Best of 3 Gamemode for Gwent

[PeteTheN00b]

Best of 3 Gamemode for Gwent

After watching some of the gwent tournament matches, and noticing how bland our current gamemodes are I couldn't help but wonder about whether or not we should have a similar gamemode to the one used in tournaments. It would be interesting to have a best of 3 gamemode which had its own ladder, separate to the one we're currently using. Here are my ideas for how it would work:
-Players must reach level 15 to unlock tournament ladder. (This is so that players have a bit more experience with the game before they try to enter this, as the mode may be frustrating for new players due to the longer matches, and need to create and learn 3 different decks).
-Rewards for the gamemode are slightly larger than the ones for regular ranked ladder. (This is to make up for the longer matches, as a minimum of 2 games would be the duration of one best of 3 match. However it shouldn't be significantly higher because players shouldn't be forced to play this gamemode, it should only exist for those who are interested in it.)
-At the start of the game players will be shown who will go first in each of the 3 matches. (The first player goes first in the first match, second goes first in the second match, first goes first again in the third match. This doesn't solve the coin toss problem, but allows players to be aware of whether or not they'll be able to play a match out reactively or proactively.)
-Players must queue with 3 different decks, each from a different faction.
-At the start of the game both players can see the factions which their opponent will be playing (not their decks or leaders, only their factions) and may ban one of the decks. (If a player doesn't choose a random deck of their opponent will be banned.)
-Both players will select one of their 2 remaining decks and proceed to play a regular gwent match against eachother. (Players aren't shown which deck their opponent has picked until the match has started).
-If a player wins a game they aren't allowed to play the deck which they have won with anymore.
-If a draw occurs it is considered as though both players won their game. (This is to prevent best of 3 match lengths from going out of hand.)
-Once a player has won with every deck except the banned one they are considered the winner of the best of 3. If this occurs for both players at the same time the game ends in a draw.

The entire point of this gamemode is to create a playable gamemode with a more diverse meta. If their is one really oppressive deck which people get sick and tired of for several months (such as dwarves in midwinter, and spies before that), then players have the option to ban that matchup and see what other decks people have come up with. It also allows people to try more interesting archetypes which get countered by a particular faction (such as skellige resurrection against nilfgaard), because you can ban that faction and play the deck in the way it was meant to be played. This also allows players to come up with certain strategies, for example if most players begin to run consume you can run tech cards in all 3 of your decks so that they are more powerful against consume (sweers, scorch, geralt: igni, coral, cyprian wiley) and ban the deck which isn't a monster deck. All of these things allow for players to try more interesting and different strategies which would hopefully result in the creation of a gamemode with a changing meta (particularly because of counter strategies), and interesting archetypes you couldn't see in the regular ladder.

 

[4RM3D]

The entire point of this gamemode is to create a playable gamemode with a more diverse meta.

If you only want to promote more diversity on the ladder, then a Round Robin Mode would be easier to implement, more flexible, faster and, most important of all, more diverse. The 'best of X' is best suited for tournaments. If you implement it on the ladder, then it will have several issues:

- The coin flip becomes even more of a problem.
- You'll be playing against the same opponent, which isn't always preferable.
- You usually want to play the strongest deck first, decreasing the variation.

On the plus side, you do have to think a bit more on which deck you want to play during the red coin, which is why Henselt is such a popular choice for this.

If their is one really oppressive deck which people get sick and tired of for several months [...]

Then it should be dealt with at the root of the problem, rather than just fencing off the tree. The new game mode is not mutually exclusive to the solution to this problem. So, we shouldn't assume this as the opening argument to introduce such a game mode in the first place.

 

[PeteTheN00b]

I read your round robin mode post and think that it is interesting, however in my opinion that sounds a lot more like an alternate way in which pro ladder could be designed rather than a completely separate gamemode. It seems easier to implement but at the same time rotating factions every game is something which isn't always preferred, which is why pro ladder allows you to play the factions whenever you want, it simply forces you to play them at some point in order to gain your mmr which I think is more preferable to being locked out of a faction you want to experiment with for 4 games after playing it.

Originally posted by PeteTheN00b View Post The entire point of this gamemode is to create a playable gamemode with a more diverse meta. If you only want to promote more diversity on the ladder, then a Round Robin Mode would be easier to implement, more flexible, faster and, most important of all, more diverse. The 'best of X' is best suited for tournaments. If you implement it on the ladder, then it will have several issues:
- The coin flip becomes even more of a problem. - You'll be playing against the same opponent, which isn't always preferable. - You usually want to play the strongest deck first, decreasing the variation.

1) I agree that the mode would be more difficult to implement, and at the moment cdpr does have enough on their hands with the presumed draft mode, thronebreaker expansion, new card release, and need to improve balancing and bugfixing on their hands however this is more so a suggestion for the future than anything else.
2) I'm not sure if I agree about the coinflip becoming more of a problem because at the very least you would know which coin you'll be playing on before the match starts, which gives you information so that you don't queue up with a reactive deck or combo deck if you know you'll be forced to go first. I understand that seeing two blue coins is frustrating, however I don't think it is as bad as not knowing what coin you'll be playing on and then seeing the blue coin with a deck which struggles to play first.
3) I'm not sure what you mean by playing against the same opponent not being preferable (other than roping and emote spamming) because they will be forced to play multiple decks as well.
4) Perhaps that is true, however it doesn't change the fact that by having access to multiple decks players will play more varied matchups as at least one player will always be forced into playing a different deck for the following match.

Originally posted by PeteTheN00b View Post If their is one really oppressive deck which people get sick and tired of for several months [...] Then it should be dealt with at the root of the problem, rather than just fencing off the tree. The new game mode is not mutually exclusive to the solution to this problem. So, we shouldn't assume this as the opening argument to introduce such a game mode in the first place.

I probably should've chosen a better introduction to the argument, I have to agree with that. But at the same time we are seeing that the roots of the problems are taking a long time to being solved, so I do still support the fact that we need multiple gamemodes in order to promote variety in the meta in times during which cdpr refuses to balance the game. Since we are seeing that cdpr is biting off more than they can handle with 100 card expansions, balancing, bugfixing, seasonal events, tournaments and thronebreaker all being dealt with at the same time. I think that if we have to expect this to occur more frequently we will need more gamemodes, and perhaps draft will be enough to take care of this, however I still think that having multiple gamemodes can only help the game during tough times.

Also thinks for your feedback, I hope I'm not coming off as rude because I enjoy hearing your constructive criticism of this idea as it helps me make the concepts I'm trying to suggest more polished.

 

[4RM3D]

I read your round robin mode post and think that it is interesting, however in my opinion that sounds a lot more like an alternate way in which pro ladder could be designed rather than a completely separate gamemode.

Because of the similarity with the current pro-ladder, it's indeed a possibility to be replaced by round robin, rather than have them coexist together.

I understand that seeing two blue coins is frustrating, however I don't think it is as bad as not knowing what coin you'll be playing on and then seeing the blue coin with a deck which struggles to play first.

The Henselt Red Coin Advantage (let's call it that) doesn't outweigh the negative impact of having to go first twice on average.

I'm not sure what you mean by playing against the same opponent not being preferable (other than roping and emote spamming) because they will be forced to play multiple decks as well.

First of all, while you create more variety in decks, you create less variety in opponents (i.e. play style). But more importantly, it aggravates the 'Wild Card' players. This deserves a topic of its own, so just let me give one simple example. You have to invest more time into a match in order to win, without having a "save point" in between. It's all or nothing. This means that when you lose a 'best of X' it feels more painful then when you would have lost a normal match, especially when it was determined by RNG (coin flip), having an unfair opponent (match making issue) or more annoying deck (rock paper scissors).

I hope I'm not coming off as rude because I enjoy hearing your constructive criticism of this idea as it helps me make the concepts I'm trying to suggest more polished.

No problem.

 

[PeteTheN00b]

I'm not sure what you mean by playing against the same opponent not being preferable (other than roping and emote spamming) because they will be forced to play multiple decks as well. First of all, while you create more variety in decks, you create less variety in opponents (i.e. play style). But more importantly, it aggravates the 'Wild Card' players. This deserves a topic of its own, so just let me give one simple example. You have to invest more time into a match in order to win, without having a "save point" in between. It's all or nothing. This means that when you lose a 'best of X' it feels more painful then when you would have lost a normal match, especially when it was determined by RNG (coin flip), having an unfair opponent (match making issue) or more annoying deck (rock paper scissors).

I guess you're right about that. That's quite a significant flaw of the format, which on its own is a pretty good reason to look for other gamemodes to introduce. Perhaps it would be better to argue for more frequent open tournaments in gwent rather than a best of 3 in game format in that case, because I often wish I could participate in a gwent tournament because of the decks which are created and unusual strategies you see being used. The problem with these long matches could be slightly solved by giving players larger rewards based on rounds won (similarly to how prize pools are split based on how many of the 5 games are won), but I agree that the coin flip problem and problem of running into binary decks which happen to beat you because their decks counter everything that you do are too large for this gamemode to exist.
It would be nice however if we could see more frequent and more easily accessible tournaments to occur, even if they are unofficial and don't receive the high quality hosting and publicity which other gwent tournaments have. Maybe their could eventually be a weekly online tournament which players queue for, which is simply livestreamed by gwent and rewards players with in game content (for example 1st place: 5 premium kegs, choice between 3 premium legendaries, second place: 4 premium kegs, choice between 3 premium epics), since cdpr can't finance massive weekly prize pools. Obviously this would take a long time to implement because the tournament format would have to be optimized, and specific rules would have to be set in place for players which disconnect, and a spectator function would have to exist in game, but it would be nice if this could be put on cdpr's Todo list so that we eventually gain a frequent mini tournament every weekend or so, and perhaps even give crown points (I'm not sure if this was the name of the pro ladder points or not) to players who achieve first place which could give more players the opportunity to enter the small competitive scene of gwent.

TLDR: Perhaps a best of 3 gamemode isn't the solution, but rather unofficial online mini-tournaments which give in game rewards.