Politics in TW3

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yeah, i think the politics were significantly dumbed down and streamlined :/

-Temeria
-Redania
-Kaedwen
-Aedirn
-upper Aedirn/Lormark/Saskia's Realm / Not Mentioned -.-
-Scoia'tael / Not mentioned -.-
-Nilfgaard

Are all turned into Redania vs Nilfgaard + vassal state of Temeria

Exactly. And the only explanation we get is that Radovid is apparently such a military genius, that he was able to not only fend off Nilfgaard but EVERYONE ELSE, in a matter of months, making an idiotic insane plan of conquering the North in the middle of a Nilfgaardian invasion work. Instantly simplying the conflict, as you said, excluding the entirety of the North.

Wouldn`t it have been a lot more interesting to see the North trying to cooperate in a coalition, with Radovid at its head? It didn`t even need to be shown, I think politics in TW3 should have remained in the bg and instead what we get are rumors, hearsay, and mentions. Of us hearing how henselt and Radovid are struggling to cooperate. How Saskia is trying to organize a joint human / nonhuman resistance, while resisting the temptation to fight Radovid for what he is doing....etc.

But instead of this, we get Faction A vs Faction B, with small Faction C being divided into pro Faction A but without Radovid and pro-Faction B.

So on one hand they make Radovid this walking Deux ex Machina, capable of such military genius as to become absurd, and they also make him Loredo 2.0, except with even less subtelty as even Loredo did not talk like a raving lunatic (and that is precisely why Loredo was such a damn effective villain, and why Radovid in contrast is turned into a joke).

It would have been more interesting to see Radovid realize that his choice to side with the Order is going to drag him into making such policies, where he feels he has no choice but to feed the fire that he lit. It would have been a poignant remark and observation at how fanaticism grows, and how politicians who toy with such beliefs end up needing to do appease them more and more and more (and such an astute commentary that would be to modern day politics).
Or, Radovid would have been infinitely more effective and terrifying, if he coldly believes that he needs to wipe out everything different, in his quest to create a modern homogenous state. It would perfectly represent the cold harsh violent reality of the birth of the modern state, that disspassionately gets rid of anything that is different while playing into populism.

Our own history is not so simple as to think that only, or msotly, madmen and lunatics were behind such developments and transformations.

But instead we get this. A mediocre portrayal that is simplistic on one hand, and with poor characterization and missed opportunity for thematic relevance on the other. This is very disappointing.

 

[yokokorama]

Personally, I am disappointed with the politics of the game. TW2 is ignored, and most of what happened there is as if they never happened. And instead, we get a generic, simplistic, streamlined portrayal.

I was very upset to see this. I was not expecting something on TW2's level, which is a masterpiece in the portrayal of politics, but this is way worse than what I had expected.

I remember about 2.5 years ago when we got a Game Informer preview about a quest. I believe it had something to do with an Ice Giant and one of the Viking clans in Skellige. I recall you made a thread about it, calling the politics of that quest simplistic. I said to myself "no way, the game will come out and surprise us all."

But lol I guess you were right in the end man.

 

[CTPhipps]

To be fair, I liked Assassin of Kings' handling of the North.

They can't fight as a coalition because of Letho AND the fact the Northern Kings are all jerks.

I also like Radovid's betrayal of Henselt because it is the kind of military audacity which gets praised a lot in the real world.

 

[whiplash27]

Radovid betraying Henselt makes no sense just because of the fact that both kings would have known that Nilfgaard was invading. Sile tells you that Nilfgaard was fording the Yaruga as they spoke. If you're being invaded, going to war with a potential ally makes no sense at all.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

@yokokorama
Even back then I didn't expect something like this sadly.

I also like Radovid's betrayal of Henselt because it is the kind of military audacity which gets praised a lot in the real world.

No. It is simple stupidity and insanity, which would never work, even with a supposed "tactical genius."
It's actually the most idiotic plot hammer as far as I am concerned, both for making Radovid do it and for making him somehow succeed.

 

[CTPhipps]

No. It is simple stupidity and insanity, which would never work, even with a supposed "tactical genius."

It's actually the most idiotic plot hammer as far as I am concerned, both for making Radovid do it and for making him somehow succeed.

Are you familiar with this man?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fileadmin/historyLearningSite/Saladin.jpg

Saladin of the Third Crusade (on the opposite side, obviously) had a strategy which allowed him to conquer the entirety of the Middle East and Egypt. It consisted of him invading the territories of his fellow Muslims, defeating them, and then promptly absorbing their armies and turning them against his next opponents. Likewise, there are hundreds of other examples throughout history of countries being conquered only to immediately invade other nations with the conquered nation's military.

For those who believe it's unbelievable, I remind you of the Vichy French collaborating with Hitler up and to and including fight against the Allies.

---------- Updated at 05:31 AM ----------

Radovid betraying Henselt makes no sense just because of the fact that both kings would have known that Nilfgaard was invading. Sile tells you that Nilfgaard was fording the Yaruga as they spoke. If you're being invaded, going to war with a potential ally makes no sense at all.

This, again, is something which has happened in real-life. People invade potential allies and then solidify their control because there's a bigger threat nearby.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I don't think Radovid betrayed Henselt in any way. As we are told in the game, Henselt died/was killed (either by Roche, or some time later), and Kaedwen had no king when the invasion started. Nilfgaardians were pouring into Aedirn, and before they overrun it and cross Pontar into Kaedwen, Radovid did the wisest and the most responsible thing - he moved his troops east and took over Kaedwen. Now he controls everything North of Pontar, while Nilfgaard is struggling to control the lands to the south of Pontar.

Geralt remarks that may be Nilfgaard should be content with that, make peace and go home. But, as he is told, Radovid wouldn't have it, which is absolutely correct, because Nilfgaard will eventually show up again, several years from now, but in a much better shape. So Radovid presses to decide the fate of the North here and now, while he has enough popular support, and Nilfgaard is rather devastated by its conquest of Temeria and Aedirn.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Are you familiar with this man?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fileadmin/historyLearningSite/Saladin.jpg

Nice try, historian here. Specialized in Islamic medieval history, to boot.

Let me tell you exactly what happened, when Saladin decided to betray his sultan Noor al Din Zengi.
First of all, thanks to Noor al Din, the Saracens were actually pressing the Crusaders, who had lost the advantage and were severily weakened (due in large part to their defeat in Egypt, when they tried to collaborate with the Fatimid Vizier, Shawar). Saladin did not pull off his betrayal in the middle of a massive invasion.
Second of all, Saladin was raised in Damascus, and his family, the Ayyubids had legitimacy and presence in the Levant. They had sway and legitimacy.
Thirdly, Noor al Din was mobilizing to fight Saladin, which every historian arguing that it would have been a disaster. Saladin was lucky that Noor al Din died of a stroke a few weeks before.
Forthly, the differences between Egypt and the Levant were not the same as Redania and Kaedwen, and the former twoo had already been unified at the hands of Noor al Din. What Saladin did was simply take power after Noor al Din died, and not invade the Levant, with the exception of Aleppo which was a Zengid stronghold (Noor al Din's son refused to swear allegiance).

Radovid on the other hand decides to invade a sovereign, powerful nation like Kaedwen, which potentially was in its zenith, when he has no legitimacy whatsoever in Kaedwen, where Redania has no history of closeness with the country, and in the middle of an invasion from an Empire that has consistently bested the North when it was not united.

As for the example of Vichy, first of all using Nazi strategy as an example is the act of a layperson, Nazi foreign policy was irrational and idiotic. But the example is also flawed massively because of several reasons. First of all, rapid invasions and conquests were possible thanks to technological advancements and the German military doctrine (loosely speaking, most serious historians do not actually believe that the "blitzkrieg" was an official military doctrine like the Soviet Deep Battle doctrine). Medieval warfare was not the same. Second of all, at the time Nazi Germany was not threatened with invasion, and the situation it was in has nothing to do with Redania's position.

The equivalent to your example would have been for the Soviet Union to invade Norway while under attack by the Nazis, which of course they didn't do. EDIT: I meant Norway, not Finland. Even though the USSR did not invade Finland during WW2, the Finnish participated in the invasion of course. EDIT 2: Even so it's not a great example. I dislike using historical examples to mirror other events, each case is unique. I suppose it would be the equivalent of the Byzantine empire trying to conquer the Sassanids in the middle of the Muslim invasion. Would have made little sense.

So both your arguments are historically inaccurate I am afraid.

 

[CTPhipps]

Besides, it makes a great deal more sense in the Roche path.

The Kadewinni don't want to be Nilfgaard's puppets.

So they join their banner to Radovid.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think Radovid betrayed Henselt in any way. As we are told in the game, Henselt died/was killed (either by Roche, or some time later), and Kaedwen had no king when the invasion started. Nilfgaardians were pouring into Aedirn, and before they overrun it and cross Pontar into Kaedwen, Radovid did the wisest and the most responsible thing - he moved his troops east and took over Kaedwen. Now he controls everything North of Pontar, while Nilfgaard is struggling to control the lands to the south of Pontar.

From what I understood, he pulls off an invasion, and not an arrangement with local Kaedweni forces to coordinate a joint defense. Even if Henselt is forced to die in all scenarios (which is lazy writing), Kaedwen won't just become a doormat, waiting for anyone to move their army there and take it.

Had they elaborated that Radovid made deals with Kaedweni nobles, and somehow managed to make himself popular there, then I can see him establishing an arrangement, and joint military coordination between Kaedweni forces and Redania. From what I gathered however, it was an invasion and forceful annexation. Someone do correct me if I am wrong however.

If it was an invasion, it is a stupid plot hammer. But even if it is not, the whole thing screams of laziness, because they want to streamline and simplify the conflict as much as possible.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

From what I understood, he pulls off an invasion, and not an arrangement with local Kaedweni forces to coordinate a joint defense. Even if Henselt is forced to die in all scenarios (which is lazy writing), Kaedwen won't just become a doormat, waiting for anyone to move their army there and take it.

Had they elaborated that Radovid made deals with Kaedweni nobles, and somehow managed to make himself popular there, then I can see him establishing an arrangement, and joint military coordination between Kaedweni forces and Redania. From what I gathered however, it was an invasion and forceful annexation. Someone do correct me if I am wrong however.

If it was an invasion, it is a stupid plot hammer. But even if it is not, the whole thing screams of laziness, because they want to streamline and simplify the conflict as much as possible.

There is simply not enough material to say whether it was an arrangement, or an invasion. As far as I know now, it was briefly described - Henselt died, Radovid took over Kardwen and stopped Nilfgaard from crossing Pontar. Strategically it makes perfect sense because it is simply not good to have two separate Nilfgaardian armies threatening Redania from east and south. Whether CDPR should have elaborated on this, or not, I can't say. I wouldn't mind it either way.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is simply not enough material to say whether it was an arrangement, or an invasion. As far as I know now, it was briefly described - Henselt died, Radovid took over Kardwen and stopped Nilfgaard from crossing Pontar. Strategically it makes perfect sense because it is simply not good to have two separate Nilfgaardian armies threatening Redania from east and south. Whether CDPR should have elaborated on this, or not, I can't say. I wouldn't mind it either way.

I don't disagree. Even though I'd still be displeased with Henselt being killed off no matter what, I would find it plausible that Radovid managed to gather the Kaedweni nobility and draft out an arrangement allowing for a joint defense. As you say, it makes perfect sense for Radovid to want to make sure Nilfgaard can't cross the Pontar. It would not however make sense for Radovid to throw away resources and lives trying to forcefully conquer Kaedwen, nor is it believable or feasible that he'd succeed in a matter of months. After all, Kaedwen is the largest kingdom in the North.

 

[CTPhipps]

I don't disagree. Even though I'd still be displeased with Henselt being killed off no matter what, I would find it plausible that Radovid managed to gather the Kaedweni nobility and draft out an arrangement allowing for a joint defense. As you say, it makes perfect sense for Radovid to want to make sure Nilfgaard can't cross the Pontar. It would not however make sense for Radovid to throw away resources and lives trying to forcefully conquer Kaedwen, nor is it believable or feasible that he'd succeed in a matter of months. After all, Kaedwen is the largest kingdom in the North.

Well, the game actually did address how Radovid kept himself in charge. He's claiming he's going to restore Kadewin and Temeria's borders to their original state (and presumably other lands).

So there IS an arrangement.

It's just we all know Radovid is lying, unless he plans to do an "Exact Words" sort of thing like making all of the lands have Kings but himself as Emperor.

It's also possible, given the way European nobility interbreeds, Radovid has a claim to the Kadewinni throne or was able to bribe the Kadewin nobility somehow.

Everyone knows NONE of them will have any territory if Nilfgaard wins, though.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well, the game actually did address how Radovid kept himself in charge. He's claiming he's going to restore Kadewin and Temeria's borders to their original state (and presumably other lands).

So there IS an arrangement.

From what I understood, that's the excuse he is making after invading, to the people he is annexing and not a pre-arranged agreement. But I could be wrong, and it could have been an arrangement. Either way, CDPR should have clarified, because as it stands, to me the whole excuse they are using to simplify the invasion is simply not plausible.

Ideally however, they should not have been this lazy, or this intent on simplifying the conflict into a conflict between two factions.

But oh well. There is little use arguing about it. What's done is done. I am better off sleeping.

EDIT: I do apologize if I sound aggressive or salty though. TW2 is very dear to me, and my disappointment might make my tone be a bit belligerent, which is not intended.

 

[CTPhipps]

Well, Vesemir takes Radovid at his word and while it's probably ridiculous, it's very likely it's not just a rumor but something he's actually told the nobility and promised to them.

Vesemir isn't an idiot, after all, even if he's overly idealistic.

Besides, we saw Radovid intended to make Temeria a vassal-state of Redania in Witcher 2 with Anais. So he's not interested in, necessarily, complete annexation.

Much like Nilfgaard, he's smarter than that. Well, when he's not either crazy or drunk (I'm not sure which we're supposed to take from his speeches).

 

[vivaxardas2015]

That's why I do not see Radovid in TW3 as a complete moron. Unbalanced - yes, a bit over-enthusiastic about burning things - yes, but he is not an idiot. He is the man who can save the North, and, as I understand, if we do not help with assassination, he wins the war. The North may be not such a jolly place to live if you are a mage or a non-human, but hey, nothing is perfect in the world of the witcher.

 

[CTPhipps]

That's why I do not see Radovid in TW3 as a complete moron. Unbalanced - yes, a bit over-enthusiastic about burning things - yes, but he is not an idiot. He is the man who can save the North, and, as I understand, if we do not help with assassination, he wins the war. The North may be not such a jolly place to live if you are a mage or a non-human, but hey, nothing is perfect in the world of the witcher.

I think both Sigi and Triss also overestimate Radovid's evil too. He's a monster, yes, but Triss acts like Radovid is persecuting mages because of their wealth and the nonhumans are next.

When, no, Radovid is persecuting mages very specifically because of the Lodge.

He also doesn't persecute the ones who belong to the Conclave.

 

[DuranA]

Besides, we saw Radovid intended to make Temeria a vassal-state of Redania in Witcher 2 with Anais. So he's not interested in, necessarily, complete annexation.

Whereas the ending makes it clear he does annex the entire North, Roche mentions as much in the game.

He's a monster, yes, but Triss acts like Radovid is persecuting mages because of their wealth and the nonhumans are next.

They actually are next, when you get the mages out of Novigrad and when you return there after Kaer Morhen you find non-humans being hunted down with Geralt remarking that the witch hunt was never about mages but about finding a scapegoat.

He's also executing alchemists, who are not mages, and village pellars.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Sure, all of it was obvious already in TW2. If you recall what Dandellion tells about chaos in people's minds after the assassinations - people do not know whom to believe anymore. Radovid has to bring a measure of stability, peace of mind to common folk, and to establish himself as the chief protector of the North. For it he must find someone and give it to the people. So he sacrificed the mages, both because his personal grudges and negative experience, and for the sake of stability. It is not nice, sure, but there is nothing insane about it.

Also the war requires coins, and non-human, especially dwarves, play a role of real history Jews. Radovid does need their wealth because wars are expensive, but he is doing no more than Philip IV of France. I don't see anything insane about his actions. Sure, he is trying to ride on a wave of religious fanaticism, but he is handling it all right. Unsavory to look at, cruel and inhumane, but probably necessary for Northern unity and victory over Nilfgaard.

 

[CTPhipps]

Sure, all of it was obvious already in TW2. If you recall what Dandellion tells about chaos in people's minds after the assassinations - people do not know whom to believe anymore. Radovid has to bring a measure of stability, peace of mind to common folk, and to establish himself as the chief protector of the North. For it he must find someone and give it to the people. So he sacrificed the mages, both because his personal grudges and negative experience, and for the sake of stability. It is not nice, sure, but there is nothing insane about it.

Also the war requires coins, and non-human, especially dwarves, play a role of real history Jews. Radovid does need their wealth because wars are expensive, but he is doing no more than Philip IV of France. I don't see anything insane about his actions. Sure, he is trying to ride on a wave of religious fanaticism, but he is handling it all right. Unsavory to look at, cruel and inhumane, but probably necessary for Northern unity and victory over Nilfgaard.

I think that gives Radovid way more credit than his bigotry deserves. The money stolen from mages goes to the Eternal Fire, not the war effort as we see.