runners are a bit more of a sinister bunch since they take out replicants that are not necessarily dangerous, but it's the closest comparison I can think of.

To a degree you are right, as C-Swat/Max Tac are part of the tactical division of the police force. Though they don't hunt down someone like a Blade Runner would but are only called in when a Cyberpsycho appears or when SWAT gets destroyed. This is due to most if not all members of Max Tac being heavily borged out and on the edge of becoming cyberpsychotic themselves and this is because as shown in the 2077 teaser trailer, Max Tac has a tendency to recruit cyberpsychos they are sent in to deal with. So I would say, Max Tax is more dangerous while yes, Blade Runners are a tad bit more sinister.