CDPR about languages in the game

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator Implant)

Dragonbird - A very good argument.

When such technology in the real world, so close to perfection that it can use in everyday life, it probably will regression in the spread of the English language. People always choose the easier solution. Something that I referred to as - the civilization laziness. It is a phenomenon that is going on since time immemorial and is now quite common. People drop out of the knowledge and skills if it can be replaced by technology. This is the main reason why the human race is getting dumber.

Google Translator, which I just use it, is a pretty good example. Of course, Google Translator is very imperfect, but we're talking about the future and the likely development of this technology.

It is very plausible that the shift away from learning foreign languages ​​will become a common occurrence. Of course, if this technology will be.

However, the introduction of such a solution in the game poses a number of problems in terms of storyline, especially for non-English speaking players. I write about these issues in the Polish forum.

But I think it's a very cool idea. However, it will be hard to make.

 

[Sydanyo]

Truth is there are certain countries in the world, where the culture stops the adoption of English, the learning of English. It's got nothing to do with Google Translate, or anything else like that. It's ingrained in the society.

If there was a "babelfish", then obviously those countries would never ever adopt the "universal language" (being English, or Panglish), but then again, we would all understand each other.

As it stands now, there are certain countries set in their ways and in the hatred of English, where speaking English is really a rarity.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator Implant)

C. MacLeod - Even you do not learn English, if you had the implant since childhood, which translates into a language that is commonly used in your environment.

And besides, you sound like (I will not say who) - "Let's create a world in uniforms"

 

[Sydanyo]

(Google Translator Implant)

C. MacLeod - Even you do not learn English, if you had the implant since childhood, which translates into a language that is commonly used in your environment.

And besides, you sound like (I will not say who) - "Let's create a world in uniforms"

I never said anything about forgetting about your own language(s). I'm Finnish myself. I'm proud to know Finnish, but I'm also proud to know English.

That's the point. Speak your own language proficiently and pass it on to your children, but also speak English, the world language.

That's neither here nor there though. I guess we should keep to the thread subject.

 

[dragonbird]

Like translation a future wonder indeed! Translate of Google provide already wonders and allow enlightenment linguistic for us, so future like creation will be masterful to eradicate difficult walls.

A question: how many translations did that take, and via which intermediate languages?

...though better than one might expect aside from it absolutely refusing to translate profanity.)

That's because you invent your own profanity instead of using the perfectly good examples that already exist in this world. I'm still disappointed about the examples you came up with the last time I asked you for a Word of the Week.

(Google Translator Implant)

When such technology in the real world, so close to perfection that it can use in everyday life, it probably will regression in the spread of the English language. People always choose the easier solution. Something that I referred to as - the civilization laziness. It is a phenomenon that is going on since time immemorial and is now quite common. People drop out of the knowledge and skills if it can be replaced by technology. This is the main reason why the human race is getting dumber.

Not sure that I'd agree about the human race getting dumber, but definitely that we have a heavy reliance on such tools. When I was writing that post, I was thinking about the fact that when I go out for lunch every week, it's apparently impossible to calculate (total bill + tip)/(number of people) without whipping out your phone and turning on the calculator.

However, the introduction of such a solution in the game poses a number of problems in terms of storyline, especially for non-English speaking players. I write about these issues in the Polish forum.

But I think it's a very cool idea. However, it will be hard to make.

As I know you're a heavy user of Google Translate, I'd be interested to know what those concerns are.

The one thing that I hope they do is separate this out from the normal subtitling. I'm hoping/assuming that they have considered that. We are, apparently, looking at a situation where there are two categories of voiced conversation - the PC and main characters, who will speak one of several languages that CDPR consider necessary (English, Polish, German, and so on), and the secondary characters who will speak their own languages regardless of game localisation. We also, I think, need the same separation in subtitling - the localisation subtitles for players in countries where there's no voiced version (and for those players who just want subtitles), and the "translator" subtitles for the implant.

Truth is there are certain countries in the world, where the culture stops the adoption of English, the learning of English. It's got nothing to do with Google Translate, or anything else like that. It's ingrained in the society.

I've lived for over 20 years in countries where English was a second language. In both of the countries concerned, there's been a move away from treating English as the de-facto language of business during that time, even though at the school level, there's been an increase in the amount and quality of English taught. I can also think instantly of at least one country where, as you mention, there's always been a strong cultural bias towards not learning any foreign languages (including English).

So yes, I think you're right. But I think that if the translator did exist, the second language learned would no longer necessarily be English, as one of the main reasons why it's English now is because, for a multitude of reasons, it's become the universal language.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator Implant)

Not sure that I'd agree about the human race getting dumber..

It's not my theory, but scientists.

I'd be interested to know what those concerns are.

These are my concerns about the language of the protagonist. The main characters that we play.

There is no problem from the point of view of an English player.
Main character in the game is likely to be a resident of the city, he will know English.
If the implant is to replace the dubbing, it is to be meaningful, such a solution must work from the beginning.
However, most residents of the city will be English.
How to justify such a thing - the need to translate from English to the main character, which - by implication - comes from this city?

I describe such solutions on the Polish forum, but these solutions very complicated story, which will be very time-consuming for RED team. Or will the opposite effect - will force massive generalization in the story.

So if the main character will have a nationality that is appropriate for the player, it will use what language is this character? Is English? So the protagonist will have to explain his own speech? Is he going to have an implant just to translate himself from English to Polish? That would be stupid. If he is English-speaking and he is talking with English-speaking characters, why did he translate his own speech?

In this case it will need to dub the main character. But now there is another problem. Is the language of the protagonist, would mock English language? Just as in a traditional dubbing?

That would be inconsistent.
example:
- The main character speaks Polish, but the other characters in the game, consider this language as English ..
For then there would be no consequences. Because the whole idea is to rely on the fact that every language play the role himself. So the English are English, Spanish is Spanish, and Polish is Polish.

To be the consequence - Polish language of the protagonist has to be a Polish for other characters in the game.

And that would mean that more than 90% of the characters in the game that did not understand the language of the main character played by the Foreign Language player.

Polish is just an example. This would all languages ​​other than English.

 

[Sardukhar]

(Google Translator Implant)



It's not my theory, but scientists.

I just had to chime in ad say, "Favourite Quote of the Week"! I may go around adding, "but scientists" to everything I say, to everyone I say it. But scientists.

It works so well, but scientists!

 

[dragonbird]

(Google Translator Implant)

These are my concerns about the language of the protagonist. The main characters that we play.

OK. That does sound similar to the point I raised, and I agree that it could be a concern. I think they have to deal with it in the same way as I described, by ignoring the reality of where Night City exists and simply use the appropriate localised language for the player, i.e. traditional dubbing. If someone in (say) Poland watches a Hollywood movie that's been dubbed in Polish, they're familiar enough with the process to know that the setting is still America, and that the character is really speaking English, and they don't have a problem with it. The same would apply with the game. To a Polish player, the primary characters would speak Polish, the translator would translate minor character dialogue from whatever it is to Polish.

If the minor characters speak, for example, English, Polish, and Spanish, someone playing in English would need to use the translator for the Polish and Spanish dialogue, someone playing in Polish would need to use it for English and Spanish. As long as there are enough languages represented, the gaming experience would be similar for both players.

The only problem arises when the player is multilingual and can therefore understand languages that the character isn't supposed to be able to understand. This may change the game experience for some players, and may mean that the translator has to be no more than just that - a translator. Forget about using it to introduce twists by having mistranslations

Direct Witcher 2 comparison: The segment in the Kaedwaeni Camp where you can interrogate the Elf captive. You and I both hear exactly the same thing here, even though you play the Polish version of the game, and I play the English version. Now extend that by saying that Geralt can't have that conversation unless he's acquired a skill that allows him to understand High Elvish. No skill=no conversation=no clue. Now extend it again to apply it to ALL conversations with elves in the game, except maybe Iorveth, who's a primary character and therefore speaks your language. So you can't get the Succubus quest unless you have the skill.

I think that's what they're trying to achieve here.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator Implants)

Sardukhar

..., but the theory of scientists.
Better?

Or maybe you mean that I refer to scientists, as a typical catch-all argument?
Oh well. I've heard this more than once. I do not remember where, so I do not give a source. Sorry.

Well, these are the charms of the implants.

Dragonbird

It is very difficult to write using Google Translator. I can not just write in Polish. I have to properly arrange the words in a sentence to the effect was tolerable. Since I do not speak English, I can not be sure whether the effect is quite good.

Perhaps the translation is totally screwed up.

On the Polish forum I write a lot about it, and it's hard to describe the nuances of the problem and solutions, and above all to describe the differences in the perception of the game with the usual translation, and games in which it is carried out the idea of ​​implants.

 

[dragonbird]

(Google Translator Implants)

Sardukhar

..., but the theory of scientists.
Better?

Or maybe you mean that I refer to scientists, as a typical catch-all argument?
Oh well. I've heard this more than once. I do not remember where, so I do not give a source. Sorry.

Well, these are the charms of the implants.

Ignore Sardukhar, he just likes wandering into threads and inserting irrelevant comments.

 

[Sardukhar]

But scientists!

 

[227]

It's not my theory, but scientists.

If you're referring to what I think you are, I seem to remember them finding that people weren't necessarily becoming dumber, but that they had formed a kind of symbiotic relationship with technology that kept them from retaining certain bits of knowledge that could easily be looked up. It manifests in ways that make people look dumber, though.

At least, that's how I remember reading it. I refuse to look it up for fear of becoming supporting evidence.

 

[dragonbird]

(Google Translator Implants)
Dragonbird

It is very difficult to write using Google Translator. I can not just write in Polish. I have to properly arrange the words in a sentence to the effect was tolerable. Since I do not speak English, I can not be sure whether the effect is quite good.

Perhaps the translation is totally screwed up.

On the Polish forum I write a lot about it, and it's hard to describe the nuances of the problem and solutions, and above all to describe the differences in the perception of the game with the usual translation, and games in which it is carried out the idea of ​​implants.

It usually comes through OK in English - some grammatical errors, but easy enough to understand.

OK. How I picture it.

I play in English. You play in Polish.

I hear my own character, and the important characters in the game, speak in English. I accept that without really thinking about it because I know my character is an English-speaker.

You hear your own character, and the important characters in the game, speak in Polish. You accept that because you're used to hearing dubbed conversation in movies, TV, games. You know that he's a native English speaker, but it doesn't matter.

We're both in some mission that involves getting information from someone who is classified in the game as a minor character, and who only speaks Polish. I need to hit the "translate" key to find out what he's saying, which means I need to have the translator implant. You don't need to. This gives you a slight advantage, but as the next minor character you speak to may be defined as a German or English speaker, the advantage is minimal - you're still going to have to get that implant sometime.

I think that works as long as the game doesn't make a big issue out of translation. If the translator implant has been around for a long time, there's no reason to think of it as important - it's just a tool that everyone uses. So if you prefer to think of your character as a 2nd-generation Polish immigrant who, because of the implant, has never considered it necessary to learn English, that would work too. There could easily be justification in thinking that, despite being physically in America, Night City is NOT a city where English is the primary language.

 

[netra]

At least, that's how I remember reading it. I refuse to look it up for fear of becoming supporting evidence.

*chuckle* good one.

 

[ad1066]

I have to say I'm really liking this idea from a UI/Gameplay standpoint, but I would hope that the devs are not onverlooking another possible option, which is characters actually learning other languages. I'd like to have a character that, while speaking English natively, also picked up a little Spanish, German, Japanese, etc on the side.

And tying the translated dialogue to the skill level of the implant is genius.

-- Ben

 

[darcler]

I have to say I'm really liking this idea from a UI/Gameplay standpoint, but I would hope that the devs are not onverlooking another possible option, which is characters actually learning other languages. I'd like to have a character that, while speaking English natively, also picked up a little Spanish, German, Japanese, etc on the side.

That actually got me thinking. It's a good observation, but I think that it'd be better if it would be you, the player, who can pick up this word or that phrase and somehow input it into the game. It would obviously need to be tied to the gameplay, i.e. I don't really see how we could use this in dialogues (too much text, too complex), and I don't know if there would be anywhere else where language would come into play, but let's say you'd be able to react (vocally) to what's happening around you, a pose-like gimmick from MMOs.

A rough scenario: you're strolling on the street, stumble upon a bunch of guys looking at you mistrustfully because you're a huge ugly badass (connects with the idea of NPCs reacting to your appearance, as I discussed elsewhere). You don't want trouble, and you can select an option to say something placating, but it turns out the guys are, I don't know, Japanese, and they don't speak English. They yell something at you, you yell at them, and brawl ensues. Now, you - the player - do some research on the Internets and find out that "calm down" would be "落ち着く", so you input it in the game, mapping the word with "soothe" option, and the game performs a quick check (simple string comparison on a small dictionary would suffice, I think), and it the word provided roughly matches what the game considers a soothing phrase, it allows it to work in a situation like described above, perhaps even earning you sympathy from the Japanese bunch.

Obviously there's tons of calming phrases in each language, especially indirect ones, so the possibilities would be limited. Then again, it'd be more believable for you to actually learn a single word that a flowery phrase that a refined gentleman would use. Plus, knowing the word doesn't necessarily mean knowing how to pronounce the word so that someone might actually understand it (like, try to pronounce "落ち着く").

It does have issues, but it also have cool possibilities.




Now that I think about it, the implant would let you kind of understand what people are saying, but it won't work the other way. At least not if you don't want to create some stupid-ass real-time talking shit that's so cliche it's downright embarrassing to even contemplate having it. Anyway, the usefulness of the implant in dialogues would (should!) be limited.

 

[dragonbird]

A rough scenario: you're strolling on the street, stumble upon a bunch of guys looking at you mistrustfully because you're a huge ugly badass (connects with the idea of NPCs reacting to your appearance, as I discussed elsewhere). You don't want trouble, and you can select an option to say something placating, but it turns out the guys are, I don't know, Japanese, and they don't speak English. They yell something at you, you yell at them, and brawl ensues. Now, you - the player - do some research on the Internets and find out that "calm down" would be "落ち着く", so you input it in the game, mapping the word with "soothe" option, and the game performs a quick check (simple string comparison on a small dictionary would suffice, I think), and it the word provided roughly matches what the game considers a soothing phrase, it allows it to work in a situation like described above, perhaps even earning you sympathy from the Japanese bunch.

The problem with this, and with ad1066's earlier suggestion, is that it pre-supposes that the player is English-speaking. Introducing language as a gameplay device brings in a massive amount of complexity when the game itself is available localised in multiple languages. The example you gave doesn't work if the player is Japanese, playing a localised Japanese version of the game.

 

[darcler]

That's true. But it's cool nonetheless

Someone somewhere on the Internet threw the idea that player, when creating his character, could choose which language(s) he speaks. Plus, the PC should, I think, always speak English, even as a second language. This could help a little bit with the complexity, but still there'd be a lot of work nonetheless. I'm aware of that.

 

[dragonbird]

Well, if you think it's cool, fine. Personally, I'd rather they used their resources for something other than this kind of complexity.

 

[ad1066]

The problem with this, and with ad1066's earlier suggestion, is that it pre-supposes that the player is English-speaking. Introducing language as a gameplay device brings in a massive amount of complexity when the game itself is available localised in multiple languages. The example you gave doesn't work if the player is Japanese, playing a localised Japanese version of the game.

From what I understand, this approach is being taken by the devs in lieu of localisation. All I suggested is that it take the possibility into account of the character naturally knowing whatever language is being spoken by the NPCs, and providing a level of translation (via subtitles) commensurate to the skill level, same as what they are supposedly planning for the skill chip implant.

-- Ben