Combat system

[metalmaniac21]

How many games actually let you save during combat? That's so incredibly rare (especially these days) that I can't help but think you played one of the first two Fallouts once upon a time and now assume that every turn-based and RTwP game in existence plays identically to that.

1.C'mon, you know what I'm talking about, savescumming is pretty much a meme in X-COM community and a viable (!) tactical choice in TAoD. We're talking about present time, not the 90s and not PNP, btw.
2. That's your preogrative, it is you clearly think that every single RTwP game plays similar to (even though this one has great combat)Pillars Of Eternity. (or Dragon Age: Origins, like your comrade next door) Or worse, relies on flashy effects and popamole. Such assumptions adds nothing to the conversation. The next quote actually substracts. You yourself.

No one is arguing for time limits, though. It only came up because of metalmaniac21's awkward English and clear lack of experience with how turn-based/RTwP games work.

Pretense to the tone - is last worst argument besides direct offense. Have a nice day.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Timelimits and limited turns are not problem solvers

No they aren't. I'm not even sure what's the problem that needs solving here. You said there's no time in TB, I said that's not true.

takes away all the adrenaline and surprise factor from a gameplay

That's not true either. The tension comes for different reasons than in a realtime scenario, but it's definitely there. That you have unlimited time to think about your move, doesn't mean that you are safe. On the contrary, in cases it underlines your lack of options and uncertainty to reaching safety or safe state. You necessarily think about the risks you are (probably) about to take and let it sink in more than in a relfex reaction scenario.

The nu-XCOM games have a pretty simplistic TB combat, but there's a lot of tension in the tougher fights (just for examples sake).

 

[metalmaniac21]

That's not true either. The tension comes for different reasons than in a realtime scenario, but it's definitely there. That you have unlimited time to think about your move, doesn't mean that you are safe. On the contrary, in cases it underlines your lack of options and uncertainty to reaching safety or safe state. You necessarily think about the risks you are (probably) about to take and let it sink in more than in a relfex reaction scenario.

The thing is, what you said is not exclusive feature of TB-head-bashing scenario, infact it works even in newer bethesda popamole simulator called Fallout 4 on survival(actually makes it less of a popamole, tbh), for example sake. A matter of balance and game mechanics, yo.
The fact that I have unlimited time to think does me NOTHING, as you should know from previous post. If you encounter a bandits next corner in AoD in Teron, you probably won't test your luck with your starter gear and stats, so you'll avoid the fight anyway.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

The thing is, what you said is not exclusive feature of TB

No it's not, and that's not the point. I said the tension comes for different reasons due to the flow and pacing of the core events.

If you encounter a bandits next corner in AoD in Teron, you probably won't test your luck with your starter gear and stats, so you'll avoid the fight anyway.

Sure. And then you'd have no fight in your hands to think about. But if you would, or when you would, the situation'd be different. You mentioned "strategy" earlier, skipping a fight because you don't believe in your chances is a strategic decision; if you would, however, enter the fight anyway, you'd enter the realm of tactics which is a different animal and where things get different from realtime combat (due to the mechanical setup).

The fact that I have unlimited time to think does me NOTHING

Sure. But it does for someone who might want to evaluate his situation and options further than at a glance; and in a TB situation, that's where the myriad of different systems and effects (that are usually lost in the action in realtime games) - that optimally are there to be evaluated and taken into account - come into the foreground.

It simply strives for different experience.

 

[metalmaniac21]

It simply strives for different experience.

TB & RT have different experience, I don't argue there... So?

Sure

Sure. But if myriads of tactical effects and system are lost in RT action, then something's wrong with game deisgn. Or what, moving and fighitng back enemies somehow ruins great strategies?
While there are some good TB games on the market, like Divinity: OS, I just see no problem realizing what that game has in RT. Telekinesis already was presented in the mainstream Bioshock, for example.

You mentioned "strategy" earlier, skipping a fight because you don't believe in your chances is a strategic decision; if you would, however, enter the fight anyway, you'd enter the realm of tactics which is a different animal and where things get different from realtime combat (due to the mechanical setup).

With naked head and a dagger in right hand? Not much, kiting & hit legs->hit hands for the sake of survival.

I get you don't like TB or get much out of it. That's fine with me, I don't feel a need to turn you around on that. But the way you come out, sounds that there are a number of misconceptions on the subject.

No, I just don't think Cyberpunk desperately needsTB mechanics, since half-making RT definitely won't make any glory, won't substract much fun, while half-assingTB will pretty much kill the game like it killed Fallout, for example.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

TB & RT have different experience, I don't argue there... So?

It sounded to me that you were putting them on the same line. They offer very different experiences and the tactics and strategies work differently. You have that sniper going to the vantage point for best visibility in both, but you need to take different gameplay elements into account while doing that.

But if myriads of tactical effects and system are lost in RT action, then something's wrong with game deisgn.

Namely the realtime component. It needs to be streamlined to be percieved as sensible and working because things flow on seamlessly (and often fast) and the player can not percive all that much info in a situation like that. In TB that's different for obvious reasons.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Namely the realtime component.

Namely the helpless AI, let's not dancing roundabout. Though helpless AI is not exclusive to RT...

It needs to be streamlined to be percieved as sensible and working because things flow on seamlessly (and often fast) and the player can not percive all that much info in a situation like that

Now it's need to be streamlined, and several pages ago RT was considered flashy popamole casualfest... Go figure.
It's needs to be designed flexible, where Fallout: Tactics and Arcanum also danced roundabout but eventually jumped into the bonfire and got rekt. Though F:T is more functional, tbh.

You have that sniper

Usually you don't need taking into account much details in both cases, including popamole, since sniper in not squad-based rpgs is a press X to win build anyway. Again, balance and game mechanics first.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Now it's need to be streamlined, and several pages ago RT was considered flashy popamole casualfest... Go figure.

You misunderstand. It is "popamole shit" because it needs to be streamlined.

 

[metalmaniac21]

You misunderstand. It is popamole shit because it needs to be streamlined.

Saying that RT is popamole in general is too much of a streamlining, what's that word was... Ah, misunderstanding.
I'm not sure if this thread is now RPG Codex subsidiary or legit discussion. It needs a streamlining.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Saying that RT is popamole in general is too much of a streamlining, what's that word was... Ah, misunderstanding.

No, I was responding to your specific quote, your misunderstanding of what I said. I was not saying RT "in general" is popamole in my opinion.

 

[metalmaniac21]

No, I was responding to your specific quote, your misunderstanding of what I said. I was not saying RT "in general" is popamole in my opinion.

No. it should be replaced by a better AI, then, that's it.
And don't jump away just yet, TB is also has such problems, like fights indoors becoming the very same popamole when one enemy standing in the doorway.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

No. it should be replaced by a better AI, then, that's it.

"No" what??

What should be "replaced by better AI" and what has that got to do with anything we've talked so far?

 

[metalmaniac21]

What should be "replaced by better AI" and what has that got to do with anything we've talked so far?

You're mentioned popamole, I showed you popamole. Talk about misunderstanding. Or have a nice day, that'll do.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Talk about misunderstanding.

Ok, I admit I've now lost the track of this discussion.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Ok, I admit I've now lost the track of this discussion.

alright, replace popamole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVIY5W2Zfw with better AI.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

alright, replace popamole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVIY5W2Zfw with better AI.

I got that one. But I don't see the relevance of that to what we discussed before "popamole" was mentioned (and only mentioned through a misinterpretation of a previous post).

On the sidenote of that video, though... Fallout 4 would only be marginally improved if it had better AI.

In any case. I suppose this thing has run its course for now.

 

[Suhiira]

In any case. I suppose this thing has run its course for now.

Good

At any rate ... apparently we have three opinions with solid support:
1] Make CP2077 a classic First Person Shooter
2] Make CP2077 with either a 1st or 3rd Person view and some sort of pause option
3] Make CP2077 with optional 1st and 3rd Person views, perhaps 1st Person is FPS, the 3rd Person is a system that uses character vice player skills and has a pause option

NO ONE (other then a couple trolls) is suggestion it be turn based ... unless ... and ONLY UNLESS ... it's a party based system rather then single character.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

NO ONE (other then a couple trolls) is suggestion it be turn based ... unless ... and ONLY UNLESS ... it's a party based system rather then single character.

Well I've been trying to push the idea that the "tactical mode" that CDPR has implied for CP2077 would be some form of TB analog (something similiar, something thereabouts, something mechanically resembling -- though NOT nu-Fallout VATS as it is there NOR conventional Max Payne bullet time slomo), so there's that, but otherwise... No it won't be primarily TB no matter how much I'd beg - I suppose - so I haven't and won't be suggesting that.

From the options you listed, #3 is the one I hope they would go for as closely and hard as possible (and I've made suggestions towards that direction).

 

[Sardukhar]

Oh, Dec. You so funny.

 

[PillarBiter]

My suggestion is that they come up with something totally new But definately not 1st person.I find that more immersion breaking than giving, actually.

I'm going to edit this, as I thought of something just as I posted. I really like the latest tomb raider gameplay. The movement, covering, scrambling, ... it was all very fluid. I hope they go in that direction, but none of that regenerating stuff. You get shot, you pay for it. This would make gunplay possible, but not plausible as the main solution to a problem.