Stop adding cards with RNG based effects

[Guest 4226291]

Stop adding cards with RNG based effects

It seems like many of the new cards previewed for us spawn a card but it’s between three random cards from that category. I think cards with an effect that is constant creates more strategy and tactics than simply being lucky with which 3 cards are selected for the spawn effect. I’ve never played Hearthstone but from what I hear many players left it because of ridiculous RNG mechanics and I don’t believe adding RNG to Gwent is in any way a good choice. It increases the amount of luck that plays into winning which is something that should be avoided.

Luck will always exist in CCGs (drawing from deck, mulligans, etc.), but great effort must be made to minimize it’s impact on how likely someone is to win from it. I believe heading in this direction is a big mistake.

 

[Legendarum]

I just posted this somewhere else on these forums, but I think I remember reading an article somewhere that said RNG in card games is there to make players feel better about their game. I.e. if RNG goes well they think 'woop I'm a great player', whilst if it goes badly they can just blame the 'bad RNG', rather than themselves.

I don't know if that information is useful, but there we go.

I personally think a little RNG is healthy, I can't think of a card game without any (not counting the draws/mulligans like you stated) - but it's a fine line, too much would be pretty bad.

 

[Iuliandrei]

The game already has RNG, the biggest RNG of all, which is card draw. I hear a lot of people bringing up Hearthstone as example, but although that game has many units with RNG effects, those account for very little in terms of winrate, the real culprit is card draw. In Hearthstone this is especially true since games are very short, in a typical game that ends by round 6-7 you only see 1/3 of your deck and far too many times you reach a point where: If draw = X then you win, else you lose.

The same can be said for Gwent, i have a lot of decks that are built around a specific gold or silver, or more often than not i can tell if i win or lose just by my opening hand, sure your deck has a silver mage but if you don't draw it you still lose to double gold weather, i lost more games like this than i can count, when drawing a specific card decides if i lose or win a game.

 

[sfruzz]

The game already has RNG, the biggest RNG of all, which is card draw.

The same can be said for Gwent, i have a lot of decks that are built around a specific gold or silver, or more often than not i can tell if i win or lose just by my opening hand, sure your deck has a silver mage but if you don't draw it you still lose to double gold weather, i lost more games like this than i can count, when drawing a specific card decides if i lose or win a game.

In Gwent your opening hand consists of 10 out of 25 cards, you can mulligan away 3 of them, which means that if you are careful with blacklisting you have pretty close control over your draw. Sure there will that game in which you draw zero nekkers, or the one in which you have all of your gold cards, but through various thinning mechanics you are likely to draw consistently almost every single card of your deck. Compared to other card games Gwent has low variance in that regard.

Luck will always exist in CCGs (drawing from deck, mulligans, etc.), but great effort must be made to minimize it’s impact on how likely someone is to win from it. I believe heading in this direction is a big mistake.

I'm also concerned with the addition of RNG effects on new cards. Isengrim:Outlaw, Avallac'h the Sage, Mahakam Pyrotechnician are cards that are unhealty for the game.

 

[Iuliandrei]

In Gwent your opening hand consists of 10 out of 25 cards...

Man i know how Gwent works, i played thousands of games already, probably more than you did. My statement still stands, there is A LOT of RNG in Gwent based on the cards you draw, entire matches depend on ONE card.

 

[fantesmeee]

I believe it's too late. CDP has already chosen another path.

Man i know how Gwent works, i played thousands of games already, probably more than you did. My statement still stands, there is A LOT of RNG in Gwent based on the cards you draw, entire matches depend on ONE card.

I totally agree. ONE stupid CARD, and you LOSE the whole match.

More than that, ONe stupid CARD can destroy almost all your cards/points. Everything you have built is destroyed in ONE move, ONE card. Crazy.

If high point cards can be blown away on so many occasions, why not to remove them from the entire game? It's better to spawn many small units. But if there is only this option left, then there are cards to deal with it, I believe. If they would have removed them, then it would have become even worse. It's a gamble NOT an e-sport game. That's a difference.

 

[DMaster2]

Man i know how Gwent works, i played thousands of games already, probably more than you did. My statement still stands, there is A LOT of RNG in Gwent based on the cards you draw, entire matches depend on ONE card.

Your statement is flawed. Gwent is a card game, and as any card game out there you are influenced by the deck's shuffling. That is irrilevant to the point because is unavoidable, unless you start with a 25 cards' hand. But adding more RNG is dumb as hell imho. Between Sage, Djikstra and co. we have more rng already than what i'd like to see...

 

[Guest 4226291]

Your statement is flawed. Gwent is a card game, and as any card game out there you are influenced by the deck's shuffling. That is irrilevant to the point because is unavoidable, unless you start with a 25 cards' hand. But adding more RNG is dumb as hell imho. Between Sage, Djikstra and co. we have more rng already than what i'd like to see...

Adding cards like Avalach: Sage is ridiculous because of how useless he is. You’re better off running a more useful Gold anyway that has better synergy or high point value. I don’t completely agree that he’s good or bad for the game, especially since he takes a valuable Gold slot and basically has no synergy and what he spawns isn’t *entirely* RNG as you can expect what he’ll spawn to some degree depending on faction match up.

But I do disagree about Djikstra being only RNG, as a skilled player can thin and/or manipulate his deck in a way to have it played skillfully, while these new cards (ex. Winch) spawn a random machine but it randomly selects three out of the 10 or more machines in Northern Realms which is so stupid. You could be lucky and get and extra Ballista or Battering Ram or just a trebuchet. I don’t think cards like that should exist. Have it played with no RNG as in “spawn a copy of a random machine card in your deck” (similar to dwarves agitator) or something along those lines. And as I said earlier Dwarven Agitator is another card that could be argued both ways since if he’s played with only one other dwarf in your deck he becomes an engine card, but the more dwarves you have the less consistent he is. At least he is based around your deck and is only partially RNG, while something like Winch isn’t at all.

 

[4RM3D]

Adding cards like Avalach: Sage is ridiculous because of how useless he is.

Avalac'h: The Sage was never meant to be a serious and competitive card. I actually like it that the devs threw in some fun cards, just to create a casual deck where no one match is the same.

As for the new RNG cards, the devs have explained that not all cards are meant to be competitive but can be pretty good in the new game mode that will be introduced later.

 

[Shakti420]

Can we talk about Nilgard deck that make an effect at the last round BUT NONE OF THE GOD DAMN CARDS ON THE BOARD DESCRIBE THE EFFECT NEITHER THAN THE HISTORIC ? Just pissed when a man launch a card on th eboard, it gives +5 to the 2 others cards, but none of them describe what just happened. Yeah love RNG plus '"i don't know what the fuck just happened" effect. Card games are really rewarding of pleasure that's incredible.

 

[Raunbjorn]

In Gwent your opening hand consists of 10 out of 25 cards, you can mulligan away 3 of them, which means that if you are careful with blacklisting you have pretty close control over your draw. Sure there will that game in which you draw zero nekkers, or the one in which you have all of your gold cards, but through various thinning mechanics you are likely to draw consistently almost every single card of your deck. Compared to other card games Gwent has low variance in that regard.



I'm also concerned with the addition of RNG effects on new cards. Isengrim:Outlaw, Avallac'h the Sage, Mahakam Pyrotechnician are cards that are unhealty for the game.

This. Thanks for being so well put about this. I'm disliking all the RNG cards coming into the game. I mean why even do it? CPDR say they listen to the community but the community does not want more RNG, at least that's what most ppl in here say. Heck even Lifecoach (couldn't care less about that guy) moved away from HS cause of all the RNG. And now they implement more of it. It just doesn't make any sense to me. In the end I could just move on. After all it's just a silly card game and there are lots good alternatives out there but I like the strategy part about this game and the fact that some cards are bound to a specific row (which they're about to drop again?!). That's what makes the game kinda unique. CPDR please don't fuck this up!

 

[nemirni]

Can we talk about Nilgard deck that make an effect at the last round BUT NONE OF THE GOD DAMN CARDS ON THE BOARD DESCRIBE THE EFFECT NEITHER THAN THE HISTORIC ? Just pissed when a man launch a card on th eboard, it gives +5 to the 2 others cards, but none of them describe what just happened. Yeah love RNG plus '"i don't know what the fuck just happened" effect. Card games are really rewarding of pleasure that's incredible.

Hehe, I am afraid it's has nothing to do with RNG nor this topic. Seems you got Irised.
But since you posted:
your opponennt played Iris on your side of the board right? It got killed, (deatwish: boost 5 units by 5) and boosted his other units by 5 points. If you checked your graveyard you could have seen the ability of the card..

 

[Shakti420]

Yes i could have seen the ability once the game is finished ofc; No in fact. Otherwise i wouldnt be here yelling., since you can't read an ability while the opponent choose what to do you are fucked up.
Ho and let's talk about an other faction card, Tschart, a cool card isnt it ? If your opponent has the luck to got three of them if you haven't got neither Surin, Radovid (or the other one idk), or enough Hazard cards, you are dedicated to lose 3 points each turns, that' is enjoyable.

 

[partci]

... Tschart... Surin...

Err... English, please?

I say a small portion of RNG is good, but it has to be well thought for what it should be.

Like, why a DOOMED Herbalist with 2 STR pulls absolutely random Organic card, but Elven Merceneries (1 STR) and Novices (2 STR) have a choice between two (respectably Spell and Alchemy) cards? Then Aretuza Adepts are 3 STR with a familiar to the Herbalists effect, but they can be buffed via the BS Scouts, than pull a BS Commando while thinning your deck AND apply a Weather Effect.

With Merceneries and Novices you have a RNG CHOICE between 2 cards - it is still RNG but you can put your finger on it's pulse, to work with it. Herbalists are just bad in this scenario, as the variety between the Organic cards is nothing like the variety between the Weather Cards that the Aretuzas are pulling. Like, I would love to use Lacerate and Adrenalin Rush, but 9 out of 10 times the Herbalist will pull the card that I don't actually need in the moment.

I may carried away a bit, but this is something that really pisses me off when I think of it.

 

[Guest 4226291]

Err... English, please?

I say a small portion of RNG is good, but it has to be well thought for what it should be.

Like, why a DOOMED Herbalist with 2 STR pulls absolutely random Organic card, but Elven Merceneries (1 STR) and Novices (2 STR) have a choice between two (respectably Spell and Alchemy) cards? Then Aretuza Adepts are 3 STR with a familiar to the Herbalists effect, but they can be buffed via the BS Scouts, than pull a BS Commando while thinning your deck AND apply a Weather Effect.

With Merceneries and Novices you have a RNG CHOICE between 2 cards - it is still RNG but you can put your finger on it's pulse, to work with it. Herbalists are just bad in this scenario, as the variety between the Organic cards is nothing like the variety between the Weather Cards that the Aretuzas are pulling. Like, I would love to use Lacerate and Adrenalin Rush, but 9 out of 10 times the Herbalist will pull the card that I don't actually need in the moment.

I may carried away a bit, but this is something that really pisses me off when I think of it.

This. This. This. I never use herbalist because I think she’s borderline useless with exception to adrenaline rush. But I use eleven mercenary. So how come herbalist is doomed and Iris is not? Why are monsters allowed to use Iris twice and get her off instantly with Wild Hunt Rider on a frost row? That’s 50 points which is obscene.

 

[Guest 4226291]

Avalac'h: The Sage was never meant to be a serious and competitive card. I actually like it that the devs threw in some fun cards, just to create a casual deck where no one match is the same.

As for the new RNG cards, the devs have explained that not all cards are meant to be competitive but can be pretty good in the new game mode that will be introduced later.

Yeah I never meant that I don’t want him in the game. My point was, other RNG cards (ex. Eleven Mercenary, Dwarven Agitator, Avalach: The Sage, Djikstra, Gaunter, Mahakam Pyrotechnician, Mahakam Ale, Torrential Rain, Ale of the Ancesters, etc.) at least aren’t *entirely* RNG, because they’re based around which row you place cards on and interrow placement, and even deck construction of both you and your opponent.

Cards like winch or other RNG cards should follow this pattern, instead of not being based on your deck construction and being completely random, in fact it could have been the Dwarven Agitator of Northern Realms by spawning a copy of a machine. As it stands, regardless of anything you do or build your deck with, it just picks 3 machines out of the 10 or more NR ones and you spawn one with no control over the effect, which I think is ridiculous.

 

[TV_JayArr]

[...]
As for the new RNG cards, the devs have explained that not all cards are meant to be competitive but can be pretty good in the new game mode that will be introduced later.

If they are designed for a specific game mode, they shall be locked to this game mode. Those cards can have impact on the ranked ladder if someone decides to annoy people on it. And it is stupid to encourage people to do so.

 

[4RM3D]

Those cards can have impact on the ranked ladder if someone decides to annoy people on it.

What's the difference between cards that are annoying and cards that are competitive? You want to annoy players by losing? Because that is what's going to happen most of the time if you aren't playing with competitive cards that synergize with your deck. Spawn cards are unpredictable and can't always give you the choice you need for the situation you find yourself in. I really have no idea how often they will be played. Let's just wait and see before drawing a conclusion.

 

[TV_JayArr]

4RM3D I meant that a random deck can hit well sometimes and make a player lose that played better. Thats not what should be the case in a CCG in my opinion. Until now Gwent managed to let skill decide more than luck in the vast majority of games.
Thats what I meant by "annoy players". The RNG player annoys his opponent that loses without having a chance, if the RNG player gets lucky.

 

[4RM3D]

The RNG player annoys his opponent that loses without having a chance, if the RNG player gets lucky.

It depends on what kind of RNG we're talking about. On average, the RNG player should lose more than win, but (s)he can always get lucky when the stars are aligned right. Losing against this can be annoying, but it shouldn't happen a lot. More often than not, it's probably your own bad luck (e.g. mulligan that was less fortunate), that makes you lose rather than a Hail Mary play from the opponent. At least, that's the way it is for me.