Agree to disagree then. MMORPG are nothing like pen and paper rpgs where everything is imaginary. Solid system is fundamental for good mmo. You see, i actually wasted 6 years of my life for one mmo and every single change in mechanics was really and i mean REALY big deal. Simple change in one skill could make it overpowered and therefore broke game for others. etc.. etc.. Also if you really like roleplaying, i recommend playing old infinity engine rpg's multiplayer with friends.
Important, yes. Not less than settings 
I think good MMORPG needs a sufficient level in both be conductive for roleplaying. Otherwise it'll be either hack'n'slash (if settings are poor), or pure dialogs without action (if system is broken).
I think good MMORPG needs a sufficient level in both be conductive for roleplaying. Otherwise it'll be either hack'n'slash (if settings are poor), or pure dialogs without action (if system is broken).Gilrond said:
That's exactly the point where everything has gone south in recent years. And Sirnaq is the living proof of it (no offence meant!). In early years of MMORPGs, it was a lot more about the roleplaying part. Ultima Online had people who opened their own shops, made a living being a blacksmith and were glad to do so. DaoC put so much emphasis on the factions and PvP that you were actually fighting for the success of your realm and felt as part of something greater. Surely, there (mostly) were incentives to do so, but that wasn't what people enjoyed about it. Along came WoW, started out as an MMORPG with incredible amount of comfort and usability - but evolved into a vicious cycle of challenge and reward, thus making the hunt for equipment the central gameplay element, becoming ever and ever more streamlined and finally created the genre MMO(without RPG).
Today, people think about that when they hear the term MMO or MMORPG. That's what they want, that's what they get. No one's really interested in simulating and populating a complex world - sort of a sandbox for a Pen&Paper RPG in HUGE scale, something I'd deem truly awesome. And that's sad - no one wants to be a blacksmith or travelling merchant; no one even wants to be a hero - everything that counts is having the highest itemlevel of all. Setting doesn't matter, lore doesn't matter, a story doesn't matter.
On a sidenote: Similar, egocentric tendencies show in other genres, specifically in multiplayer shooters. Ages ago you played for the fun, to bring victory to your team. Then K/D ratio was introduced and scratched that shining glory. Then unlocks were introduced and having a high personal score was important to get those. And by now we're at a point where every other minute some shiny popup appears, telling you how awesome you are for doing this and that, and everyone's hunting for the highest score, the best overall K/D in the profile, the next unlock, ribbon, achievement, whatever - and hardly anyone cares for how your team fares (and if so, then only because that results in the higher score). It's just frustrating.
To prepare sandbox for pen and paper rpg, you don't need mmo in the first place. You dont need, economy, you dont need some griefers disturbing your party while roleplaying. Normal multiplayer rpgs are much better for roleplaying than massive online games with thousands of users. MMOS are for gvg and to prove who is better at game "x".
Well, roleplayers usually refer to those who pursue such kind of goals as powerlevelers Also, unrealistic, super perfect characters are referred as "Mary Sue". I.e. those who value roleplay value some realism and authenticity of the character's story. Fortunately not all MMORPGs are like WoW in this regard even now.
Economy is good to have, as well as crafting, harvesting and so on. They are conductive for good RPG, and I agree that when those are broken, it's frustrating.
Also, unrealistic, super perfect characters are referred as "Mary Sue". I.e. those who value roleplay value some realism and authenticity of the character's story. Fortunately not all MMORPGs are like WoW in this regard even now.Economy is good to have, as well as crafting, harvesting and so on. They are conductive for good RPG, and I agree that when those are broken, it's frustrating.
Yeah, and usually "roleplayers" are destroyed on pvp by "powerlvlers" Yet "powerlvlers" still have fun dueling with other powerful players, especially when fighting party vs party or guild vs guild, using different skills to support each others and have tons of fun in process. Meanwhile "roleplayers" are sitting in center of main town chatting or flirting with each other, sometime they find party that are looking for random people not caring about broken builds. Don't worry, i was roleplayer once. I was playing only with my 3 friends irl for month. Then i figured out that game can be so much more fun when actually you play with other people without useless build.Gilrond said:Well, roleplayers usually refer to those who pursue such kind of goals as powerlevelers
Economy is good to have, as well as crafting, harvesting and so on. They are conductive for good RPG, and I agree that when those are broken, it's frustrating.
In my experience, good roleplayers can have good enough skills as well. Roleplaying is not all about dialogs. When crafting / training / fighting is performed "in character" - it's still roleplaying. In duels/PVPs if some party is unnaturally stronger because of powerleveling, it's usually balanced for the benefit of realism (i.e. agreed terms like using weaker armor and etc.). Otherwise of course it creates imbalance.
That's because you choose MMORPGs where powerleveling is "normal", while I try to avoid such
Sirnaq said:
It's about scale! I don't want one party of players to be thrown into a pre-made AI controlled world. I want the players to BE the world. Players are soldiers, merchants, craftsmen, thieves, highwaymen, diplomats, mercenaries, musicians, workers, etc. You'd have to give that a solid foundation of lore, rules and AI controlled stuff (to what extent has to be determined), but the world is living through the players - they aren't interacting with it, they are the very core element of it.
It's very different from your understanding of MMORPGs and to be honest it grieves me to see just how much MMORPGs are bound to those mediocre mechanics of skills, builds, raids, stats and gear progression on peoples' minds. When it comes to RPGs, mechanics are just a substitute for the PCs inability to simulate complexity (same goes for PnP by the way).
Aaden said:
You probably would like to check fallout online: http://fonline.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Online_Wiki
Word of warning, game is extremely hard. AKA Every player is roleplaying as raider douchebag that kills you for few caps. You die- every item you got on you is gone. Next time please, don't tell me what's mine understanding of anything. I know what you mean, and there is a reason why mmoRPG are not as successful as MMOrpg.
If they made an MMO, then that's all they'd be doing. No new IP's, no sequels to CyberPunk or The Witcher. MMO's take extraordinary resources to develop, and I'd see that as a complete waste of talent. Besides, we'll be lucky to get half as many single player RPG's ten yrs from. MMO's and multiplayer are the cash cows of the market but they don't interest me.
Sirnaq said:
Aaaaand we're back to my very first post. It's utopia. In the case of Fallout Online, as you tell it, the reason is that there's no way to get rid of scumbag players (or maybe, that's not why it's in that state, but it's because at some point things ran out of balance - then that's where the AI control I mentioned above should kick in). There's just so many reasons why such a project is nearly impossible to create and to make it work properly.
Still, the closer a game gets to being mmoRPG (to keep your nice idea of terminology), the more I'm potentially interested. After years of MMOrpg, I'm fed up with always-the-same-mechanics - I stopped enjoying them a long time ago, and instead I want to experience an amazing, interesting world. And I assume that's pretty much what OP was aiming for: a as-complete-as-possible world simulation, mostly inhabited by player characters.
Sorry for the 'understanding' thing. I didn't mean to presume anything. Your argumentation focussing so much on the game mechanics and your characterization of MMOs through those mechanics, gave me the impression that you didn't know it another way - not that you actually prefer it that way due to your experiences. My apologies.
Can PC gamers stop giving MMOs credit and hype that they do not deserve PLEASE?
Consoles have a major part as to why single player games suck more and more each year but MMOs have a big fat chunk of responsibility for this issue as well.
After this rant I can answer the OP question now: "NO! And I don't ever want CD Projekt to even consider touching anything having to do with MMOs, thank you very much."
Consoles have a major part as to why single player games suck more and more each year but MMOs have a big fat chunk of responsibility for this issue as well.
After this rant I can answer the OP question now: "NO! And I don't ever want CD Projekt to even consider touching anything having to do with MMOs, thank you very much."
