GDC 2014

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Just read this article on IGN about a presentation at GDC
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/17/gdc-plot-is-highly-overrated-in-games-says-devs

In my opinion this type of thinking is like a cancer in the gaming industry, please CDPR prove them wrong.
Because if the gaming industry is left in the hands of people with this mindset... well then we're fucked.

sorry if its off topic but the article really got me in the guts.

"Microsoft Game Studios’ Design....blah. blah, blah"

Lost brain cells reading that garbage.
 
Just read this article on IGN about a presentation at GDC
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/17/gdc-plot-is-highly-overrated-in-games-says-devs

In my opinion this type of thinking is like a cancer in the gaming industry, please CDPR prove them wrong.
Because if the gaming industry is left in the hands of people with this mindset... well then we're fucked.

sorry if its off topic but the article really got me in the guts.

You're absolutely right. This is the kind of thinking that results in bad games driving out good. Developers that don't understand the importance of narrative are just developers who can't write their way out of a wet paper bag. So they have a stake in making sure nobody tries to do better than them, and they do it by using journalists who are mere tools unworthy of a press pass to give their message credibility with producers and investors.

There was a very good comment on the article by a reader using the handle "wr3zzz", which I'm going to quote in full because it's all to the point.

Whoever conducted these studies were either poor researchers who didn't understand cause and effect or were politically motivated to justify their development pipelines. The reason gamers don't remember plot is because games mostly have lousy plots or have done terrible jobs at integrating plots into the games. My experience is dictated by the supply. Since almost all the gaming plots are mediocre at best and forgettable mostly, no wonder that our own imagination, i.e. character took over to make up for the shortcomings of the developers. I remember vividly about very good food or bad food but didn't care about mediocre food. Since most of the food I ate are mediocre, does this mean I don't care about how my food tastes? I thought these types of logic in market research have already been phased out since the 60s.

I shouldn't say anything about the source being a Murdoch press, and how Murdoch pretends to report news just to further his own causes -- oh, wait, I did.
 
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It's easy to say that what they talk about is bad, but unfortunately they don't make it up.

Most of the players are like that, they don't care about story and characters.
That's the reason you see many online shooters. mobas, mmorpgs that are successful. People just play without much thought for anything other than the gameplay mechanics themselves, leveling up on whatnot.
So it's not surprising that many developers aim for the masses.

Now, being on a Witcher board, people here definitely care about the story and the characters, and it's good that there are developers like CDPR to show that such games can be successful and there is not a small amount of people who value that.
 
“They can’t expend the mental bandwidth to follow complex plots and stories when they’re always having to do something else.”

Speak for yourself, Tom Twat :|

Also, good point from the comments:

“Of course movies and TV shows are remembered more for their plot BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THEY ARE.”
 
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Well to me this study rather shows: There are too few good plots, so players don't care and forget them. As in movies, I think there are some genres that need good plots and some then have the focus on other things (action for example). Not every game needs to have a great plot (but then please remove those pretend plots, that noone cares about and just focus on gameplay), but the ones that have need for the most part be improved. But we are still in the transitioning phase, where acutal wirters learn to become games wirters. You can't expect every developer to be a writer as well. But as soon as we have developed these specialists and their full potential, then we can have great stories. But it is still an art to fit story with gameplay.
 
From what I can understand of what they're saying, I happen to agree with them.

I care very little about the canned story being presented in most games. Central plot is an excuse for developers to railroad the experience and make you sit through their cutscenes. I'm far more engaged by developers setting a stage for me to weave my own narratives, and by environmental storytelling and atmosphere. An experience. Build me a world- not so much "tell me a story."

I shouldn't say anything about the source being a Murdoch press, and how Murdoch pretends to report news just to further his own causes -- oh, wait, I did.
Sorry but what the hell does that have to do with anything?
 
I haven't seen the complete speech, but I agree with what it says too.

Plot is highly overrated indeed. The way something is told (narration) is different than the thing that is actually told (plot, story). Dark Souls, Dear Esther, Gone Home,... doesn't need a "plot" to also have a very good narration. Because the plot of Dark Souls, Dear Esther or Gone Home are mediocre.

All I'm looking for in a game is an immersion, good mechanics, creativity and interactivity. I leave "plots" to novels, tv shows and movies. A plot with zombie looks boring (the story of The Walking Dead isn't that good either), that's how the story is told through and because of your actions that is interesting in a video game.

Also, good point from the comments:

“Of course movies and TV shows are remembered more for their plot BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THEY ARE.”
That's not a good point at all, because it isn't true.
A better point, I believe: movies and tv shows are remembered because... they're usually shorter.
 
I don't understand what's so bad about both plot and narration being good. Just because video games can tell stories in a different way doesn't automatically mean those stories should be inferior, nor does a well thought-out story imply it should be fed through non-interactive cutscenes. Some developers handling it poortly is hardly an excuse to stop trying.
 
No, there is nothing inherently bad about a game with good plot & narration (even if I can't remember one who succeeded at both).
Of course they can try. I would say they're trying very hard in fact (with pedantic failures - that's not the quality of the plot that I tend to question, it's the "complexity" of it).

It's up to personal preferences. "Plot", in a video game, interests me as much as texture quality. I want(ed) games not to define themselves by comfortably copying movies, tv shows and novels structures -- I don't care if there is a plot or not and I hope nobody wants to call me an idiot because of it.
That's all the article is about: getting rid of the "three-acts structure", which is a very limited device for games. I wish game writers were able to get rid of most of those traditional devices to find new ways of telling things. What is told is secondary to me, I leave that to other media.
 
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You're free to want whatever you wish from games and nobody (reasonable) is going to call you an idiot for it, but that does not mean every game should follow that model. Claiming that way is the way, as the 'industry veterans' are suggesting ("Thus, these two veterans of the gaming industry recommend that developers and designers focus on the things that are most important – characters, experience – and less on the intricacies of storytelling."), is just wrong and bad for the diversity of the market.

Like you said, "It's up to personal preferences."
 
It's a bit weird seeing people dismiss plot from games in the Witcher forums. The irony.

I think it differs from game to game personally because both ways work and can work well. When I play Super Mario 3D world on my Wii U I don't much care why I'm fighting Bowser, I just know I'm having fun doing it. While an adventure game like say Broken Sword relies more on it's story to entertain you rather than it's game play mechanics, and that is a great game in its genre.
 
It's a bit weird seeing people dismiss plot from games in the Witcher forums. The irony.
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This is a total, "me,too" post, but, really. What you said. Everyone posting here is, theoretically, a fan of the Witcher games. Does CDPR value a good story-plot? Yes, yes they do. Quite a bit. They work to make it engaging, complex and believable. They spend a lot of money and time fitting their game into that plot, not the other way around.

The Witcher series isn't an excuse to have some guy with two swords hit people with those swords and have some interesting conversations with interesting people. It's a way to enjoy an interactive experience with a well-written story involving said characters and swords.

The plot of the Witcher series is one of the three main stars, after Geralt and the setting. It is absolutely essential in defining the game experience. Essential.

Without the plot in Witcher 1 and 2, we literally would not have Witcher 1, 2 or 3. At all. i don't know what it would be, but it wouldn't be these games we've come to like so much.
 
I'd want to see the full interview, if it's available.
I agree with veleda, that it's perfectly OK for games NOT to have a plot. For some games. I also agree with everyone who says that plot is really important. For some games.

If those guys really advised developers that they should ALWAYS treat plot as unimportant, then it was BS and they gave bad advice, but as the articles were all summaries, I'm also prepared to think that there's been some selective reporting here and that the real problem here is just bad journalism.
 
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This is a weird way to analyze the data these people apparently found. I mean, undoubtedly, a lot of people do not care about the plot or story in a game, but does this make those that do any less relevant? The core problem I have with the article and what the dev's were saying, is that it goes against diversity.

Me, I can still recount the plot of Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate. I can still tell you the plot of Full Throttle, in more detail than I could describe the plot of some TV and Movies I've enjoyed. And these are games I played a LONG time ago. Never mind stories from games I played more recently.

I would think that there is one thing that sets games and movies so far apart that thinking about a different approach merits discussion (albeit not the approach these people are talking about): The length. A game theoretically has to hook you for many...MANY hours, because otherwise players will feel cheated. But if you expand the story over SO many hours, obviously it is difficult to grab the players attention throughout the entirety of the story/plot. To me, this means that we need to explore different avenues of immersing players in the plot and the world. Can I tell you how right now? Not really. I think for now, we are "stuck" with creating a cohesive, compelling narrative throughout our game, making sure that players remember it fondly. We can do that.

But I do think that we should be thinking about alternatives. New ways to present story. VR technology is closing in rapidly (as in, readily available everywhere). More immersiveness is added to the VR Rigs all the time. Treadmills, ARAG Jackets...all these things make for more immersion in the gaming world and at the same time, we have AR penetrating our real lives, which, again, can increase immersiveness and make the experience of games different yet again.

Of course, all of this has nothing to do with Witcher 3. Just random thoughts on the future of storytelling in games. I am excited about it. But I certainly don't think plot does not matter. I believe that there are different types of games and they all have their merits and their drawbacks. People need to remember that there is not "THE" way to make a game. There is no "THE" way to experience a game. Just like in movies...sometimes, I feel like watching a mindless action-flick while having some popcorn with friends. Other times I want a compelling narrative. Still others I just want to laugh. All of these are valid forms of entertainment and no one would dare say that one TYPE of movie is the right way to make movies, now and forever.

But here we are, in games...and people seem to think we need to have "ONE" way to make games.

As an afterthought...since the article is all quotes, I'd like to join @dragonbird in saying that this might also be a case of really bad quoting in order to get hits. But on principle, the above is my personal perspective on games and if narrative/plot is important.
 
I can still tell you the plot of Full Throttle, in more detail than I could describe the plot of some TV and Movies I've enjoyed.

"You know what would look better on your nose?" "No, what?" "The bar!" Smash!

Still cracks me up, all these years later.
 
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