Combat system

[dragonbird]

Sard, that is an indescribably wonderful picture. I'm actually considering changing my avatar...

Give me a few hours to drink in its awesomeness before we go back on-topic, please.

 

[Sardukhar]

Give me a few hours to drink in its awesomeness before we go back on-topic, please.

You're so funny. "Back on topic." It is to laugh.


I actually had a whole thought about game systems, depth vs fun and complexity, comparing the depth of experience and choice in Original Sin vs something liek GTA V...and then lost it.

Had bits about combat, world manipulation, social systems, so forth and how perhaps we trade a broader game ( GTA 5 drive shoot) for a deeper experience ( DOS sneak/fight/solve/chat) and where CP2077 and Witcher 3 will fall.

Maybe it will come back later.

 

[Suhiira]

MAD DRAGONBIRD.

I vote for #3.

As important as the game/skill system and depth of choice is in a game presentation is just as critical.

Take Bloodlines for instance. Who can forget your shitty little apartment, the church turned bar/club, the Princes office, Chinatown, the haunted hotel? The setting and artwork gave each of those locations "character" and "atmosphere" that helped you the player feel that they were part of the world not just passing thru it on your way to your next mission objective.

 

[Harthwain]

Take Bloodlines for instance. Who can forget your shitty little apartment, the church turned bar/club, the Princes office, Chinatown, the haunted hotel? The setting and artwork gave each of those locations "character" and "atmosphere" that helped you the player feel that they were part of the world not just passing thru it on your way to your next mission objective.

I, for one. I didn't get that feel of being part of the world. I played as Nosferatu and didn't realize I had to walk through servers until I made it into mid-late game when severs became mandatory to reach some places. 'Till then I nonchalantly walked the streets. It turned out that detection radius was so big I didn't have to concern myself with common people realizing that I am not human (due to me being ugly). It was disappointing as the whole point of this clan is to remain unseen and operate on the fringes of society.

 

[JackieEstacado]

I'm a huge fan of counter-striking, so I think that, if light and heavy attacks will be implemented, I'd like that light attacks on counter hit dealed more damage, and if timed perfectly right after the opponent is starting to charge his blow (it should be difficult to do so) they should stun him in a stagger animation.
If parried/blocked, light attacks should have a recovery time animation, leaving you open to foes attack.

Strong attacks should be slow, exposing yourself to counterstrike during animation, but they should break guards and knock away the opponent if they land on him.
Strong attacks on counter should knock the enemy next to you, allowing you to strike him only once, when he's grounded.

If parried, projectiles should deal a bit of damage anyway (except for a class that has high resistance against fire arms).

Evading moves should be effective to dodge heavy attacks, less to avoid light attacks.
Guard should be really useful against light attacks, almost useless for heavy attacks.

Reversal should stun opponents to a follow up combo string, but if performed with a wrong timing you should be stunned by enemy's attack and left vulnerable to combo strings.

The same principle should be valid for throws, if they will make it in the game. A throw will anticipate heavy attacks and will have priority on enemy reversals attempts,
but will stun you if anticipated by foes' light attacks.

Combos in close combat should allow the mix up of firearms attacks without aiming zoom, but they should deal less damage (except for shotgun and assault rifle).
In long ranged fights, obviously, guns'n'grenades should win all hands down.

 

[Meujeuh]

(I also posted this in the thread "Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs 'fun'", as both threads seem to be about this topic.)

To answer the initial question, I would love the basic gameplay to be a 3D shooter (with 3rd person view), but not a mere 3D shooter. (And no, I don't like turn-based combat systems much, and Shadowrun Returns already tried this out anyway.)

Actually, the system used in Mass Effect was not a bad one to start with IMHO, but you could go further.

First, I would love the level of zoom to be adjustable at any moment. This way, you could have either a far view of the action (which could be very helpful for scheduling your actions during a covert op, for instance) or a view very close to the character (which could be very helpful during gunfights, or to dodge things).

Then, I would love the combat system to take into account RPG's elements, and not only being about shooting faster than the mobs. You could imagine, for instance, a semi-automatic lock (which locks enemies faster if you point your gun in the right direction, or if you have a lot of points in your gun skill). You could also imagine that the effect of cyber-implants improving the reactivity of our character would be to allow the player to enter a slow motion mode during a few seconds (useful for planning your next actions in combat) -but not pausing the game-.

Finally, since teamplay is important in Cyberpunk (as in most pen-and-paper RPGs), I would love to be able to hire teammates, that I could give detailed orders to in combat (a system similar to the one of Mass Effect).

(By the way, please forgive my English, I am French.)

 

[Suhiira]

I'm going to exercise self discipline and not respond to the last couple posts at all rather then the way I'd like to.

 

[Meujeuh]

I'm going to exercise self discipline and not respond to the last couple posts at all rather then the way I'd like to.

Well, I am sorry if I upset you. I guess not everyone has the same expectations about this game. Hope it will be great anyway!

 

[Suhiira]

Well, I am sorry if I upset you. I guess not everyone has the same expectations about this game. Hope it will be great anyway!

Not upset per-say, but throughout the forums you can find any number of threads concerning combat in CP2077. And none of them indicate the game is likely to be an RTS/FPS. There may well (and probably will) be elements in the combat system that are similar but the game is first and foremost a role-playing-game not a shooter.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yes, this is a good point that Suhiir makes and one I was going to make last night.

More for the Gameplay thread than this one, though - talking about what you want in terms of combat is perfectly appropriate and even on-topic (!!) in the combat system thread.

So, in fact, this thread is an excellent place to talk about combat in CP2077.

Now, the Gameplay thread - that's really about much, much more than mere combat, which although important and present in CP2077 will hopefully not be a defining characteristic.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

They DID say that player skills was going to matter more then stats.

I don't know how they can do it without strong FPS elements. I am hoping for something like ArmA or (original) R6,

but if I were to put money on it, my guess would be something like Deus Ex

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Not upset per-say, but throughout the forums you can find any number of threads concerning combat in CP2077. And none of them indicate the game is likely to be an RTS/FPS. There may well (and probably will) be elements in the combat system that are similar but the game is first and foremost a role-playing-game not a shooter.

To be fair, poet is right here (not that I'd agree it's a good idea, and Arma style combat is the very last thing I'd want for this particular game) in that they did imply they are doing their best to keep the skills and abilities as superficial and meaningless as possible at least regarding combat; to me that reads so that the fratboys and -girls of this world don't lose momentum because "skills" other than the players' ruin the immershun in the FPS action combat.

And it rubs me in all the wrong ways... If that's how it is going to be with combat, then why not water down the rest of the skill/stat systems and related gameplay too? It'd be consistent.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Skills/stats have their place, even in (story-driven) FPS.

Because simply put, minigames are boring. Certain things (like lockpicking) are simply better off abstracted away.

 

[Sardukhar]

) in that they did imply they are doing their best to keep the skills and abilities as superficial and meaningless as possible at least regarding combat

Quote? Because the only thing I remember seeing about this was a pretty vague comment that skills of the player will affect combat. Nothing about making character skills and abilities as meaningless as possible. Nothing at all.

They have repeatedly said it's going to be an RPG, and certainly Geralt's skills affected combat massively. Sure did in my games, anyway.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It was in the video interview maelcom posted in your gameplay thread.

we CERTAINLY want to avoid as much as possible the situation where your combat capabilities are that much dependent on the stats

Granted it's an old video and game developement is a living and breathing process, but I don't see a reason to doubt their words nor have I yet seen contradicting information.

Also, gotta say, I didn't find Geralt's skills all that heavy in impact, certainly not to the level if Gothic or Risen where you were a complete noob before you learned the skills you needed. But I also don't think it does nor should matter how Witcher fared its rules and systems, it's a different franchise and (hopefully) a different game.

 

[Suhiira]

To be fair, poet is right here ... in that they did imply they are doing their best to keep the skills and abilities as superficial and meaningless as possible at least regarding combat; to me that reads so that the fratboys and -girls of this world don't lose momentum because "skills" other than the players' ruin the immershun in the FPS action combat.

And it rubs me in all the wrong ways...

Agreed.
I guess they feel they have to cater to the console/FPS crowd so combat will favor FPS (player skill based) and RPG (character skill based) combat will be mostly ignored.

Quote? Because the only thing I remember seeing about this was a pretty vague comment that skills of the player will affect combat. Nothing about making character skills and abilities as meaningless as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxnQkY8G9s4
Check this at 2:54.

And while they definitely did NOT say they were going to make character skills and abilities as meaningless as possible it is pretty clear they're going to be a minor, at best, factor in combat.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

 

[Sardukhar]

Urgh. That...that is worrying, yes.

Good news - they make it clear there is more than combat.

We'll have to see how stat/skill dependent it is, as opposed to Player. You cannot have it too heavily stat/skill dependent and make it very action-y, not that I've ever seen. Gameplay slows too much. On the other hand, it's worrying that it's mostly player skill - but how much is mostly? 51%? 60% 80%?

Very worrying - even people who are fans of that playstyle should be concerned - what point is there to combat-rigged Roles like Solo, Cop and Nomad if you can be Ace Gunfighter Rockerboy? None at all - you may as well never play a combat Role and instead pick a social/tech Role instead.

Ironically, that course leads to combat Roles becoming much less important.

However, they didn't say character stat/skill was meaningless, just not as significant as player skill. It's a huge leap to assume they are trying to make your character's skillset irrelevant in combat.

Witcher, when I played it, was very dependent on Geralt's skillset. There was a huge uproar because the tutorial area was too hard, remember? By the time he has some serious Aard and Quen and sword skills, combat gets a LOT easier.

Never mind if you go down the Alchemy tree...then it's just easy street.

 

[Harthwain]

They didn't really clarify their position on "[...] it will be a true RPG game". It will be a true RPG game in what sense? Strong story line? Stats/perks being in game? When they said it won't be straight-up [multiplayer] shooter what did they mean by that? That it won't be just a shooter (because it'll be a true RPG game)? So it will be a shooter in terms of core combat? It ain't all that clear as people may think it is.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Gameplay slows too much.

In relation to what? How fast is fast enough? How slow is too slow? What's the right speed?

Very worrying - even people who are fans of that playstyle should be concerned - what point is there to combat-rigged Roles like Solo, Cop and Nomad if you can be Ace Gunfighter Rockerboy? None at all

Indeed.

However, they didn't say character stat/skill was meaningless, just not as significant as player skill. It's a huge leap to assume they are trying to make your character's skillset irrelevant in combat.

Well, I don't know how many different ways there are to interpret "we certainly want to avoid as much as possible"... *shrug*

Of course, if there are skills, they are going to do "something". There are skills in a game like Fallout 3 too, and they do have an effect. Only that the effect is so minor that the skills might not even be there, and their existence seemed to be just nod to RPG traditions than a defining element of the character. There was little to no effective incentive to invest in those skills because there was no tradeoff for not doing so, and if you did, there was little to no mechanical payoff. The game could've probably worked better if they weren't there and the gameplsy was balanced accordingly, which of course would've alienated even more of the series fans, but what would it have mattered if those people were not to be catered to anyway? That's just an example, you can draw the parallels to this situation.

Witcher, when I played it, was very dependent on Geralt's skillset. There was a huge uproar because the tutorial area was too hard, remember?

Wasn't that just the difficulty curve, though, done and recieved damage (and possibly some AI stuff), not so much how the skill system as a whole worked?