Cinematics or no cinematics?

[greeks]

One of the things that really broke my heart in Cyberpunk was the decision to not implement any cinematics to the game. By "cinematics" I mean in-game moments when you can see your character interacting with NPCs and/or enviroment in third person with movie-like camera action and montage. Technical and artistic reasons aside, I believe that a tripple-A game should have that movie-like feel to it. Not in a sense of linearity, but in a sense of scope and production value.


So here's how it is in my case. I love cutscenes. I love cinematics. I love when the game is taking its time for proper exposition. Nothing screams "high budget" and "production value" louder than a high quality cinematics. In-game cutscenes take money, time and effort for next to no gameplay value. But they show that the team responsible for the game was able to-- and could-- afford it.


Games where there is either a vew cinematics or no cinematics at all usually use either a mute character, or follow a "you are the character" philosophy. And that is OK, but it has it's own hazards.

First of all, the "cinematic" moments in such games have to be really well orchestrated and timed. The designer have to take into consideration that the player might be looking for loot or looking at something completely unrelated, while a really cool thing that the devs worked hard for a very long time is happening right behind them. The easy way out is to take a wheel and force the camera to point at the thing in question. But that takes away player's freedom which breakes the immersion of "you are the character". Cinematics also take control, but they offer a huge value in return: perfect framing and montage.


Movies made us used to, well, movie-like visuals. The sheer fact of cinematic happening makes the scene so much more impactful. Sometimes I play a game and something happens and I'm like "whas... that supposed to be an important moment in the game?".


So what are your thoughts about the subject? Cinematics or no cinematics? What is your pick?

 

[LeKill3rFou]

For a first person game like Cyberpunk, it's perfect for me (in first person with a little sensation of liberty). When in a first person game you switch to 3rd person in the dialogues, that bothers me a bit. Knowing that there, in Cyberpunk, the camera is very often "refocused" where you have to look or when you have to speak. If you look elsewhere during an important moment, it is because you are doing it on purpose...
For a 3rd person game, "classic" cinematics is also perfect

 

[Guest 3847602]

I love cinematics but I don't find them necessary in order to feel the impact of the scene. Good writing, performance of voice actors and body and facial animations can achieve that just fine as far as I'm concerned.

 

[cartlidge]

I think most of the rooms are designed with cinematic effect in mind you just are not seeing it because you're used to fallout 4 type stuff.

I enjoyed finding out about scene setting and staging at around the 51 min mark in this video you might find interesting.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

To take a single example why first person cinematics in Cyberpunk are awesome (but there are plenty of them), when during "Pyramid Song", in the bathroom, when you talk to Judy and stroke her cheek, it's so damn good... Honestly with a "classic" cinematic (in the 3rd person), that would be really not the same, much much worse (for me at least).
I would really like other first person games to do the same thing, because for me it's really the best

 

[Guest 3847602]

To take a single example why first person cinematics in Cyberpunk are awesome (but there are plenty of them), when during "Pyramid Song", in the bathroom, when you talk to Judy and stroke her cheek, it's so damn good... Honestly with a "classic" cinematic (in the 3rd person), that would be really not the same, much much worse (for me at least).

Spoiler

Or staring at Jackie's face as life slips away from him, or smashing Thompson's face for recording Alt or sitting, drinking and bonding with Panam and Aldecaldos in "With a Little Help from My Friends", or being on stage with reformed Samurai, etc...

 

[greeks]

This trailer showed us what the game could gain thanks to good cinematics:

There is plenty of FPP games that have both environmental storytelling and high production value cinematic cutscenes. Wolvenstein the New Order is a good example for an FPS game. The ever-present Deus Ex is another.


Unfortunately I don't understand what "Fallout 4 stuff" is, but I am fully aware of environmental storytelling. Incidentally, it's also present in Fallout 4 which confuses me even further. In fact, environmental storytelling is present in every game. Thinking that it's exclusive to Cyberpunk, or to CDPR games, or it's a substitute for cinematics is straight out silly.


Cinematics cost time and effort but they are not only a burden. Not only do they help with exposition, but also with showing a passage of time. They help with transitioning from one location to another without making the character to pass out all the time.
Think about how a cinematic montage was used in order to show the passage of time at the beginning of the game, and save a lot of time and effort it would take to make a dozen missions involving you and Jackie "bonding". Without that cinematic, we would end straight up in the lady-in-the-bathtub mission and "6 months later" on-screen message.


Unfortunately I can't verify how the romanse benefits from no cinematics in the game as I haven't played past the hiroshi eye mission.
But I played a lot of games that handle almost all things in first person. And like I said, it's all OK for that approach to exist. But it doesn't feel as grand in scope as the one that utilises proper cutscenes.


But also speaking of "in person approach". When you are up close and personal, when you are looking direclty at something in first person, all defects, imperfections, and technical glitches are all the more visible. There is a reason for why Cyberpunk looks so much better when you drive a vehicle in third person. The camera is further away, there is more objectson the screen, you can see more stuff at the same time. The game feels so much more alive.


I get the idea that the game is supposed to be claustrophobic and whatnot, but things like that have to be counterbalanced by moments where you can breathe freely. Think of Bladerunner. There are some tense moments, but they are always separated by bird's-eye view of the city.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Unfortunately I don't understand what "Fallout 4 stuff" is

For me, if I understand right, it's when you go looting some random junks during a conversation in "free" cinematic

But of all the first person games I've played (Deus Ex MD to take your example) I like less, even a lot less... And even if as you say, it's less perfect "visually"*, sensations and impressions are unparalleled with a "classic" cinematic.
Honestly, since I have try that kind of cinematic (pretty new and unic for me at least), I want to see that in all games in first person view... I bless the one who decided that at CDPR... It's so awesome...

To take a more concerted example :

Spoiler

It's as if I had eaten industrial mash potatoes all my life (and finding it good), and that one day I am eating mash potatoes made by my grandmother... In any case, I could want to return to the industrial one... If there is only that, okay... But if I have to choose, no doubt

(I'm not talking about 3rd person games, where it's totally different and logical to have "classic" cinematics)

And for the 6 months, let's say it's an appetizer, an opening. You are no longer a Street Kid/Nomad/Corp, but a Weekly Merc with your new best friend Jackie

*edit :

Spoiler

Example, when you wait with Kerry for the truck to arrive during a quest and your hand crosses his shoulder a little (which was corrected in 1.22 it seems to me), I don't really care, because it's a lot better in first person, even with this "default" (you have more the impression of being "actor" than a simple "spectator")

 

[Notserious80]

Hmm good question. I find the FPP kinda weird. Sometimes it just feels like the "camera" is in the wrong position or too zoomed in/out. Think it has too do with the attempt too make it realistic. Thats probably why when the 3:d person mod came the body was behaving so weird. They hade too crush the body too get the arm positions and so on when aiming too line up. Human eyes has a larger FOV then the game can handle so kinda hard too fix. I like it when it works as it should nowdays, probably got used too it. Kinda wish we could get too see stuff from the outside at times tho.

 

[northwold]

I think they handled not using them surprisingly well and for me, at least, it made a lot of sense.

Cyberpunk plays to me as a game about the concept of the self: about the lived experience of the individual. Its constant refrain is "what is the soul" and many facets of its design are about you -- as V -- finding yours (his or hers).

The most in-your-face example of this is meditation. You don't see V sitting in a forest staring at the trees. You ARE V sitting in a forest staring at the trees. It is not addressed to V as a separate character; it is talking directly to you.

Thematically, that is an internal journey and I think I'd find it a bit jarring to switch to third person. Third person (and fixed view cinematics) are a means of putting the observer at one step removed from the narrative. That isn't really consistent with what the game sets out to achieve.

PS And when it *does* switch to third person cinematic in the endings, because you have spent the whole game seeing through V's eyes, holy hell does it land hard: that is YOUR journey that is being brought to an end, that is the conclusion to YOUR story.

 

[458speciale]

cinematics? yes, please.

 

[Netrunner2go]

after replaying LoU and LoU2 lately - yes please. They can work really really good if made right. Storytelling + Cinematics in LoU2 are still beyond compare for me. Havent played anything more touching yet. I dont believe FFP is (or can be) better than that in any way... but thats just me : /

 

[AlienSpaceBats]

Usually I enjoy seeing cinematics in games, particularly if it's a third-person action game and I get to see my (custom) character, but in CP2077's case, I didn't miss them. I think having third person scenes would have clashed with the decision to show the player everything in first-person, but it is nice when we finally see our V and we're disconnected from them (the endings, that brief second in the Basilisk)

 

[cartlidge]

after replaying LoU and LoU2 lately - yes please. They can work really really good if made right. Storytelling + Cinematics in LoU2 are still beyond compare for me. Havent played anything more touching yet. I dont believe FFP is (or can be) better than that in any way... but thats just me : /

I think that's it tbh,.. third person cinematic sequences break my immersion and whilst can look pretty, never gives me the emotionally charged feeling that the first person cinematic style in CP2077 gives. I prefer to feel involved with a story, the emotions the game gives me are my own, not some 'v' I am puppet mastering I might empathize with. The example he gives in the vid I posted, the claustrophobic feeling as the cop leans in to the car, feeling stifled and in danger as he exerts his authority through invasion of my personal space. I just wouldn't get that whilst watching it happen to someone else however great the scene

 

[KeldornOfLatria]

There are cinematics: The endings. I didn't think I'd miss cinematics, but seeing my first ending only showed me, how important they would've been to connect me more to the story... On the other hand, it made my ending more impactful.

 

[-Nailes-]

Okay, here is my opinion,
Unless its an intro that sets the story or maybe the ending, I dont want any cinematics. Cinematics take away control, the feeling of playing a game. I especially dislike when games have a lot of cutscenes or cinematics. If I want to see cinematics, I'll watch a movie. In a game I want to be in control or feel that I'm in control.
First person perspective is perfect as far as I'm concerned, see everything through the eyes of the character. 3rd person and cutscenes take away immersion without actually adding anything of value. Turning me into a bystander when I should be a participant doesnt make me care more, rather the contrary.

 

[greeks]

There is a lot of immersive games out there that don't necessarily use first person, and yet they tell epic and out of this world stories:

Tripple-A games are a special breed. They are not perfect, especially nowadays. But they are made to give us an absolute, overwhelming experience. You watch a cutscene like the one above and you just know that this will be something you will remember for a long time. Blizzard used to give us absolutely mind-blowing cutscenes to Warcraft. And I mean the strategy game, not the MMO. People remember those Warcraft 3 cutscenes to this day. And that's what I'm talking about. Cutscenes, when made well, leave an impact. You will want to play the game just for those amazing moments that you can just enjoy instead of trying to recreate through gameplay.

 

[cartlidge]

I watched your vid and throught it looked like a cool game, I was interested in finding out what happened to him. I will not have the same gambit of emotions nor the deep immersion into a role that first person can provide. I can feel bad for someone losing a parent but that will never match the scale of emotion I will feel losing my own parent. That is the difference for me between first and third cinematic styles.

 

[Didacgomez]

When I saw those CP cinematic trailers and people that was expecting all the game to be filled with that I remember "Dragon's Lair", nice to watch not very fun to play.

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

So what are your thoughts about the subject? Cinematics or no cinematics? What is your pick?

I will most definately agree with that I had welcomed cutscenes or other forms of 3rd person cinematics with arms wide open.
The one cinematic at each ending by itself makes me feel a tingly on the inside which goes to show how much I would've have enjoyed them.

Which leaves me in a bit of a weird spot, because I somewhat got used to them not being there, but a topic such as this, or arriving at an ending that fatefull time makes me reminiscent about them and how cool they are.

Post automatically merged: Jun 23, 2021

I think they handled not using them surprisingly well.

I want to highlight specifically this. When you take into account it was a explicitly chosen style, it turned out surprisingly well compared to what could have been.