Cyberpunk 2077 Devs Break Down First-Person Storytelling

[greeks]

I often use this kind of words... because obviously, like many thing, it's always (all almost) matter of taste/opinion/point of view... And luckily for me, I love the game

Yep, who know
But "in my opinion", that need more than few peoples for switch all the things in Cyberpunk to TPP from FPP.

You don't need ALL of things to be switched. Like I said, the most rage-inducing ones are when being in first person does not contribute anything to the scene. You sit on a chair, you have only one point of view, you are an observer of other people "dancing" around you.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

You sit on a chair, you have only one point of view, you are an observer of other people "dancing" around you.

When ?
I wonder, because most of time when your sit somewhere and not able to move, it's because there is a NPC nearby that you have to speak or listen (or look).
And most of time, the important thing is to look closely the NPCs (in its eyes, like I quote in my previous post). But yeah, maybe you're not going that far in the game...

The scene with Panam and Aldecaldos around the campfire won't work in third person in my opinion, because the "important" thing is Panam and her expression/look (not Night City in background, not Mitch who drink his beer, not the campfire...). Watching this scene in a "movies" way will broke all the interest...


Like I said, I would love to be able to play Mass Effect in first person... that would be amazing. I could go to the official forum (if there is one) and claim that FPP is better, why I can't, that it will improve my experience by a lot (and maybe also for other players).
But Devs have made an artistic decision, that Mass Effect is a TPP only and will probably/certainly remains like that whatever I could say/want or the arguments that I could submit.
So I suppose if there is futur Mass Effect, it will remain in TPP only and I will/must do with the TPP anyway

 

[nukeheal]

This could have been 5 hours long video. And I would watch every minute of it.

 

[maniak6767]

When ?
I wonder, because most of time when your sit somewhere and not able to move, it's because there is a NPC nearby that you have to speak or listen (or look).
And most of time, the important thing is to look closely the NPCs (in its eyes, like I quote in my previous post). But yeah, maybe you're not going that far in the game...

The scene with Panam and Aldecaldos around the campfire won't work in third person in my opinion, because the "important" thing is Panam and her expression/look (not Night City in background, not Mitch who drink his beer, not the campfire...). Watching this scene in a "movies" way will broke all the interest...


Like I said, I would love to be able to play Mass Effect in first person... that would be amazing. I could go to the official forum (if there is one) and claim that FPP is better, why I can't, that it will improve my experience by a lot (and maybe also for other players).
But Devs have made an artistic decision, that Mass Effect is a TPP only and will probably/certainly remains like that whatever I could say/want or the arguments that I could submit.
So I suppose if there is futur Mass Effect, it will remain in TPP only and I will/must do with the TPP anyway

It was explained (by devs)why, in some situations, player is limited. I don't know why there's need to explain it even more.

All scenes would be different in TPP, that's obvious (many of them would be worse, cheap). This talking TPPvsFPP is nonsense from beginning and shouldn't be even thing, why this even discussion? If you don't like FPP games, don't play Cyberpunk. It was advertised as FPP.

Characters from Cyberpunk are superior to ones from Witcher 3, because of perspective,face animations, body language. I think best shot in Witcher 3 was Ciri witcher ending, when she received sword from Geralt and you can see her reactions (eyes) from very close perspective , there was DETAIL and more details you will see while watching character more you will understand him/her.and connect with him/her. Cyberpunk is overloaded with it non stop, because even random NPCs can express their emotions via face animations, body language, eye contact.

 

[Martind_Forlon_]

This talking TPPvsFPP is nonsense from beginning and shouldn't be even thing, why this even discussion? If you don't like FPP games, don't play Cyberpunk. It was advertised as FPP.

I agreed with rest of post, however that quoted part is something what I strongly disagree with … that’s the purpose of forums to talk about different opinions which have different types of people. It’s also a way to look on things from different angle… that’s imo not bad at all.

 

[Audi82]

Edit : At the end, if you don't like FPP gameplay (or at least FPP cinematics) and find TPP way better, why play or choose a game publied and announced as FPP only ? In my case, I don't like MMO, I don't play this kind of games, that's all and fine

forgive me, but this statement doesn't have much sense: you're starting from the wrong assumption that first person game automatically mean first person cinematics, and that's not true at all, take Halo for example, or Doom ... first person games with third person cinematics (but there are many others...) and consider that in those games the appearance of your character is completely secondary! while in CP2077 you have a detailed editor to customize your V even in the genitals ... all of this in order to not let you see your character in action game basically anymore again...
CDP showed us trailers where we could see V in third person cinematics, like in the famous elevator sequence with Jackie, or when V wakes up in her apartment after getting laid with a dude, but I don't remember at all that they warned us afterwards, that we would never see third person cinematics in the finished game anymore....

 

[greeks]

It was explained (by devs)why, in some situations, player is limited. I don't know why there's need to explain it even more.

All scenes would be different in TPP, that's obvious (many of them would be worse, cheap). This talking TPPvsFPP is nonsense from beginning and shouldn't be even thing, why this even discussion? If you don't like FPP games, don't play Cyberpunk. It was advertised as FPP.

Characters from Cyberpunk are superior to ones from Witcher 3, because of perspective,face animations, body language. I think best shot in Witcher 3 was Ciri witcher ending, when she received sword from Geralt and you can see her reactions (eyes) from very close perspective , there was DETAIL and more details you will see while watching character more you will understand him/her.and connect with him/her. Cyberpunk is overloaded with it non stop, because even random NPCs can express their emotions via face animations, body language, eye contact.

The fact that devs explained why in some cases the player is restrained does not automatically excuses them from doing it. If I explain why I killed someone, does it automatically mean that I am free to go? "I killed them becaue I never liked them"-- "Oh, so you had a reason. Ok, you are free to go"

It doesn't matter if the characters or events are inferior or superior to anything. Cinematics have nothing to do with it. It's the creativity of making a scene appealing and interesting. First person view cinematics are always the same: one point of view, one camera angle, everything and everyone else walking around that one point.

Why do people love photo mode? Why do people love being on camera? Seeing their own bodies performing and posing? Why don't they just buy themselves a go-pro and record events from their point of view? Isn't it more intuitive and immersive? Because that's how they remember stuff, right? From first person view, not from seeing their own bodies from the third person perspective? Why don't you record your wedding by putting a camera on your head, pointing at your bride? I mean, wouldn't that angle be more immersive and just how you remember?

We all want to see ourselves as other people see us. We want to know what we look like for people around us. Maybe except for insecure people who hate seeing themselves and their bodies. But in general? Why do people run towards the camera on the street and all of a sudden there is a crowd of curious people behind the news speaker? And then those people would run back home to see themselves in the news? Why does that happen? Any guesses?

I do like FPP games and I do want to play Cyberpunk. CDPR made a lot of bad decisions and poor judgement when it comes to CP2077, and the decision to make everything in FPP is one of them.

 

[Guest 3847602]

but I don't remember at all that they warned us afterwards, that we would never see third person cinematics in the finished game anymore....

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...berpunk-2077-wont-have-third-person-cutscenes

 

[greeks]

I agreed with rest of post, however that quoted part is something what I strongly disagree with … that’s the purpose of forums to talk about different opinions which have different types of people. It’s also a way to look on things from different angle… that’s imo not bad at all.

It would indicate that you can have your own opinion. As long as it's a positive one.

 

[maniak6767]

I agreed with rest of post, however that quoted part is something what I strongly disagree with … that’s the purpose of forums to talk about different opinions which have different types of people. It’s also a way to look on things from different angle… that’s imo not bad at all.

We only discuss here things like that because OP thinks that CP as game is failure, never finished it, and whole narrative part of Cyberpunk is nothing special, that's why 1 hour long video abour devs being passionate about whole process creating game is good start to express it.So instead of talking about cool things in Cyberpunk, people in thread discuss 3-years old question: why this game is not TPP There's thread for that.

Based on video developers were studying a lot of streams people playing game to see how they play scenes, that's why I think our discussion about what kind of perspective we like in game or not, won't really contribute to their progress with their next titles.
I think that their approach is really good some things could improved, but overall it was something new for me to play and I agree that for this kind of story FPP was superior. I don't know how they plan to go back to TPP after something like this and I think going back to traditionial TPP cutscenes will be some kind of regress.
There's also problem with whole cinematography behind conversation sytem, because when you made TPP cutscene, all players will see things how devs want them to see it. With this system I think there will be also part of playerbase, who will completly miss it, because they rush games and won't waste time to frame scenes. On other hand you can also skip cutscenes, so...
Yesterday I watched "Spectre" and there's opening scene few minutes long (mainly action) done without cuts (there's some hidden cut after few minutes, but nevermind...) it's called technical achievment. We can play few dozens hours long story-heavy, dialogue heavy game without almost any interrupts and cuts (minus moments when character loeses control over her/his body, few cutscenes, non-interactive sex scenes) , something not really done before and yet "its nothing special".

 

[LeKill3rFou]

It would indicate that you can have your own opinion. As long as it's a positive one.

So you think that, seem to be a positive opinion ? Or at least an opinion ?

I do like FPP games and I do want to play Cyberpunk. CDPR made a lot of bad decisions and poor judgement when it comes to CP2077, and the decision to make everything in FPP is one of them.

Because obviously, like I say previously, it's all matter of taste/opinion. Because I can say the opposite (but also add something in the sentence who can make a little difference) :
"I do like FPP games and I like Cyberpunk. In my opinion, CDPR made a lot of good decisions and great judgement when it comes to CP2077, and the decision to make everything in FPP is one of them."

Remember ?
Quick vs Mac Do / Pineapple Pizza vs Margherita / Ferrari vs Lamborghini / French Fries vs Potatoes / Mac vs PC / Playstation vs Xbox / Street Fighter vs Tekken / Gran tourismo vs Forza / .........
Matter of tastes/opinions/point of view

 

[greeks]

Yesterday I watched "Spectre" and there's opening scene few minutes long (mainly action) done without cuts (there's some hidden cut after few minutes, but nevermind...) it's called technical achievment. We can play few dozens hours long story-heavy, dialogue heavy game without almost any interrupts and cuts (minus moments when character loeses control over her/his body, few cutscenes, non-interactive sex scenes) , something not really done before and yet "its nothing special".

It is called "a technical achievement" because real actors had to redo the entire scene multiple times until they make it perfect. In case of a computer game, one guy had to manipulate numbers in a notepad untill all pre-recorded animations align into one scene. How do I know it was one guy? Because imagine trying to time something while your colleague is trying to time the same thing.

The difference is, on a computer you can make something perfect by spending a lot of time on it. In real life every single take involves actors and staff redoing the entire thing. If you want to compare it to gaming, imagine that every time the developer gets the timing wrong, all the mocap crew has to re-do all the animations again. THEN you have "one to one" comparison.

Call of Duty does that kind of narrative since Call of Duty 2 from 2005.

Yes, the devs were studying a lot of streams, and devs admitted that the streamers would rather put the controller away and watch the scene from one angle without moving the camera.

"I do like FPP games and I like Cyberpunk. In my opinion, CDPR made a lot of good decisions and great judgement when it comes to CP2077, and the decision to make everything in FPP is one of them."

Continuing your train of thought: "it's just your opinion, therefore invalid"

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Continuing your train of thought: "it's just your opinion, therefore invalid"

Nope, both are valid, none are the truth
CDPR decisions and judgements are great for some and bad for others. CDPR can't please everyone unfortunately and luckily for some, me included, they chosen to do it like that.
So you can't said it's a bad decision, because lot of players seem to like the fact that there is only FPP in the game.

 

[greeks]

I already said that CDPR would please everybody by making cutscenes in third and in first person, depending on which form works best for the scene. Case-to-case basis. We would avoid this entire conversation altogether if they did that.

But wait, there is more!

If Cyberpunk was created in Virtual Reality technology, I would have NOTHING AGAINST always fpp cutscenes! Virtual Reality games are the only ones in which classic cinematics would be a wrong choice!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I already said that CDPR would please everybody by making cutscenes in third and in first person, depending on which form works best for the scene.

They can't
By doing both, all of those who like FPP only (like me), wouldn't be pleased. I don't see a single cutscene in Cyberpunk that I want to see (or at least, think it will be better) in TPP. So nope, in my opinion, it's impossible to please everybody (TPP only, FPP only, both mixed or whatever...)
Besides, it's not bad, because otherwise we would all be playing the same games...

 

[greeks]

They can't
By doing both, all of those who like FPP only (like me), wouldn't be pleased. I don't see a single cutscene in Cyberpunk that I want to see (or at least, think it will be better) in TPP. So nope, in my opinion, it's impossible to please everybody (TPP only, FPP only, both mixed or whatever...)
Besides, it's not bad, because otherwise we would all be playing the same games...

No, I can't see you being displeased by anything in the game ever, no matter what they did.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

No, I can't see you being displeased by anything in the game ever, no matter what they did.

If CDPR continues to stick to the decisions and artistic choices they've already made, that's for sure, I can't

 

[Martind_Forlon_]

Btw, it for sure would come handy to have in Cyberpunk better created 3rd person model for various reasons like V's shadow, reflections, look on person details aka clothes etc. Personally I however really prefer 1st person view for play (including cut scenes which I mostly really liked how were created for Cyberpunk) and I learned lately that I simply do not like playing games in 3rd person anymore. As example I can give game Elite Dangerous which is played from 1st person view, but which get during development also 3rd person camera which allows (also) real ingame move from 3rd person view. You can see there all these awesome details from close (when zoom in camera) and look around, which is for me really awesome and I like it eventhough I simply love play from 1st person view.

 

[northwold]

If Cyberpunk was created in Virtual Reality technology, I would have NOTHING AGAINST always fpp cutscenes! Virtual Reality games are the only ones in which classic cinematics would be a wrong choice!

Why? Honest question. The only difference is that you're wearing a screen on your head.

So why should third person, by your thinking, be wrong? Exactly the same considerations apply: do you want the player to feel like they are having the experience, or that their character is having the experience. It doesn't change anything that you watch it on a headset.

I think basically we're just coming down to a matter of taste here. You like third person cinematics and stories presented in that manner. And that's OK.

 

[maniak6767]

I would like to add, that whole talking about Jackie and his cut is annoying as hell.
Game has III act structure, first act is just SETUP.
For example you can compare Cyberpunk 2077 to Fellowship of the Ring.
First act in that movie is Shire, idyllic place, just like Night City is this 'city of dreams" for both Jackie and V.
jackie is like Bilbo Baggins, he is just link to bigger story.
Second act in FotR starts when Frodo discover story behing ring and leaves Shire.
Second act of Cyberpunk you start under pile of trash.
You can make more comparisions, because both Cp and FotR use similar ways to tell story.
But most important thing 'shire episode' is like 1/5 of FotR. That's 1 act. And Cyberpunk's III act structure has similar proportions.
Whole "discussion" around it feels like some nonsense when you know about it.