Combat system

[kofeiiniturpa]

I think it matters in terms of creating and maintaining tension, even fear. Of course, in the PnP, with no reload, that fear of character loss is very real, whereas in a videogame...it's so pointless that it should probably be a null factor.

There's something wrong with the design if it drives the player to actively look for an escape from reload instead of caring about what happens on the screen even if the reload is there.

In terms of simple, I'd say simple compared to Panzer General or, I dunno...Jagged Alliance? I'd hope for much, much, MUCH more complicated and rich than Gears of War.

Ok. So having black and white there and the preference being lighter than black, but much much much darker than white, where does that leave you in practice? Somewhere around Wizardry 8 (I actually wouldn't mind a CP game close to that format, though less grindy)? Fallout? Gothic?

I'd also like to see a combat log readout so you can see all these equations play out as you move, aim, shoot, activate Sandevistan, your Smartgun kicks in, etc. You could even plug it into the Biomonitor, a piece of cyberware that typically sits in your wrist and feeds back your status and health parameters to you. Kind of like a built-in PiPboy.

I'd love combat log. But it's a bit confusing; if combat is to be fast and furious with a need for speed, when will you have time to check it and evaluate the information to your benefit or amusement in the situation?

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Or just make it as close to a (realistic if such a thing exists) FPS as possible...

Simple. Elegant. Can't really game the system.

Gives a fighting chance to casual players.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Or just make it as close to a (realistic if such a thing exists) FPS as possible...

That's a surefire method of driving me away from the game. I've no interest in scifi shooters at all, and the gaming market is already riddled with them (for "casuals" to sink their teeth in among other genres).

But it would probably sell better than a game with hardline RPG mechanics to consider, so there's that.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

I would still play CP2077 if it was a traditional RPG (as in video game RPG) because I'm a sucker for sci-fi and blade runner-esque environments in particular

Then only difference is that I have absolutly no patience for grind and so I would probably cheat to avoid the tedious combat. If it was an FPS in the line of Doom, I would not cheat but I would play it on very easy.

E.g. I'm not a casual per se. I don't play angry birds or even call of duty but I am a "casual" In the sense that I very rarely have more then 3-5 hours to play games each week, if that. What is massively (insert politically incorrect term here, thank sard for this overly contrived sentence), is that for RPG, It usually takes a couple of weeks of grinding to go to the upper levels---if you know what you're doing.

It IS possible for a veteran counter-strike player to do well in say, Rainbow six 3, but a lvl 3 character will never beat a lvl 75 character in WoW.

 

[Harthwain]

That's a surefire method of driving me away from the game. I've no interest in scifi shooters at all, and the gaming market is already riddled with them (for "casuals" to sink their teeth in among other genres).

Well... I'll try to interpret what we know so far:

"We want to make it more action-like – there will be a system that lets you use active skills actually in the gameplay in a shooting sequence or something like that [...]".

AND

"At this point we know the game will use classes and is set to rely heavily on skills rather than levels"

In action-like combat (including shooting?) you'll be using your skills (so leveling up means you take skills and it doesn't matter what level you are, only how well will you utilize your skills). It reminds me of "Alpha Protocol" a bit. You had action there, as well as abilities that you could use at any time (provided they weren't on cooldown). It was also an interesting mix of RPG game with action.

"First of all it will be an RPG, so that means you create the story. In Syndicate and other shooters you can do no such thing".

AND

"One thing I can say for sure is that it is definitely NOT a multiplayer shooter".

Other shooters aren't RPGs, because they don't let you create the story. This part indirectly implies that "Cyberpunk 2077" will be a shooter (from a gameplay perspective of combat it translates to ranged combat). It sounds to me like this: "[...] NOT just a [multiplayer] shooter".

So, I'd say that game will be - at least partially - consisting of sci-fi shooter gameplay (be it TPP or FPP) with heavy focus on skills (and action). However, given that we'll have said skills it can mean that firepower alone won't be enough and a smart person can use his or her skills to own advantage in a difficult situation. There are classes that sound like non-combatants too, so I suppose that they'll be able to not involve themselves in firefights if they so wish.

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah, but even Jagged Alliance gives you the option to pause combat to issue orders.
Seems to me, and I may well be misunderstanding, you'll want something more akin to an FPS using FNFF rules and ABSOLUTELY avoid turn-based combat. In fact avoid any sort of pause game mechanism if at all possible.

 

[Harthwain]

Do combat in Cyberpunk look anything like DnD (Dungeon & Dangerous)? I don't know, so I have a somewhat limited picture when it comes to making an action game out of it without making it look like "just another shooter" in terms of gameplay. "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." was a shooter, but it offsetted lack of skills and abilities by making equipment modable in latest... expansion(?), so shooting felt different based on what modifications your weapon had and what weapon it was. It was interesting approach for me back then. I looked at gameplay from "Rainbow Six Siege" earlier today. It's nothing more than a shooter (at core), but it does its job very well.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

The new R6 are weak, I hope they don't base themselve on the rash of post-2003 mainstream shooters.

 

[Harthwain]

I don't see how it's weak. Did you see the gameplay? It has cooperative element (on both teams). Is simple and fun. It has destructible environment and (from what I've seen) various loadouts (or classes). It allowed the terrorists to barricade on-the-fly too. The game doesn't have to be revolutionary or go beyond being a shooter to be a good game. It reminded me of SWAT 4 a bit. A shooter, but quite tactical and really well done.

Or do you mean "weak" in sense that they aren't going back to the old formula where you had to tactically plan the whole operations and witness the outcome of it?

Anyway, going back to the point - in essence I wouldn't worry for CP77 being a shooter (or having shooter/FPS elements as part of its gameplay) just for that reason [of being a shooter*]. There are more elements in CP77 than that. How well they make it is more important (and personally I am simply curious how well PnP mechanics will transition to CP77. It's quite of an ambitious experiment after all). It'll be a major gameplay element for certain classes - in some sense for all classes - and for many people.

* By "shooter" I basically mean FPS, first person perspective and ability to shoot at things, although it doesn't have to be first person perspective. It can just as well be TPP.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

I just saw R6 Siege. It actually looks like quite decent and destructible environments are a very nice addition.

I disliked R6 vegas because it had TPS cover system and the gameplay was too fast paced. Careful aiming was actually important in Rogue Spears.It made for a game where positioning was more important then reflexes.

Siege looks like a bit more like a throwback to R6 3 with added goodies like dropping down from the roof.

 

[PROKNIFER69]

I just saw R6 Siege. It actually looks like quite decent and destructible environments are a very nice addition.

I disliked R6 vegas because it had TPS cover system and the gameplay was too fast paced. Careful aiming was actually important in Rogue Spears.It made for a game where positioning was more important then reflexes.

Siege looks like a bit more like a throwback to R6 3 with added goodies like dropping down from the roof.

I'm very excited for it too. I like that you only get one life, but people are acting as if that's something new. XD It'd be cool to see some destructible environments in Cyberpunk (as shown in the R6 trailer) or just some materials you can shoot through, doesn't even have to be destructible so long as a bullet can reach my target through a dry wall.

 

[Harthwain]

I've seen price drop on "Overgrowth" on Steam and checked out what this is out of curiosity. I must say I find the combat there looking great (although I don't really know the background details). If they manage to come up with something looking just as great - not a copy, mind you, something that both looks great and requires to use a brain - and having an actual depth, then I might consider using melee in adition to usual firearm skills that I take in games with guns.

 

[Suhiira]

That's a surefire method of driving me away from the game. I've no interest in scifi shooters at all, and the gaming market is already riddled with them (for "casuals" to sink their teeth in among other genres).

But it would probably sell better than a game with hardline RPG mechanics to consider, so there's that.

You and me both.
And I agree, a game that's "different" (i.e. hardline RPG mechanics) would not only sell better (because as you said shooters are a dime a dozen) but maybe, just maybe, convince a few people "RPG" isn't a dirty word.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

As any good salesman can tell you, it's much easier to move a product in an already existing market then it is to be a trailblazer.

Because you don't have to sell the benefit of the concept itself. The only thing that you need to do is to beat the existing competition.

First mover advantage is BS.

 

[Suhiira]

So we should let salesmen rule our lives.

WAIT !!!!
That fire thing is NEW it's bad, bad, bad ...

 

[Harthwain]

And I agree, a game that's "different" (i.e. hardline RPG mechanics) would not only sell better (because as you said shooters are a dime a dozen) but maybe, just maybe, convince a few people "RPG" isn't a dirty word.

I would disagree with the statement that "RPG is a dirty word". I'd rather claim RPG to be misunderstood or falsely advertized and as effect are seen as a bunch of stats/abilities, etc. or/and a some kind of PnP system, while the true core of RPG is - to me - role playing your character. That's why I don't need PnP system or stats and abilities to play RPG, as long as the game allows me to role play my character by allowing me to make my choices in abundance.

As any good salesman can tell you, it's much easier to move a product in an already existing market then it is to be a trailblazer. Because you don't have to sell the benefit of the product itself. First mover advantage is BS.

"World of Warcraft" (to showcast only the gaming industry) is proof to the contrary. There is benefit of being a pioneer, but you need to hit the mark.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

So we should let salesmen rule our lives.

WAIT !!!!
That fire thing is NEW it's bad, bad, bad ...

Are you ever going to use anything else other then strawman as your opening counter-argument?

"World of Warcraft" (to showcast only the gaming industry) is proof to the contrary. There is benefit of being a pioneer, but you need to hit the mark.

Eh, ever heard of Everquest? What happened to EQ?

 

[Sardukhar]

Are you ever going to use anything else other then strawman as your opening counter-argument?

if it is a straw man argument, ignore it. If it is not, argue the point. Accusing someone else of using such a tactic is as useless as the tactic itself, and more inflammatory. So, to everyone, let's avoid "that's a straw man argument!" or " That's an ad hominem attack!" Especially when it is.

I had to merge posts! It's like you people want me to do work around here! It took -seconds- SECONDS of my precious, precious lifespan. Away from playing video games!

 

[Harthwain]

Eh, ever heard of Everquest? What happened to EQ?

There were many attempts between Everquest and World of Warcraft to create a MMO with monthly payment. All of them failed. It's no coincidence that WoW's success caused boom for MMO genre. It was too big a success not to. That's why I think games will benefit from fresh approach. This push evolutional wheel turning and creates diversification. If I see melee combat system - fist fighting, for example - close to that of TWs or H:A in CP77 I will feel insulted. WWE RAW Ultimate Impact had amazing fist combat alone (at least I think it was WWE RAW, but it was a long time since I played the demo) and was years before TWs and H:A.

 

[vongo.859]

I've seen price drop on "Overgrowth" on Steam and checked out what this is out of curiosity. I must say I find the combat there looking great (although I don't really know the background details). If they manage to come up with something looking just as great - not a copy, mind you, something that both looks great and requires to use a brain - and having an actual depth, then I might consider using melee in adition to usual firearm skills that I take in games with guns.

I remember hearing about that game well over a year ago, and even then people were saying how great the combat was. I haven't played it, but the videos of it make it look really fast, fluid, and powerful, all of which I like. Of course a copy of that wouldn't work for a number of reasons, namely the setting being completely different and humans don't fight like overgrown rabbits. Still, my ideal combat system would be a mesh of other combat systems, including that one. I think these two videos do an adequate job of demonstrating the game. For the second video, skip to around 1:50 for combat.

Now just for my own benefit, I'm going to list my thought process for the combination of combat systems I want to see in CP77, even though it probably only makes sense in my head.

- I think GTA V has the basics of a good combat system in place. The fighting is simple, which I think is fitting for most classes in this game, but it isn't satisfying enough. There should be more to it, but not too much more, since most characters won't have the extensive combat training that Batman or Wei Shen from Sleeping Dogs have.
- This doesn't only apply to the combat, but the ragdoll in GTA V is the best ragdoll I've seen in any other game I've played. It isn't perfect, so if CDPR could improve on it that would be great, but I would also be happy with simply a copy. What I don't want to see are limbs twisting around as if each one became possessed by tiny epileptic demons.
- Being able to man-handle dead bodies. Grabbing them, dragging them, carrying them, placing them, throwing them, and even harvesting their limbs to sell on the black market.
- Blood and gore as seen in Witcher 3. That looks good so far.
- Grappling and holding hostages as seen in Saints Row.
- Usage of environment to take down an enemy. Build on what Sleeping Dogs was able to do.
- Counter attacks similar to Sleeping Dogs and Rocksteady's Batman series, but such that it fits the setting of the game.
- Freedom of movement and fluid pacing of fights as seen in Overgrowth. Having not actually played this game, I can't offer much more than that.

If I could be pleasantly surprised, that would be great, but I would also be perfectly happy with that clusterfuck of ideas I listed.