Combining Story with Gameplay

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Combining Story with Gameplay

So I was just in bed when I started thinking about story telling in video games (man, I need to find some other interests). And I just know I won't get to sleep untill I go through some things

Something that bothers me is how so few single player, tripple A games try to tie in their gameplay with their story. I undersand It's hard to think of many meaningful ways to do so, I mean it's litteraly keeping me up at night. But I think it's very important to do so wherever possible if you take the story of your game at all seriously and I hope we see it in Cyberpunk. It's what seperates games from other forms of entertainment after all. I'm going to list as many examples/ideas as I can think of here but I'm sure other people can think of more.

This is a pretty simple one that already happens in most games. (Also, If your a fun over atmosphere kind of gamer you're probably going to disagree with a whole bunch of this): game mechanics that fit in with the world and/or playable character. This happens pretty much automaticly as you can imagine but you can always go a bit further. This would cover things like oils and potions in the Witcher. A mechanic that makes you feel like you're a monster hunter and at the same time adds an extra level of complexity to the combat. I'm not too worried about this as you already have different classes in Cyberpunk which from my (very limited) understanding have different abillities that distinguish them from each other. What I am worried about however is mechanics that are very "video gamey" and actually take away from the story. For me personally I dislike it when weapons or the pc have an arbitrary amount of damage that they deal untill they are upgraded or whatever. Or an enemy that you could slaughter in the last area all of a sudden becomes a bullet sponge because it's a higher level.

This one's still fairly common (especially in rpg's) but it's often superficial: The game world reacts to your play style. This in particular has got my excited about the new Deus Ex game. I'm not talking about your dialogue options or key desicions here, that should be standard in any rpg. I'm talking about the way you play the game. The most obvious way to do this is things like lethal/ non-lethal or Stealthy/ run n' gun/ negotiate. If you achieved your goal in the last mission by murdering everyone in a brutal fashon maybe you'll have a hard time convincing someone you're only looking for thier brother for a freindly chat but on the other hand you'll have the respect of those hardened thugs at that seedy bar. It's not just play style you can use, missions can have ways to be completed that you aren't even told about. A recent example is in Far Cry 4 when your told by the game to escape from the bad guy's house whilst he's off doing something else but if you just wait there for a while he'll comback and you get an alternative ending like 40 mins into the game. the player can be rewarded by thinking outside the box by getting better rewards.

I'm pretty sure I had other ideas but I must have forgotton them when I was writing about the others, plus it's 3:00am here so... yeah. Yup, I'm definitly missing something and it'll probably come back to me just as I'm going to sleep.

But anyway, what I'm basicly saying is interactivity is a video game's greatest srength and there's so much more it can be used for than different dialogue options. I have no doubt the guy's at CDPR are aware of all this and have a better understanding of what's currently possible than me but nevertheless I'd like to request that they keep needles gamey tropes to a minimum and try to use gameplay as a story telling tool rather than having it as a seperate thing or using it to break up all the cutscenes.
 

Kaebus2196

Guest
I'm 99.9% sure they'll surpass The Witcher 3 in every way. Go to sleep lol

Hoping for such a feat is reasonable, but they are probably experimenting with as many ideas as we are here on the forums. It's really going to be more of an acquired taste with some of their features being brand new to the gaming genre.
 
@xxTotexx Well they do have an exellent track record of improving on past titles so I'm not worried about this being worse than Witcher 3. But there's no harm in talking about things we'd like to see and for me this is something that could take it from game of the year (which I've kind of come to expect from a CDPR game) to game of the decade. People who play alot of videogames are always talking about innovation and this is one area where I would like to see it happen.

It's really hard for me to articulate what exactly it is that I want to see but if you've ever played "brothers: a tale of two sons" then you can get the idea. Totalbiscuit (pc games critic) always brings that game up when talking about stories in games and whilst I don't necesseraly agree that it's the best game of all time, it's a superb example of how a game can tell a story through gamplay. Witcher 3 had some good atempts at it, monster hunting quests made you feel like a Witcher for example. But there were some features that broke immersion such as when you have to hit a bandit 20 times with a sword to kill him because he's a higher level than you. It comes down to personal taste but (depending on the game) I'm not always in favour of a mechanic simply because it's fun if it breaks immersion.

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I'm 99.9% sure they'll surpass The Witcher 3 in every way.

I don't think "surpassing Witcher 3" - or not - is really all that relevant. Cyberpunk should first and foremost strive to offer its own experience, independent from what Witcher 3 does, both mechanically and narratively. Obviously they'll take pointers from how their engine was used and how they craft some of their stuff, but as far as the core experience, it should be very much separate. In my view Witcher 3 was far less an RPG than it was a cinematic action adventure and surpassing that would be to make the same thing better, while CP really should go past from far right to create something else entirely for better or worse.

There are of course individual elements to look at that absolutely need to be surpassed, like the character system that was not short of bare bones in Witcher 3 or the general gameplay variety. But as a whole, I don't think there should be any sort of competition between the franchises.
 

Kaebus2196

Guest
I don't think there should be any sort of competition between the franchises.

I agree with you 100% on that one. They are two completely separate story builds and gameplay styles after all. But who knows, maybe there will be an inside rivalry between Witcher fans and Cyberpunk fans. Though I assume a fan of one will be a fan of the other.
 
I think about this kind of thing too. It's some times fun. The thought I will add here is the setting can help weave together the gmaplay and story aspects. It's because as tech advances reality actually gets more and more computer like. Like all the menus you go through in an RPG that can all be a real element in the story. (You could make the options menu, a in world element even.)
 

Kaebus2196

Guest
I think about this kind of thing too. It's some times fun. The thought I will add here is the setting can help weave together the gmaplay and story aspects. It's because as tech advances reality actually gets more and more computer like. Like all the menus you go through in an RPG that can all be a real element in the story. (You could make the options menu, a in world element even.)

As in the player's user interface is actually what the player sees as well? That would be interesting. They've implemented similar ideas in Borderlands 2 and Warframe, which look pleasing visually, but realistically it doesn't work all that flawlessly since you have the exit and save game options which would be weird to see from the perspective of the character.
 
As in the player's user interface is actually what the player sees as well? That would be interesting. They've implemented similar ideas in Borderlands 2 and Warframe, which look pleasing visually, but realistically it doesn't work all that flawlessly since you have the exit and save game options which would be weird to see from the perspective of the character.
It is neat and I have to add not a uncommon thing. You have borderlands like you said, and you know every si-fi shooter gives you a hud just so they don't get dinged for putting a life bar on your screen. I recall one game that made your inventory your coat pockets and you would open your coat up like a flasher to check your inventory.


You can also do it with other gameplay elements too. Like if you don't want the player to go on a killing spree, then you can make up an excuse involving the players firmware. Or if you want the player to be able to go on a killing spree, then you can morph the setting to where such a thing is possible. (Don't ask what that setting is.)
 

Kaebus2196

Guest
Like if you don't want the player to go on a killing spree, then you can make up an excuse involving the players firmware.

Similar to RoboCops directives kind of? In the way that he is limited to a specific group of people that he is allowed to apprehend/eliminate and until a person registers in that category, he can do them no harm? Or am I understanding that wrong?
 
Similar to RoboCops directives kind of? In the way that he is limited to a specific group of people that he is allowed to apprehend/eliminate and until a person registers in that category, he can do them no harm? Or am I understanding that wrong?

I was thinking more based on location, but same idea. You could do a lot more with that too in a would you kindly way.
 
I agree with you 100% on that one. They are two completely separate story builds and gameplay styles after all. But who knows, maybe there will be an inside rivalry between Witcher fans and Cyberpunk fans. Though I assume a fan of one will be a fan of the other.

I don't think we could assume that really... it might be true for some, but not for others.

My brother for example does not really care for modern day or sci-fi games, he likes fantasy and that's about it when it comes to genre in games. For example, his favorit game is Skyrim, where since it came out in 2011 he has spent (according to him) somewhere around 75% out of all of his combined gametime on Skyrim... he thinks his gametime with Skyrim is somewhere around 2000-2500 hours... I would not be surpriced if it is much more then that though (since he is just like me in a lot of ways when it comes to games, being able to spend most of your awake hours on playing a game for days on end). Where as with a game like Fallout 3 and/or NV, games which are essentially Skyrim with guns, he probably spent 10-15 hours in it/them befor he uninstalled it/them. He did the same with Mass Effect, and he would probably do the same with Deus Ex (any version) or Cyberpunk 2077 once that comes out. Although... even though his preference for fantasy genre in games, he has never really been interested in the Witcher series... having cited that he does not really care for the combat system that he see (and has experienced with the first Witcher), and that what he has seen of W3 so far does not interest him or fall to his liking (he watch a lot of people on Twitch, which some of them do play Witcher games).
 

Kaebus2196

Guest
Perhaps this is true. Some are tailored to playing all games for one or two playthroughs before moving on, then others are tailored towards a specific genre or individual game that they will invest most of their game time into (such as myself). I hadn't considered this diversion of audience.

Combining Story With Gameplay

I'd like to see that the organizations/corporations that you work for express specific preferences as to how you perform an operation. Anarchist organizations and riot movements for example would prefer and favor a loud obnoxious approach to gather as much public attention to an issue as possible. On the other hand, corporations or news medias that are after the secrets of another corporation or government agency would much rather prefer that you remain undetected throughout your operation as not to accumulate negative attention towards your employers.
 
@Jimbob_2.1 CDPR have a lot on their plate, I don't know how they're going to go about it. I've never played the pen and paper rpg so I don't know all the classes but from what I've heard there's quite a few. if they do something similar to what dragon age origins did and give each character a different start depending on who you choose to play as that'd be cool. but we have no idea, and I've never played brothers: a tale of two sons but I think CDPR did an amazing job with the witcher 3 atmosphere and immersing the player into the world. not many games are like that imo, a game hasn't made me feel that way in a long time. so idk I think you're overthinking it lol

@kofeiiniturpa obviously they're going to listen to the feedback they've received from the witcher 3 good and bad and keep it in mind while making cyperpunk 2077. but I agree, the witcher 3 didn't feel like that much of a rpg because of the predetermined characters and all. that's why I'm super excited about cyberpunk 2077! I feel like I'll be playing it for years after it's released and spend hours making my unique character. ofc it's not going to be anything like the witcher 3 in terms of gameplay and storyline, what I mean is they'll push themselves further. e.g like how it's going to be bigger than the witcher 3

@s0u1r4z0r lol I can't see the witcher fans and cyberpunk fans hating each other, we all love CDPR and the work they do.so that's just silly, especially since we're all mature gamers here, you know? this ain't call of duty and halo lol
 
Hoping for such a feat is reasonable, but they are probably experimenting with as many ideas as we are here on the forums. It's really going to be more of an acquired taste with some of their features being brand new to the gaming genre.
I think it's really a difficult task.
The problem with CP, is those 10 "classes" + eventually male / female.

For exemple in Elder Scroll, you can play one of the 3 main "class" the game propose but each mission have to be balanced for those 3 classes, each mission can succeed or fail in each "way".

Here, it's 10 classes, 10 win / 10 fail to produce on each mission => lot less manpower on peripherical choice like in W3, with Gerald as a mono-hero.

This is half of the problems for a CP. Contrary to Elder Scrool stuff, which class is "how I kill bad guys", here classes is "how I get information". Netrunner would have access to the matrix, cop would have access to legal sources, corpos would have access to their corp's sources, fixer for street sources and rumors. It's a lot of dialogue to prepare.

Plus, if the game is long, nobody will wants to play 10 times to see everything.

I think there will remove the classes and forbid some, I don't really know how they would do there without scatering their ressources. Plus I can't think of a good way to go accross a good CP intrigue with a rocker :)

To me, really, a open character leads to least good stories. Because it cost so much to produce hero substance and "deepness" and control over the story you tell. That's also why most games with character creation will never be called having a good scenarios to my eyes.

A little like Final Fantasy III US (aka VI JP). You have 18 characters, have a little story for each but there you can only control one. That is half an hour / each character over 100 hours... Say 10 hours of personnal story to fell "mkay"..

Say they target the 100 hour mark, 10 chars, then they have to produce say 200 hours of story, at least, to make it credible. That's huge. And still 90% of the time you'll have generic stuff, generic replies, which is generally unsatisfaying (at least unsatisfaying the third time you go through the game, to see another path). They could make a game + write another one for the same price :/

They should allow tri-classing :)
 
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Class based systems are designed/intended for group play. Thus another player/NPC can cover the weaknesses any single class has. I.E. your tank can't heal, your mage can't tank.

As a solo player experience you really can't have a classic class based system. It needs to be skill based.
 
I think that they should go for something inbetween. Not all characters of a same role should have the same skills, let alone at the same level, but some of them could be hybrid classes, like for example a Media that is a war correspondent and has some knowledge of combat situations, maybe even some knowledge of guns (and the good thing of the Cyberpunk setting is that you don't need to go to, say, the middle east or any setting outside of NC to be one: there are combat zones and corporate wars in NC)... or maybe you're a Media with a smash the system attitude that did some activisim and some rioting during college and knows how to make and throw molotov cocktails... or maybe you have a similar background as Johnny Silverhand, or you're a netrunner that is also the world's best swordsman and pizza deliverer.

The way I see Cyberpunk, both the genre and the PnP with its roles, it should reflect the trope of the improbable hero/anti-hero. Sure, it is fun playing a biomechanic one-man army, but I'm more interested in flawed characters that aren't made for action, and are thrown outside of their comfort zones, but through smarts, luck, connections, attitude or drive, can come on top of the difficult situations they'll find in their personal crusade.
 
To an extent CP2020 already has this.
Each role has only one (critical ... but yet only one) skill the other roles have no access to.
 
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