A couple design features I would love. Ownership. many visible item slots. Ownership.

[Suhiira]

I can't get into Fallout 1... Wish I could. Bit too dated for me at this point. Same goes for Baldur's Gate, but I'm judging that one by its cover more since I haven't tried it myself.

Depends which is more important to you.
The game or it's mechanics/graphics.

P.S.
For it age Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition looks amazingly good even today.

 

[Snowflakez]

Depends which is more important to you.
The game or it's mechanics/graphics.

P.S.
For it age Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition looks amazingly good even today.

It's less the graphics and more the interfaces. That said, I haven't checked out Enhanced Edition yet, I'll see if it's on GoG for cheap.

 

[Suhiira]

It's less the graphics and more the interfaces. That said, I haven't checked out Enhanced Edition yet, I'll see if it's on GoG for cheap.

Well ... if you look at Baldur's Gate it will have a pretty complex UI, it has to have because of the number of options available.

I hear this far to often.
"I want a really complex game with tons of depth but the UI can't require more then a handful of buttons, no menus because they're too complex."
Yeah ... right ...

 

[Snowflakez]

Well ... if you look at Baldur's Gate it will have a pretty complex UI, it has to have because of the number of options available.

I hear this far to often.
"I want a really complex game with tons of depth but the UI can't require more then a handful of buttons, no menus because they're too complex."
Yeah ... right ...

That's not really what I said, though. I just said I don't like the interface. Nothing about complexity.

The interface can be as complex as you can possibly make it, but you can also make things more descriptive so you know what each menu is. Abstraction for the sake of abstraction adds absolutely nothing to the experience for me, and creates an environment of the whole toxic "if you don't get it you're just a noob and you shouldn't be playing this ub3r hardcor3 RPG, git gud". Not saying that's what you're getting at - its just an attitude I see pretty often when people ask for a better interface, not a more "Basic" or streamlined one.

 

[Suhiira]

That's not really what I said, though. I just said I don't like the interface. Nothing about complexity.

Sorry, didn't intend to imply you thought that, just that it's something I hear from time-to-time.

 

[Snowflakez]

Sorry, didn't intend to imply you thought that, just that it's something I hear from time-to-time.

All good. Not offended either way.

Anyway, on topic, here's a compromise for everyone: You don't own apartments, you don't own mansions, you don't own property, no major customization in those regards...

But you do own a vehicle. What that vehicle is? Up to your funds (that you accrue throughout the game) and your own whims, ultimately, but the better/more impressive the vehicle is, the more risk associated with using it, and the more expensive it should be to acquire in the first place. A crappy old beater or bike should be much less likely to attract attention than a fancy aerodyne.

CP 2020 itself makes note of players typically "living in their car", to reflect their mobile lifestyle. This is something I'm absolutely down with. Carrying very few possessions, staying on the move, getting jobs done... Sounds awesome to me.

But I do like the concept of owning a vehicle. Even if it's a beaten up, noisy, worthless piece of junk... It's yours. Even if you own nothing else in the entire game (Except equipment), you can almost establish a connection with a vehicle. It serves you well throughout the entire game, and if someone blows it up, there could be hell to pay - if you have the means and the motivation to get some payback.

Got too much junk on your person? Stash it there - but be aware of the risks. Those experienced with traps/demolitions can set up a few nasty surprises for would-be saboteurs or thieves, if they're good enough.

 

[Guest 4149880]

All good. Not offended either way.

Anyway, on topic, here's a compromise for everyone: You don't own apartments, you don't own mansions, you don't own property, no major customization in those regards...

But you do own a vehicle. What that vehicle is? Up to your funds (that you accrue throughout the game) and your own whims, ultimately, but the better/more impressive the vehicle is, the more risk associated with using it, and the more expensive it should be to acquire in the first place. A crappy old beater or bike should be much less likely to attract attention than a fancy aerodyne.

CP 2020 itself makes note of players typically "living in their car", to reflect their mobile lifestyle. This is something I'm absolutely down with. Carrying very few possessions, staying on the move, getting jobs done... Sounds awesome to me.

But I do like the concept of owning a vehicle. Even if it's a beaten up, noisy, worthless piece of junk... It's yours. Even if you own nothing else in the entire game (Except equipment), you can almost establish a connection with a vehicle. It serves you well throughout the entire game, and if someone blows it up, there could be hell to pay - if you have the means and the motivation to get some payback.

Got too much junk on your person? Stash it there - but be aware of the risks. Those experienced with traps/demolitions can set up a few nasty surprises for would-be saboteurs or thieves, if they're good enough.

I agree and like the concept of owning a vehicle that also acts as a secondary mobile inventory but I don't think owning or borrowing a place to live is in any way against the cyberpunk genre. It certainly fits within the world and I don't see a problem with living spaces in 2077.

I don't agree that the player must be broke living out of a cardboard box for the entirety of the game. Playing roles as corporates and cops don't leave them living on the street without a pot to piss in.

Should owning things within the world require some work to acquire, yes but not allowing the player to achieve it because of a genre theme is roleplaying restrictive. If I want a sports bike parked in a back alley garage under my less then stellar living space loft, why not.

 

[Snowflakez]

I agree and like the concept of owning a vehicle that also acts as a secondary mobile inventory but I don't think owning or borrowing a place to live is in any way against the cyberpunk genre. It certainly fits within the world and I don't see a problem with living spaces in 2077.

I don't agree that the player must be broke living out of a cardboard box for the entirety of the game. Playing roles as corporates and cops don't leave them living on the street without a pot to piss in.

Should owning things within the world require some work to acquire, yes but not allowing the player to achieve it because of a genre theme is roleplaying restrictive. If I want a sports bike parked in a back alley garage under my less then stellar living space loft, why not.

I agree, just thinking up a way to satisfy everyone. But I think the argument Sard has made is less that players can/should never have decent homes and vehicles, and more that it should never be totally safe - constantly living on the Edge seems to be a pretty common trend all throughout a 2020 campaign, from the start to the end.

But hey, maybe at the end of the game. Geralt ends his career retiring to a Toussaint vineyard after years and years of struggles, turmoil and living rough. Could do something similar here.

 

[Sardukhar]

I agree, just thinking up a way to satisfy everyone. But I think the argument Sard has made is less that players can/should never have decent homes and vehicles, and more that it should never be totally safe - constantly living on the Edge seems to be a pretty common trend .

Yep. That's it. You can have all the stuff you want - but you can lose it in a single mistake.

 

[Snowflakez]

Yep. That's it. You can have all the stuff you want - but you can lose it in a single mistake.

Just curious, what's the nicest thing you've ever taken from a player? And what caused it?

 

[Sardukhar]

Just curious, what's the nicest thing you've ever taken from a player? And what caused it?

Twin named force swords in Dark Heresy spring to mind, (having just run DH this week) just after the player in question acquired them. Caused by being kidnapped by slavers.

In Cyberpunk, hrm. Complete identity wipe, probably. Caused by pissing off the wrong people.

Oh, also several players' families. And homes. And stuff. Caused by making an error.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't agree that the player must be broke living out of a cardboard box for the entirety of the game. Playing roles as corporates and cops don't leave them living on the street without a pot to piss in.

Totally agreed.

Should owning things within the world require some work to acquire, yes but not allowing the player to achieve it because of a genre theme is roleplaying restrictive. If I want a sports bike parked in a back alley garage under my less then stellar living space loft, why not.

Own anything you want. If you can afford a zillion dollar mansion on a private island go for it. Just keep in mind that depending on your occupation and criminal history this may not be a smart idea.

 

[Guest 4149880]

Own anything you want. If you can afford a zillion dollar mansion on a private island go for it. Just keep in mind that depending on your occupation and criminal history this may not be a smart idea.

I just think there should be at least... options, not saying it will all go as planned, it rarely does but... options.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It's less the graphics and more the interfaces.

What's wrong with the interfaces in Fallout?

 

[Plaxeko]

Hey guys. Glad this topic got some movement. Just to clear some stuff up here. I don't mean to try to define what you own or how you own it, but what I mean is to make a point about virtual objects that feel like you earned them or their yours because of how you can customize them. For example. When I first played everquest, one of the first big pieces of loot I got was this thing called an executioners axe. I didn't know anything about it but a guy I was grouping with was telling me all the warriors around my level are trying to get them. I found out where it was that I needed to go, and then I got myself onto a team. I went through this ominous insane dungeon to make my way to the named mob called The Executioner. There he was holding that damn weapon. I could taste it. After a seemingly long time, I was able to secure it.

I have "owned" many weapons in games. Many of them are just the next good thing with good stats that I use until I get the next good thing. Or maybe they are some piece of gear I earned some points by grinding some stupid dungeon over and over and then got a tiered item. The reason in my opinion why people get tired of this game design is that it lacks the progression of getting something - even to mirror from real life. Think about it. What gives value to that machine you have sitting next to you with your Nvidia GTX 1080ti? Maybe you got it by saving all your summer job money. Or maybe your parents are wealthy and you just had to ask for it. Either way, you have a feeling of ownership over it. There is a sense of pride in it. There is a story to how you got it. And there is a progression to you finding out you wanted it, then figuring out how to get it, to then getting it and installing it...and finally using it and "owning" it...You can go around saying OH, yea I can talk about video cards because I have video card XXX...Let me compare it to your video card and tell you all the stuff....

Does that make sense? I am talking about owning in the sense that the item represents more than just stats and some cool looking thing. You want to have things like vehicles or houses or avatars with LOTS of customization because options let users make unique setups, which really help convince you the virtual world can be touched and manipulated. Then bringing in challenges to acquire something that weave in story or some extra twist make you feel ownership over that thing.

Sword of XXX in The Witcher 3 didn't feel like anything special. The stats were different and the hilt changed, but did I have an investment into that item in a deeper and more meaningful way? I don't know. I didn't feel like that. Don't get me wrong, I think The Witcher 3 is one of the finest RPG's ever made. I just would love to see a game world that can be touched.

Another example from an animation point of view is sheathing. Drawing a weapon... Smoking a cig. Drinking something. Eating something. Emoting. These things give us control over our character. The reason I brought up Skyrim is that the mere fact that objects are in memory and can be manipulated...gives us just that extra sense of belonging because it behaves in the way we would think in real life. If you see something, its not a static set piece glued down. It can be touched.

Anyway.

I'm clearly obsessed with immersion from this really specific way. Not everyone has to agree with me or think its right. I just thought I would share a game design idea I think about a lot.

 

[Sardukhar]

Another example from an animation point of view is sheathing. Drawing a weapon... Smoking a cig. Drinking something. Eating something. Emoting. These things give us control over our character. The reason I brought up Skyrim is that the mere fact that objects are in memory and can be manipulated...gives us just that extra sense of belonging because it behaves in the way we would think in real life. If you see something, its not a static set piece glued down. It can be touched.

Anyway.

I'm clearly obsessed with immersion from this really specific way. Not everyone has to agree with me or think its right. I just thought I would share a game design idea I think about a lot.

Oh, yeah, that's clearer. You mean a sense of connectedness with your world through the objects you interact with.

 

[Suhiira]

As an old EQ player myself I spent 48 hours camping J-Boots before they were moved to the Oasis (don't recall where they were but it was someplace in Najena as I recall). They were by far my most prized possession.

So I know exactly what he means. That's one thing most "modern" games lack. In Fallout 1 and 2 getting a set of Power Armor was an accomplishment ... in Fallout 4 they give it away 20 minutes into the game. While I never played the original Doom even I know about the legendary BFG. Not every item needs to be of "legendary" status but having something in a game you have to work for, something that's worth the effort because it's special, does wonders for a game and a players sense of accomplishment.

 

[Snowflakez]

Hey guys. Glad this topic got some movement. Just to clear some stuff up here. I don't mean to try to define what you own or how you own it, but what I mean is to make a point about virtual objects that feel like you earned them or their yours because of how you can customize them. For example. When I first played everquest, one of the first big pieces of loot I got was this thing called an executioners axe. I didn't know anything about it but a guy I was grouping with was telling me all the warriors around my level are trying to get them. I found out where it was that I needed to go, and then I got myself onto a team. I went through this ominous insane dungeon to make my way to the named mob called The Executioner. There he was holding that damn weapon. I could taste it. After a seemingly long time, I was able to secure it.

I have "owned" many weapons in games. Many of them are just the next good thing with good stats that I use until I get the next good thing. Or maybe they are some piece of gear I earned some points by grinding some stupid dungeon over and over and then got a tiered item. The reason in my opinion why people get tired of this game design is that it lacks the progression of getting something - even to mirror from real life. Think about it. What gives value to that machine you have sitting next to you with your Nvidia GTX 1080ti? Maybe you got it by saving all your summer job money. Or maybe your parents are wealthy and you just had to ask for it. Either way, you have a feeling of ownership over it. There is a sense of pride in it. There is a story to how you got it. And there is a progression to you finding out you wanted it, then figuring out how to get it, to then getting it and installing it...and finally using it and "owning" it...You can go around saying OH, yea I can talk about video cards because I have video card XXX...Let me compare it to your video card and tell you all the stuff....

Does that make sense? I am talking about owning in the sense that the item represents more than just stats and some cool looking thing. You want to have things like vehicles or houses or avatars with LOTS of customization because options let users make unique setups, which really help convince you the virtual world can be touched and manipulated. Then bringing in challenges to acquire something that weave in story or some extra twist make you feel ownership over that thing.

Sword of XXX in The Witcher 3 didn't feel like anything special. The stats were different and the hilt changed, but did I have an investment into that item in a deeper and more meaningful way? I don't know. I didn't feel like that. Don't get me wrong, I think The Witcher 3 is one of the finest RPG's ever made. I just would love to see a game world that can be touched.

Another example from an animation point of view is sheathing. Drawing a weapon... Smoking a cig. Drinking something. Eating something. Emoting. These things give us control over our character. The reason I brought up Skyrim is that the mere fact that objects are in memory and can be manipulated...gives us just that extra sense of belonging because it behaves in the way we would think in real life. If you see something, its not a static set piece glued down. It can be touched.

Anyway.

I'm clearly obsessed with immersion from this really specific way. Not everyone has to agree with me or think its right. I just thought I would share a game design idea I think about a lot.

Wow, well said! Completely agree, and thanks for coming back to clarify your points. I'm completely on board with as much immersion as possible - it's actually the #1 reason I loved Skyrim and Oblivion so much. No, they weren't great RPGs, but they were great games because I could suspend my disbelief and pretend I was in them. Mods helped, of course, but even the games in their release state were fantastic for that.

Sitting down, picking up a cabbage and tossing it , entering buildings and seeing the door creak open slightly... All stuff that adds to immersion in a major way.

Why do you think it is that some of the most popular mods for games are animation mods that add stuff like eating, drinking, sleeping animations? These don't necessarily have to be in the game (They'll surely annoy some people) but they do very little harm if they are optional.

 

[Plaxeko]

As an old EQ player myself I spent 48 hours camping J-Boots before they were moved to the Oasis (don't recall where they were but it was someplace in Najena as I recall). They were by far my most prized possession.

Haha. Yes! So I got my JBoots out of sheer luck. The mob I needed for the ring of the ancients had popped and a friend came to help. Ask any EQ player. And they have some story about some piece of gear they got back in the day. This isn't bc it was the first rpg with items. It was that they were able to have a story behind the item itself. Items weren't just upgrades you did by grinding. They were the thing. You could get that thing in one go. Or you had to work your butt off to find a way to get your hands on it.

That was my point about the video card example. The video card is the thing. It wasn't just some upgrade. I feel like RPG's today have turned items into the way it feels when you get a new weapon in a shooter. It's cool at first, but then it becomes a part of your arsenal. There wasn't necessarily a reason you got that item. You found it in a hidden room...or after a boss...It meant very little and you definitely feel no ownership over that item.

One of the magical things about EQ (which I'm really not making this an EQ stroking session but for example) was everyone. EVERYONE. felt like they really OWNED their character. Their character had so many item slots, and everyone ended up being so unique, that you could tell who someone was just by their gear over time. The gear meant more than just phat lewts and stats. It had weight behind it and you really did feel like you Owned it.

Just something to think about and I for one think this is an important game design element that people forgot. The MMO's that came after it slowly devolved into tier item grinding. Meh. Might as well just have been a gun you found around the corner. I don't remember many individual items of the vast amounts of games I've played. But I will always remember a series of pieces of gear from EQ because it was able to do this very thing.

 

[Suhiira]

While character visual customization is vital in an MMO (let's face it, in EQ all the characters looked exactly the same, it was only their gear that made them different) it's also a big factor in RPGs in general. Making YOUR character, unless it's a fixed protagonist like Geralt, adds greatly to the immersion. The problem is, in almost all cases each set of gear has it's own visuals and it's not uncommon for a player to like the way say a set of armor looks only to be forced to discard it because another set, who's appearance they're not not so fond of is measurably better.

It would be nice to have a feature that allows you to swap the visuals of any two items. I've seen this in some games and love it.